17-04-2003 02:30									#61
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I think 23 Immortals is about what we are facing (altogether at this point). My guess as to what they could have reasonably put together by this time was 22, 25 max. That they didn't wait to mass them saves us a huge amount of trouble (like losing everything W of the spinebreaker). For RP, they get to give us information that doesn't help us at all and seem friendly. Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

We still stand to lose Arashi and Monsoon, but against 23 (given that 5-6 of them would be up near the bottleneck at this point) we can probably hold Tempest. At that point we're producing more Pikes/Horses/Med Inf than they can produce Warriors, and it's just a matter of time. On their own Vox can't have enough commerce to keep upgrading more than 1 Warrior per turn, and I very much doubt any of the other civs are willing to fund their war indefinitely (especially if they don't make major gains with the first assault).

GoW and ND both need as much gold as they can get, RP doesn't want to be drained when they are facing war from the north, and Lego seems to want to at least keep a reasonable research rate.

	17-04-2003 02:35									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think 23 Immortals is about what we are facing (altogether at this point). My guess as to what they could have reasonably put together by this time was 22, 25 max. That they didn't wait to mass them saves us a huge amount of trouble (like losing everything W of the spinebreaker). For RP, they get to give us information that doesn't help us at all and seem friendly. Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

Would be fun to ask for that screenshot. but they would of course ask for something in return.

quote: Originally posted by Aeson We still stand to lose Arashi and Monsoon, but against 23 (given that 5-6 of them would be up near the bottleneck at this point) we can probably hold Tempest. At that point we're producing more Pikes/Horses/Med Inf than they can produce Warriors, and it's just a matter of time. On their own Vox can't have enough commerce to keep upgrading more than 1 Warrior per turn, and I very much doubt any of the other civs are willing to fund their war indefinitely (especially if they don't make major gains with the first assault).

I guess it all depends if they strike with that group of 11 or wait a turn to have 15 or two turns to have 20, right? We shall see, we shall see.

quote: Originally posted by Aeson GoW and ND both need as much gold as they can get, RP doesn't want to be drained when they are facing war from the north, and Lego seems to want to at least keep a reasonable research rate.

Yes, since GoW and ND both have or will have given us 200 gold, they probably wouldn't be able to afford giving cash to Vox. Whicih means...lego or RP. Any coincidence that RP couldn't afford Feudalism when in the same timeframe they are expecting war on their continent?

	17-04-2003 03:16									#63
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The longer they wait the more Pikes we get there though. It works out to be better for them if they hit with all 11 right now, and have the reinforcements cover the wounded. We will have another Pike from Tempest , the Pike from Arashi, catapult from Monsoon (unless we can get into the city view to rush them this turn), and 2 more Med Infantry all coming if they wait a turn.

If all they can add to their stack is 5 Immortals, it doesn't help cover our reinforcements.

	17-04-2003 03:20									#64
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quote: Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

Sure, no need to antagonise them.
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As I have said before, I'm covinced this war is funded by BoB, unless they unite (and even then), they are facing what could be some turbulent times..
Did they encourage Vox and maybe gave them some gold, could be, but none of them are paying 30 or 40 gold gold, just to see us loose, without being certain, they themselves, will gain from it.

	17-04-2003 03:24									#65
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Any thought's on disclosing some of this info to ND (it wasn't an official PM, so we don't really betray anyone, do we?).

Or could it be trap, or are they even hoping we would

	17-04-2003 03:25									#66
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I am very glad that they are advancing into blackness and cannot do any kind of planning.

They cannot see the full importance of the Spine Breakers to our situation. They don't know where Hurricane is, let alone how big she is.

Now they can see EotS at size 10 on the F11 screen, and that might just make them decide to go after her with all possible speed.

	17-04-2003 03:25									#67
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I'll write something to them tomorrow (tonight not fresh enough), and indeed, I too would appear to try to be their friends. I would also say that as said, we are anticipating to possibly lose a few cities (we mentioned this before), but that's it. And of course, we will lose more in this war then if allowed to peacefully expand undisturbed, but we simply have not enough land left, they are probably right our continent is the one most cramped for space (I wouldn't tell them we're smaller then them yet).

Further, I'd like to try to find out more about the GoW. I'd like to get some subtle comments in to stear up emotions, they have given me an opening with their comment on GoW diplomacy. Plus, a simple question to ask how large their navy is could also raise some eyebrows, a navy could be used to invade us, but also to pass RPs defenses, or to avoid ND in getting to RP.

Legos: I'm not sure yet. I'm certainly going to mention the pyramids, something along the lines that they may be right in them becoming too powerful. But never appear less then amicable with Lego, lay the initiative on their side.

Also, I was wondering why I now (I got last message 2 hours ago, 5 minutes before posting it on this forum) get a reply to an e-mail 3 days old. Maybe our last chat with Lego had some impact. So... very careful here.

Oh, scorched earth by Vox: we don't mind, let them burn down their own whipped cities if they want to. If they want to pillage improvements, and for each tile lose a unit, that would be superb, actually. Also, I'm sure I'll mention to RP it is strange that Vox has contingency plans for when they need to retreat. They don't seem so sure of theirselves anymore as when they sneak attacked Grog.

Other things they mentioned: they say Bob will be at war within 10 turns of discovering Chivalry. They give a bit of info, I want to pick into that, and ask for more specific things. Right now, they have indeed given us only things we already knew, and in this case, I'll tell them (gently, of course). Specific questions would be if any NAPs are signed to their knowledge, and if they are sure ND is going to take on GoW instead of them.

Also interesting that they admit that once ND is being attacked by GoW, they will move in with their forces. They admit that their opportunists (again nothing new, we certainly would have done the same in their situation).

There may be some more info we could get out of them, I agree it is coloured to say the least, but I doubt they will lie to us directly, so we might use part of it. I would also like us to start to consider each turn what info on our war we give out to other teams, both GoW, Lego and RP are interested, but it would not be a good idea to give different info to all of them, they would certainly start to talk amongst each other to find out what the other have got. Right now, I would simply say that we are starting to see their immortals approaching, and are anxiously waiting to see if our defenses will hold.

BTW, I also think we need to start trying to smalltalk a little with ND, to find out their views, and to let them know that we like them, maybe most of all because they don't start to bullsh!t us each time we talk. Give them some info on the Vox war, I'm sure they'll be interested as well.

DeepO

	17-04-2003 03:31									#68
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I still think we should keep our mouth's closed about just about everything now. Definitely no more trying to play one team off on another... it will almost surely backfire on RP doing so, and has already backfired on us.

	17-04-2003 03:46									#69
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RE: cities
Do include that they newly build border town (look-outs) and not core cities, we need to be percieved superior (in force) to Vox at all times. If thay think some extra gold might swing the balance, they are gonna be more inclined to do so, when they see us starting to have any doubts.
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I was thinking about contacting ND (just saying hi), but I can't find an angle without making it too obvious.
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I agree with Aeson, there is no real reason to stir up things, something will happen, no matter what we do.
The more neutral, amicable, sincere we look (to all teams), the better.

	17-04-2003 03:49									#70
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I like the 'dumb' approach.

Please say nothing specific re the defenses holding. See, that might tell them something they don't know. No one yet has a clue that we have a chance to stop Vox dead in their tracks at our borders. Best to keep it that way.

All that should be said re the military situation is something like... We are examining ways to overcome Vox and take the war to their home.

That might work very well. It might make Vox quite nervous when it is passed on, and it will be passed on, I think. It might make Vox pull back or hold back some forces.

	17-04-2003 04:03									#71
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You have a point, Aeson. I just read your post in the turn thread, and I agree. However shutting up completely is not going to do us any good, as it also was one of the reasons why we were attacked by Vox (driven by other teams, probably). We need to keep some diplomatic continuity going, although of course nobody forces us to chat each day

DeepO

	17-04-2003 04:12									#72
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nye: I was not going to tell them we are planning to keep all of Vox's forces out of our territory, defending the one entry point into our belly (like GK said).

I just realised something: we have given Vox a description of our lands, so they aren't exactly fighting into the lands here. That belly comment sounds suspicously as coming from someone, knowing that that mountain ridge is indeed aimed at our belly. RP wouldn't have been handed that description of ourse, would it?

Alva: the last deal should give you an point where you can simply say hi to ND: simply thank them for their money, and mention that, BTW, both GoW and RP seem to be specially interested in our relation with Vox. Ask them about chivalry, perhaps. Any information is okay, without mentioning anything real to them.
But as we haven't mentioned anything specific to them (to all the other teams we have), we should give them some update, or they only have the information in the public forum to go on. I wouldn't mind to tell them (nor anyone else, because the rest have realized it by now), that Grog saved the day, and that slaughtering him has given us enough time to rush our defenses, hopefully good enough defenses.

DeepO

	17-04-2003 04:26									#73
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Hmm, not bad. Will have to wait until tomorrow though, havn't slept for some 30 odd hours..

If someone else would be bored of course, go right ahead

	17-04-2003 04:51									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO nye: I was not going to tell them we are planning to keep all of Vox's forces out of our territory, defending the one entry point into our belly (like GK said). I just realised something: we have given Vox a description of our lands, so they aren't exactly fighting into the lands here. That belly comment sounds suspicously as coming from someone, knowing that that mountain ridge is indeed aimed at our belly. RP wouldn't have been handed that description of ourse, would it?

Excellent observation. Just goes to show how much care should be taken regarding what seem like casual statements.

OK. The belly. Hmmm. That could also mean an attempt to go down the 'gullet' between the ranges straight at EotS.

OTOH, saying something like 'hoping defences hold' tells them something about our outlook, and hense gives a clue about our plans. Possibly.

	17-04-2003 04:52									#75
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Should we offer them Feudalism again?

Maybe offer it for 150 or something, since a couple turns later.

Play it like we are desperate for the cash.

	17-04-2003 05:02									#76
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Mainly I just mean being quiet about 'so and so said this' and the like. RP doesn't need to know GoW is telling us theya re funding Vox, Lego doesn't need to hear that RP is trying to get us allied against them anymore... stuff like that. We should still try to make trades of course.

	17-04-2003 05:07									#77
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Here's a thought:
We tell RP that we're expecting to lose a few small cities. RP will get the message to Vox, that they should hit those cities.
A preferable situation would be this: we tell RP that we saw BetaHound's "war report" on the public forum, telling that they've got units only 5 tiles from our capital, and that we hope that this was just a statement, and that they're going to attack border towns instead of our capital, because if they do, we're in trouble. RP relays this message to Vox, and they march their immortals to EotS, moving off the mountains at some point and allowing us a lot more turns to take shots at them.

	17-04-2003 05:15									#78
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Devious, but I like it, you've done this before havn't you

	17-04-2003 08:19									#79
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Shiber's last post... devious.

I think the PR angle is huge at this point.

I like Shiber's idea... that is called the "backchannel." We might want one or two more of those.

In addition, we need to select team members to play several emotional roles in public and in private:

1. Afraid: "Jesus Christ, an Immortal onslaught!!! We might get massacred... would you consider letting me join your team if GS is out?"

2. Nonchalant: "Yeah, we might lose some border towns... but we shall overcome, have no doubt."

3. Psycho Warmonger: "We shall destroy the Vox infidels... the land will run red with their blood... we will root out and exterminate them, until their seed shall exist no more."

FUD= Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

IBM perfected FUD in a business sense in the 70s, and Microsoft and Oracle are their current inheritors.

The trick is: All of this communcication is TOTALLY MANAGED. Nothing goes out to the world, either publicly or privately, that is not vetted and approved by the team.

	17-04-2003 17:28									#80
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I like the idea of passing each comment posted publicly through a process of inspection and approval. Perhaps it would be easier if we adopted Togas's (eew...) system and posted some thread that would centralize the information related to PR, e.g. what we cannot say and what we're advised to say, who is playing which character etc'.

	20-04-2003 18:08									#81
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okay, I realised I still had to answer Godking's last message. As it's obvious that we can use it for PR, I'm posting it here. Please comment all you like, when I get back this evening after visiting my parents and sisters, I'll post it to them.

Oh, one request: this is unoffical information, and has to appear impulsive, and common. I know there will be grammar mistakes and typos in, but for once, keep them in if they don't alter the meaning of what we want to say. It makes it much more real, I'm not exactly known for writing flawlessly. If this was an official PM, things would be different, but the whole point in trying to set up a back channel is to make it appear casual.

quote: Hi Rich, Sorry to be this late in answering you, with the massive posting on our board, and crunch-time at work, I totally forgot to answer you. Only now, when cleaning up my in-box did I realise I didn't respond before. My sincerest apologies, I really didn't want that. Thanks for the update on Vox's troops, we had come to similar conclusions... and it doesn't look too bright. I hope we will be able to hold on, as said, we're fully expecting to lose a couple of cities, not much more. The only question is which cities... We have better production then Vox, so if this war takes long enough, we should be able to reverse the direction troops are walking in, but it is very hard to see when, or even if this is going to happen. A lot will depend on luck, which we can use about now. And of course, if Vox would make silly mistakes, even if that doesn't seem very likely. They have played their cards very well, so far. Luckily, they are fighting a war far from their core, which they can't keep undefended to be a too juicy target for Bobian civs. GoW has made a few remarks on the public forum, commenting on how lovely those undefended cities look, and we're a bit puzzled if that was meant for our cities, or Vox's cities (they are in visual range of both of us). I don't really understand them, sure, trash talking is fun, but they can't seriously believe we (Vox or GS) will just give them our border towns without a fight. And a couple of horsies or spears aren't really a concern of ours, now that we face stacks of immortals Don't think we were too well-prepared for this war, Vox had us fooled into being our friends. It's no secret we had the smallest military force in-game, but this has changed since then. What saved us, was Grog. Sure, you might think that the trash-talking about him was a bit too much in the beginning, but the reason why he was so important to us, is that he was our sole protection against Vox agression. Vox couldn't attack us before killing him, and by doing so, we had 5 turns warning before they could move their stacks from behind Grog to next to our cities. In those 5 turns, we basically started building our defense, which also explains why our turns take 24 hours, and the posting on the board is so hectic. Given our empire and the limited time, I think we did well. If it will be enough is a totally different question, but we'll see. Nothing more we can do about that, we shouldn't have neglected our defenses before. We won't make the same mistake again I can imagine you're afraid that war will break out on Bob, as it was our idea the moment we learned GoW and ND were so close. Who will team up with whom is something we have no information about, but are very curious in finding out. But, the little contact we had with those teams seems to confirm that something is going to happen, although we're not sure what. Also, lately, GoW has not exactly been a reliable diplomatic source, so we can't even rely on what we did hear. You might know we received maps from Bob from Vox before the war broke out, it was one of their attempts to get cash for immortal upgrades. Which also means we can now see your situation, and I have to say, it's looking good for RP. You did a good job walling off 'your' part of the continent, although you do have a very large border to protect. ND, being the aggresive strategists they are, could give you a hard time if they focus on one or a few points. I agree that normally, they should lose, however, as you said, there are large advantages in having a close, easily defendable core. If they combine strengths with GoW... could become nasty. Don't make the same mistake as we did, defending is in Civ3 better then attacking, if it's one stack against one other stack. The problem is that defenders have to protect everything, where attackers only need to attack one point. (well, that was not our mistake, we simply had too few defenders ) One thing we have difficulty understanding is RP's unwillingness to acquire Feudalism from us. If our calculations are right, Bob can have chivalry before our NDAs run out, so if everybody honors their deals with us (okay, not really a given in this game), your defenses might become a lot less good then you anticipated. Now if we would be asking for exuberant prices I could understand, but that is not the case, our price has been very fair. Oh, BTW, would you be interested in acquiring Chivalry from us? Now that we don't really need the cash anymore, we are discussing to get to Chivalry ourselves, meaning it would be even faster in being released to the world. However, seeing the disaster (to our treasury, anyway) of last tech trading, no way are we going to start on it if nobody is interested in buying it from us. And the Vox war is a slowmover war, so it's not really a necessity to get knights for them (they could help in attacking, but that's a long way off, we need defense now) Lego: yes indeed... while all the other teams are, or will be in war soon, they're happily sitting on their continent, with the pyramids to double their expansion. We have no real information on the size of their continent, however we made a few calculations (now that we have maps of Bob, that is one of the things we can), and it looks like they were given a 2-civ continent at least. Bob has always been a 4-civ continent, and our continent is, what size is concerned, a 1-civ continent... the RNG wasn't exactly friendly to us, pitting us next to Persia with too few space to expand to. The next few turns will be instrumental in our war, as it will show us how much we'll lose to Vox, and by what time we should be able to get to our feet again. We're still optimistical, in that nobody of our team thinks this will be the end of GS, and that in the end, Vox will pay for breaking our trust, and treaties. Let's hope we're right Any way, the game has stopped to be even remotely boring, this is fun!

Damn, gotta run, and this is not completely finished yet. More tonight, hopefully.

DeepO

	20-04-2003 19:03									#82
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Great idea... a tocuh too much the "whipped dog" though.

Show some GS backbone, man!!

"I don;t know how yet, but we will defend, and we will have our revenge!!"

	20-04-2003 19:30									#83
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quote: quote: quote: and it doesn't look too bright. I hope we will be able to hold on, as said, we're fully expecting to lose a couple of cities, not much more. quote: A lot will depend on luck, which we can use about now. And of course, if Vox would make silly mistakes, even if that doesn't seem very likely. quote: Now that we don't really need the cash anymore

Aren't these two a little contradictory?
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Love the part on chivalry though
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What is the reason behind your thing on letting RP think we (very) vulnerable?

	20-04-2003 19:34									#84
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quote: GoW has made a few remarks on the public forum, commenting on how lovely those undefended cities look, and we're a bit puzzled if that was meant for our cities,

Not sure if we should mention this. No one but GoW really knows those cities are undefended, no need to invite others,is there

	21-04-2003 02:18									#85
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At any rate, this message gets postponed to tomorrow. Actually, I was pressed this afternoon, I was going to adjust a few things, but ran out of time, and just posted what I had so far.

I agree on the whipped dog thing, maybe it was a bit too much. However, this was specially designed like that, my last message was a bit too optimistically, I heared later, I wanted to offset that. I'll rewrite tomorrow, being more modestly optimistically.

Alva: I don't want to say to RP we are very vulnerable, but that we were, but are regaining strength. The idea was that if RP would be somehow sponsoring Vox, they would be somewhat rewarded for their cash, but wouldn't want to keep on doing it, as it would make Vox momentarily too strong, and later on would be lost money anyway.
But, somehow, I have to say that, although cash isn't really a problem anymore (which isn't completely true, it may not be a problem, but all extra cash will be used asap), we would still like it if they would send us some cash for Feudalism. It's contradictory in itself: I can't say to them: "if you don't give your money to us, you will need to give it to GoW instead, who might later on attack you", OTOH, I also can't say "We need your cash". I was still thinking on making it sound better, but the general idea is to have a ple for selling Feud, while not showing as we need the money (which would mean they won't give it to us)

undefended cities: I don't care if everybody knows that our, and possibly Vox's cities are undefended. Nothing they can do about it without marines, and GK claims to be a warmonger, he should know. Maybe I should mention it more explicitely, though.

And, the reason behind letting RP think we're weak, or at least weakish, is that this would go directly to Vox, most likely. It would make Vox more confident in themselves, and overconfident people make mistakes, or lose care. The problem is that I need to tell it in such a way that RP doesn't get any ideas o invading themselves, so I have to laugh about the punity of GoW attack force, if they would land one.

I'm not certain if this is what we want to say to RP, though... this is quite difficult.

DeepO

	21-04-2003 02:34									#86
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Why not split the messages over severall days, each addressing one major point.
Might cut on the possibility of confusion and sending the wrong message/idea.

	21-04-2003 02:37									#87
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Maybe, but it would also look like I was working him, instead of posting all what's on my mind, in a semi-chaotic fashion. I want to appear a target for Togas' puppet-string-pulling, as it will mean we will be able to pull their strings too. The more chaotic, the better...

DeepO

	21-04-2003 03:05									#88
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Organised chaos is very difficult to achieve

	21-04-2003 06:49									#89
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I think saying that we might lose a couple cities depending on how the situation develops would be both more accurate and better for appearing not especially strong yet but not too weak either. I don't want to seem so weak that RP might consider it worth their while to try sending a suicide galley or two with swordsmen on, because we have essentially nothing to defend us against a successful suicide galley invasion in the South.

	21-04-2003 07:34									#90
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Did you all get the sense I was trying to convey in my 'diplo thoughts' email?

A little bit of a change: false bravado, and taunting.

Sort of a Sun Tzu thing... make them think you are weak when you are strong, by "pretending" to be strong.

I could go either way here in terms of the acting.