14-06-2003 01:21									#121
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Trade the damn map.

While I'm glad to see that everyone has broken out of SP-mode (i.e., galley exploration is a negotiable item), I just don;t think the map is that important at this point.

As previously noted, who the hell is gonna try an intercontintal invasion? If anything, I believe everybody else has gotta be scared sh*tless of what GS is planning post-Vox.

( "post-Vox"... I like the look of that!)

	14-06-2003 11:33									#122
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I am thinking we should inform RP that any galley found south of Eliopolis stands to be sunk. We will be open to WM trades, and thus gallies are not required to round our coasts. In that case, any gallies seen could be seen as highly likely hostiles.

Am I right?

	14-06-2003 11:36									#123
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Agreed.

What are we going to ask for in exchange for our map?

I wonder... would it be worth it to gift our map to the entire world?

Here, world, here it is, the vastness of the grand Stormian empire in all it's glory! Behold, and despair! See? What the hell are you all so worried about?

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 11:45									#124
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I don't think gifting it would be good. Smacks too much of knuckling under.

I think we should tell RP to keep their shorts on and then trade with a bonus for them. The bonus would be, after trading with GoW, they will get the coast of Lego.

	14-06-2003 11:46									#125
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Sounds like a plan.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 14:40									#126
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Shouldn't we ask politely before we even hint at threats? Something along the lines of, "with the current war with Vox still going on, and in light of GoW's landing on our coast a while back, we would greatly appreciate it if you would not face us with the distraction of a foreign galley in our waters."

	14-06-2003 16:55									#127
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Perhaps we should couple that with a WM trade, to give them a real excuse to stop the scouting.

	14-06-2003 18:18									#128
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am thinking we should inform RP that any galley found south of Eliopolis stands to be sunk. We will be open to WM trades, and thus gallies are not required to round our coasts. In that case, any gallies seen could be seen as highly likely hostiles. Am I right?

I was kinda hoping the RP galley would be allowed to explore. They seem to be RPing with the galleys a bit and I was hoping to play along with this. I was going to offer my services as a guide through GS water and point out tourinst attractions. Just to make things a bit friendlier between us.

They may still want their galley to pass through our waters if they get our map. But the develpments regarding GoW must affect things.

	14-06-2003 18:21									#129
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I don't think there is any danger letting RP move their galley along our shores. Lets just sell/trade our maps first. Might be the best thing that could happen to us if RP lands any troops.

	25-06-2003 14:14									#130
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More then once, RP just pisses me off. Now what do they propose: we withdraw our ship from your territorial waters, and in return you give us your WM? Oh, great... at least GoW had the decency to see that crossing someone's territorial waters was intself somewhat aggresive, and should be compensated.

But... we need to be calm, and friendly. So I would respond: "whether you withdraw or not is not our concern, as you are indeed somewhat threatening us, but not our fish. However we wouldn't want you to lose any turns exploring when we can help you in your search... Stormia is indeed rather slim, but long, it would take you considerable time to get to the other side, time which may be better spend on other tours. So... are those saved turns with your galley worth anything to you in gold? Also, we would be interested in exchanging maps, don't forget that our map also has more information on it regarding sea lanes for which our lighthouse shows the way..."

DeepO

	25-06-2003 15:20									#131
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That's BS. Stormia is thin compared to Bob, but by scouting, they still can only get a glimpse of ~15% of Southern Stormia. We should make that very clear to them.
I'm also beginning to suspect that GoW wants to whore off our WM.

	25-06-2003 15:21									#132
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Let's explain to RP that Stormia bulges in the south, and just by scouting with a galley they can only see ~15% of the South of Stormia.
Edit: I would also offer to sell our WM at a loan.

Last edited by Shiber on 25-06-2003 at 15:31

	25-06-2003 15:25									#133
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We should send a galley of ours in their waters as long as they are in ours. And no, we should not announce this.

	25-06-2003 16:24									#134
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Fully agree SR. Let's see if they respond... we could even, at the time that we reach them, say: hey, we will try to stay away from your fish

(BTW, isn't it about time our galleys start to do some serious exploring? if we wait until astro, our advantage will be gone)

DeepO

	25-06-2003 18:05									#135
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What a bullshit "offer."

They're well south of our galley fleet now, aren't they? Damn! I would LOVE to block their galley - we have the ships to do it.

Sending a galley of ours into their waters isn't much of a response, given that we already have their map.

I really wish we'd taken a harder line on this (I wanted to threaten to sink them when they first annouced their little exploration mission). They are being ****** about it now, since they think they are ENTITLED to scout our coast.

So, if we can get galleys in position to block them, let's do it. If we can't, I say we threaten to sink them (bluff) and see what they say.

-Arrian

	25-06-2003 18:27									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian What a bullshit "offer." They're well south of our galley fleet now, aren't they? Damn! I would LOVE to block their galley - we have the ships to do it. Sending a galley of ours into their waters isn't much of a response, given that we already have their map. I really wish we'd taken a harder line on this (I wanted to threaten to sink them when they first annouced their little exploration mission). They are being ****** about it now, since they think they are ENTITLED to scout our coast. So, if we can get galleys in position to block them, let's do it. If we can't, I say we threaten to sink them (bluff) and see what they say. -Arrian

The "response" galley would be there not to explore, but to annoy them. And I concur, if we can block their galley, we should do so. Even a threat to sink it could be discussed.

	25-06-2003 19:33									#137
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Nah... a threat to sink would be too much. We have to remain friends, this is more a provocation then something else. They're seeing how far they can push us before we bite, and I'm very sure that if we would answer too agressively, they take it to the rest of Bob... RP needs us to be the bad apple, if we get too friendly with everyone, the chances of ND + GoW gangraping them is too high

DeepO

	25-06-2003 19:55									#138
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Then why don't we look if we can block it?

	25-06-2003 20:28									#139
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Their offer is pretty lame, but look at it from their point of view. They send a galley out to explore our coast. We suddenly offer to sell our WM. They probably think that we're selling it now because once they've charted our coast, combined with what they have probably got from Vox (capitol view, which includes more than the 21 squares around the capitol, plus what they saw in the war) then there isn't going to be much left to see. So they are indirectly pointing out that in trading our WM, we aren't giving them anything that their galley won't get for them, so the only benefit to them is saving the use of a galley from some turns, which isn't needed anywhere else at the moment really.

I notice that Aeson(?) estimated a few days ago that allowing for what Vox knows plus what is visible from the coast, only about 3 tiles would remain uncovered. And now it is being said that only 15% of Stormia is visible from the coast. Both can be true at the same time of couse, but the latter looks rather misleading, assuming RP already have Vox's maps.

No-one can know exactly how much of our territory will remain hidden once the coast is scouted, but they can probably figure out that there is very little, so why should they pay for it?

Although having said that, their diplmacy sucks (worse than ours is often said to...)

	25-06-2003 20:30									#140
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I think we should play passive here, and just trade our maps for their maps. At best I thought we could get about 100g value from our map, and even if there is a possibility we still could (not likely), 100g isn't worth making an enemy over. We will be getting GoW's map (that's a pretty even trade at this point), ~20-30g value from Lego, and some terrain updates from th eother teams. We got about half the value expected, which isn't that bad given the scale of the trade. Indirect value from this trade could be immense though.

Once teams have our maps, we drop quite a bit below Lego on the 'biggest target' list, maybe even below RP (long term definitely, short term, probably not). That's worth a lot at this point, maybe even survival given GoW's comments about a coallition going giant slaying (in regards to Lego, but for all the other teams know at this point, we are a giant too).

	25-06-2003 20:54									#141
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if we can, sure. We need galleys exploring anyway, right now they are doing nothing. I would like to have a couple of galleys on the lookout, and a couple of them exploring, if that would be feasible. For the moment, they shouldn't go too far, though, so we can return in time of invasion need (and upgrade need, although that's only a secondary thing to watch out for)

DeepO

	25-06-2003 20:56									#142
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Bah, I would still try to ask a little money from them. Don't forget they will very likely communicate what we ask them to other Bobians, if these hear rumours of RP getting our WM 'for free' simply because they have a galley close by, they'll think twice of paying us anything.

DeepO

	25-06-2003 21:09									#143
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Nobody is paying us anything already.

ND says no. GoW is trading their Map. Lego is the only one willing to give us any gold compensation, and then only as a consideration in a seperate trade agreement. We might as well trade our maps with ND and RP, as we aren't going to get anything from them anyways. GoW was giving away Feudalism for free, they'll do the same with our map. Why give them the free rep boost instead of taking it ourselves?

	25-06-2003 21:41									#144
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Agreed. Let's get the whole map thing behind us... it's our production and research that are much more important.

	26-06-2003 03:45									#145
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It is extremely cheeky of RP. We've been forced into a WM trade as they are going to know most of our territory anyway and if that wasn't enough they now want the map for free?

Not that we should react to this, but I don't think we should give them the map, they can scout as much as they like and it isn't an issue as were not at war anymore.

I'd say let them know how cheeky they're being then just let them scout but I'd like to hear what MSS has to say? Will post in the diplo thread.

	26-06-2003 04:13									#146
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Add it to the list of 'reasons to cross the channel', and don't let on that it's making us upset.

We might want to start thinking about how to win this game again. ND and GoW want NAP's... and we could conceivably hit RP hard enough to take a good portion of their production out in just a couple turns once we get some Knights upgraded.

We had warning time to get prepared for Vox's invasion, but we can hit some important RP cities (new madrid, barcelona) giving them only 1 turn's notice. Done right, Toledo would fall a turn after those two cities, and we have a stack of Knights covered by Pikes on Mountains next to their Capitol...

	26-06-2003 05:09									#147
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That sounds extremely well. I'm all for it.

OPD: I think we should go in the offensive and sell our maps, even if it's only for their maps in return. If we let RP scout and sell these maps, they get the good boy bonus, while we keep sitting on the bad boy position. "Look, we sell you maps of those bastard, who denied it to the world so far". I'd like to deny this privilege to RP. And with a plan to hit them within the next 20 turns it's easier to swallow my anger and keep quiet.

	26-06-2003 06:20									#148
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quote: but we can hit some important RP cities

All for it, let's just make sure that this time we are prepared diplomatically. Some strategies here are needed too.

	26-06-2003 08:11									#149
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This diplomacy needs to be handeled very, very carefully. Any sudden, eager, or premature change in our position could easily blow it.

The first thing to do would be to work out a time line. Any NAPs could be coaxed out of us as DDay approached. Some delays would be possible while we made our collective decision. Ideally, NAPs with GoW and ND would be ratified about 3 turns prior to DDay (that allows for any last minute glitches from their side).

	26-06-2003 10:16									#150
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I woul suggest a reply to RP along the lines of, "Has it occurred to you how suspiciously like extortion your most recent message sounds? In essence, you seem to be threatening to clog our sea lanes and rob us of our fish unless we give you our map for free (including information your galley could not obtain merely from examining our coast). Such choices of words, however innocent their intent, have genuine potential to create an international incident.

"Up until now, our interest in friendship has caused us to accept your galley's presence without complaint. But be assured that the Gathering Storm navy has means (strictly through the peaceful movement of our own ships) to limit your galley's ability to explore safely should we choose to exercise those means."

I seroiously doubt that BigFree thought through how his message (especially the role-play aspects) might be interpreted. With a little luck, maybe RP will be willing to backpedal a little bit in our favor.