21-04-2003 08:14									#91
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I'd just as soon lay low. From Jon's conversation with NYE, it sounds like they're already probably going to do something that will probably be suicidal for them (going ahead and attacking Arashi now), so why rock the boat?

	21-04-2003 15:34									#92
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Hmmm... maybe it's best to postpone this message for after Vox' next turn. However, that would also mean we can't influence GoW via this channel, and maybe that's more important then Vox.

Theseus, I agree that by screaming that you are strong, others could get the feeling that in reality you're weak, however we have done enough of that so far, and the few sporadic remarks as to the strength of Vox have made us look weak already, I think. The reason I don't want to scream here is because this is RP, and already they are using their personal preferences to direct diplomacy (well, GodKing not, but Togas). I don't want to become even more arrogant in their eyes.

Maybe it's better to do this first: What do we want to achieve through the back channel now?
1. I don't think we really need it, so simply some communication to keep the contact alive would be best, I think. Nothing heavy, simply some friendly chitchat.
2. Vox: I'd like to say to RP that Vox is strong, for the only reason that perhaps they won't sponsor Vox anymore, as they think they have reached their goal: GS being so involved in the war that we can't build or advance relative to them
3. GoW-ND: any more tension on Bob is perfect, we should, very slightly of course, push them some more. Maybe Togas can't be pushed, but GK can
4. RP defensive situation: GK is a warmonger as he says himself, the comments on RP having a long defense line which is relatively easy to attack were just to put some more fear in their hearts. Plus, it can double as a friendly wanring not to get in the same situation as us
5. We having their map, and telling we have (GS+Vox combined) less then their territory: let them worry about their own territory, instead of thinking we have too mch space
6. Lego: Very friendly, but I don't see a reason to not mention the pyramids, and the size of their continent. If RP would start seeing Lego as the biggest competitors instead of us, maybe we can fly beneath the score radar again
7. Also related to the ND-GoW tension: mention that chivalry is coming fast, so ask for Feudalism deal. Mentioning we don't need it, but would want more gold any way is needed, however I agree that last message wasn't perfect in that respect

That's about it... any more things we want to say? Or do you not agree with something said here?

DeepO

BTW:

quote: Originally posted by alva Organised chaos is very difficult to achieve

You should see my desk

	05-06-2003 18:31									#93
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I know it sounds daft but I think we should look into having better relations with RP. Once the dust settles they will be w/o their main ally (probably why their so pissed) on bob where I believe gow and ND and tight.

If vox and RP were to be serious long term partners is it really that improbable that we could take vox's place.

Even if this is too ridiculous we need to look more at our international relations. If we carry on the way we are I believe a bobian alliance against us is on the cards and I think that others may agree with me.

	05-06-2003 20:40									#94
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Don't forget that 3-way alliances are quite unstable, compared to a duo...

I just wonder in which way we could hope to improve relations.

	05-06-2003 20:59									#95
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If we only had a tech to trade...

We could always start researching engineering - it'd give us something to trade for theology and chivalry at least, and sell to others for cash. The benefit to us of crossing rivers unimpeded is probably less use now (it would have been handy before) but could still come in useful for moving troops east-west in the event of a surprise landing.

	05-06-2003 22:08									#96
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I was thinking more along the lines of just contacting them to cool the air. Then maybe something like we believe vox are/were you main ally, GS see no reason from our side why we can't establish closer relations, maybe leading to a similar sort of relationship you had with vox.

Although it's important to hear what other people think. Especially if there is a concensus view that RP should be our next target.

	05-06-2003 22:17									#97
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I just read up on the RP diplo log and wow, there was some info in there I hadn't been aware of. Interesting reading.

I think I like Dejon, btw. Seems like a stand-up guy, and someone who we can deal with. Unfortunately, he's military, not diplo.

-Arrian

	05-06-2003 22:44									#98
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From my experience Godking's a decent guy too, open minded at least.

	05-06-2003 23:06									#99
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Yeah, seems like it. I actually just PM'd him. I was going to respond to his "why hasn't anyone mentioned Legoland" comment in the public forum, but then thought better of it, and PM'd him instead.

My basic response was "well, yeah, but what the hell can we do about it?"

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 04:42									#100
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Arrian, can you post that PM in the log, together with his response? That's just as well diplo communication

And I agree, GK surely seems like a decent guy, the only problem is that you don't know what are his opinions, and what are RP's. I'm pretty sure he got a remark from Togas on his Lego comment... BTW, IIRC, he posted that to me before, in nearly the exact same words. This is not something that happened last night, possibly RP is planning something.

DeepO

	06-06-2003 17:08									#101
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I have a PM from GK concerning RP. While talking about SPDG stuff I mentioned that I thought vox were RP's main allies, he replied with something about how they had helped vox a little at the start but not millitarily and then goes on to talk about RP's millitary. Apparently they have alot of defensive units.

	06-06-2003 17:19									#102
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Interesting. This could affect our strategy when we finally make time to deal with RP.
We have to land near a city that is distant enough from their northern border that they will not be able to move defensive units from their border towns by the time that we can attack after our landing. We should advance into positions from where we could attack several different tiles, thus forcing RP to spread their defenses across these tiles. We also have to carry a lot of bombardment units with us, because with so many units they'll be a hard nut to crack.

	06-06-2003 17:35									#103
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PMs posted in the log thread, as requested.

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 17:46									#104
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Here's what he actually said. I no longer have the pm I sent him. This seems a bit weird to me though I just said a few things about vox being their main ally and how I'd like to see better relations between us and RP then get this reply which ends up talking about millitary secrets. Although usually he replies quite quickly this one took a few hours to come back and goes a bit too off the original topic. Almost as if he's trying to tell me/us something or trying to make us believe something. I may be paranoid but I get the feeling he's spoke to other RP members and come up with this as they want GS to think that

1. They didn't help vox that much and weren't very close allies.
2. They are mainly concerned with ND and GOW.
3. They have alot of defensive units.

sent about 13 hours ago 1am UK time
I don't really understand why. Although we supported Vox for a bit (mostly because we sensed thay would win) we have not provided any real military support to them. I know that thay are now asking for some because of your settler/pike (& lone Flail) stacks. What togas does is... well, I don't know. Most of us on the team are just goofing off... I was the first one killed in the spanish inquisition (we are playing spain in case you forgot). We have nothing against GS other than they were beating us in techs, which is something we wanted to do. Our focus is really on defending from ND adn GoW to our north (would you trust them). We have so many defensive units... well, let me put it this way, if half of them were offensive, I would be taking the last GoW city on the mainland, and ND would have been gone a while ago. Oh well.


Overall I wouldn't read too much into this and certainly wouldn't let it affect policy.

I'd appreciate it if no mentioned that I've posted this here as it is meant to be a private message.

	06-06-2003 17:59									#105
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Lets not forget NDs comment that RP was planning to attack us soon.

Possibilities:

RP are supporting Vox, and are planning to attack us. The info from OPD is so much hot air, and isn't worth the pixels it's printed on.

RP are worried about being invaded by a combined ND/GoW offensive from the north, and having seen one of our galleys (I believe), know (or suspect) that we could take advantage of a war to stage a naval invasion. They dno't plan to attack us (and either sent disinformation to ND, or ND lied) Knowing how the mil. advisor weights units, they want us to believe that, since they are mostly defensive units, they have a *lot* of them - the message being "you'll need a huge invasion to make any ground, so yuo'd better wait a while until your force is big enough - oops, we're not at war in the north any more, so you missed your chance".

RP aren't supporting Vox, but are going to attack us as ND suggested, hoping to secure more land. Having claimed a good chunk of Bob, they see the opportunity to invade us (somehow) while our forces are tied down. They don't want us to believe that they are capable to mustering a good enough invasion force, so we won't worry too much about defending against the possibility. (How much warning will our galleys give us if RP do have a fleet coming down either coast?)

Probably other possibilities as well. As OPD says, the information basically amounts to nothing, since we have no idea whether it is reliable or not (although RP have usually been reliable in the past, as I understand it, Machievellian politics aside).

I bet they're not saying to ND "we are mostly concerned with defending against you and GoW..."

	06-06-2003 18:35									#106
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The fact is that GOW and ND are a threat to them. Would it really be a smart move for them to attack us when the UU's are coming up. Our units would be busy with vox but they'd still need to take alot of units which they're probably going to need on bob.

Perhaps them having alot of defence is plausible but still not reliable.

ND wanting to chat. Maybe they want us to not join the RP side if they attack them.

	06-06-2003 18:52									#107
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GoW and ND are a threat to them if they form an alliance, much as RP and ND are a threat to GoW, and (even more so) RP and GoW are a threat to ND if they form an alliance. A lot of the freedom of movement of the Bob civs is determined by what alliances they have with each other, and more importantly, how much they trust each other.

That aside, I doubt many people here would be in favour of joining RP against ND, so a non-agression deal with ND shouldn't pose a problem - I'd be in favour of it.

	06-06-2003 19:10									#108
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I'd love to work out an deal with ND to beat up on RP.

But I DO think that GodKing has a point: the real threat is Lego. Not that Lego is going to go on a rampage conquering people, but they're in a strong position and the longer they are left alone, the stronger they get.

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 19:11									#109
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quote: Originally posted by vulture That aside, I doubt many people here would be in favour of joining RP against ND, so a non-agression deal with ND shouldn't pose a problem - I'd be in favour of it.

Me too.
Although if it were 2 against 1 on bob it would be better for us, if we could win, to join the 1. 2 allies sharing the whole of bob would be trouble for us where as one civ and us with some bobian land would be a much better arrangement. However recent events have pretty much ruled this out.

	06-06-2003 19:12									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd love to work out an deal with ND to beat up on RP. But I DO think that GodKing has a point: the real threat is Lego. Not that Lego is going to go on a rampage conquering people, but they're in a strong position and the longer they are left alone, the stronger they get. -Arrian

Perhaps we could make a deal with ND to help beat up RP if they helped us beat up lego later on or even at the same time.

	06-06-2003 19:19									#111
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Is there something to be said for researching chivalry ourselves, to trade to RP in the event of a GoW+ND war against them? It wouldn't necessarily hurt relations with either of them (it is essentially what GoW has just done to us) and works in our favour by promoting stalemate, much as having Vox put up a good fight works in everyone's favour except ours.

	09-06-2003 17:22									#112
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Spoke to bigfree, E_T and togas last night.
Got a pm out of the blue and just turned up so was a bit unsure about things.

A few things I noted.

- RP chat all the time ingroup.
- They have set up a channel for future comms.
- Vox were their long term partners
- With them gone they are looking for a replacement
- They want to trade lux.
- I dwelt a bit too much on the vox - RP trade situation. May have pissed them off a bit. But they strenuously deny helping vox.
- After trading luxs we could move on to some sort of tech deal

	12-06-2003 15:11									#113
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Some thoughts on RP:

right now, it is quite plausible that they genuinely want a strong alliance with us. In their position, they have lost a good trading partner. They also have evidence that we have a good military going, and may well have info from Vox on the amount of galleys we can bring to bear. They know we can reach them quickly by galley. They might be worried about a GoW/ND alliance attacking from the north, and in view of the above know that they'll have to keep a good defense along their east coast as well, weakening them.

On the other hand, a good alliance with us would give them a replacement trade partner (with the biggest population - so lots of cash or tech potential), and allow them to concentrate their defenses more on their northern borders, making them stronger against a potential GoW/ND invasion. They have a lot of good reasons why they need us to be friendly at the moment, and they know that we have hostility and suspicions regarding them (unfounded or not), so they have to be worried that we have better relations with ND or GoW, and will leave RP facing a three-pronged attack.

	13-06-2003 05:14									#114
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Posted in 2 places....

Speaking as MoDA;
I read the chat log and I am not pleased with the way the chat went. I specificaly stated ...

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I hope this galley is just mapping a trade route. Maybe this will help us avoid having to trade our WM. We should bring it up in discussions with RP. As long as it is a single galley, I have no issues letting it through our costal waters. ...

Granted we have an invasion going on, and we do not want any interfearance with our timetables. All we needed to do is give RP the go ahead on the condition that they coordinate with us over the next 2 or 3 turns so that it does not interfear with our landings. Maybe expect some royalties from their map sales....

[rant]
edited as I missread the log and realize that we have not made any official requests
[/rant]


If I am seeming abrasive and acting like a control freak it is because I am trying to balance the diplomatic arena and change the way others view us. I said that I have ideas and I am trying to guide the general process. I wish I was there so that I could have put quabash of the whole issue. We have more important things to discuss, like our trade deals, what to do about Lego, a new home for Vox, Tech trading, Bob Politics.

[politicaly incorrect]
dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the swetty stuff...
[/politicaly incorrect]

Your choice, trade world maps in the next 100 years orso, or let RP scout our coasts. We need to thaw relations and this can really help, but not if we act parinoid and secrative. We can hold back information. We can not give the impression that we are.

Also, we DO NOT CARE about Lego's policies, only our own. Let Lego look like the lone wolf, not us.

Is it really that big of a deal that RP wants to scout our coasts? Security might dictate it (It saved us with Vox), but how secure are we when we create friction with all the other nations over small issues. We will gain some trust, appreciation and finally RP will believe us that we are on a large island (small continent). It is worth the small price of "lost security" when you consider that we can then say.."see, we told you" ..then redirect the focus on lego...

We need to make some consessions in order to improve our relations. This is a small one.

We need to be a little more gracious folks.

Mss

	13-06-2003 05:41									#115
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dp

	13-06-2003 16:08									#116
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I also don't think we should hold back RP from scouting, we could even trade our map, I really don't mind that much at this point. It was RP's reply of "no big deal" that needed further attention IMHO, as a chance to create understanding.

I didn't mind them scouting, but they didn't know the situation as we know- and Togas showed complete lack of understanding to what quite possibly is a problem for us, after our discussion, I tend to believe this has changed somewhat.

	13-06-2003 16:36									#117
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Do we have any definitive answer on whether the RP galleys will hinder our war plans this turn? Was Togas right when he said that there was no place the galley could finish it's turn that could force us to expend extra movement points by going around them?

	13-06-2003 17:45									#118
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Unless they are willing to sink in a Sea tile, they can't block us this next turn from going anywhere of note.

	13-06-2003 20:54									#119
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I just read the log.

[rant]
**** Togas. I really don't like that guy.
[/rant]

Anyway, what the hell is so wrong with wanting to keep our map to ourselves? Personally, I don't see why scouting our coastline is something they can assume is a-ok, and act all shocked when we have reservations about it! That's OUR territory, damnit.

I'm not concerned about them landing troops from that scout galley now. I'm concerned about what could happen 50 turns from now, with our map information disseminated to the world.

I simply do not believe that they cannot understand our point of view on this matter. Therefore, logically, they are simply playing dumb in order to get what they want: knowledge of our coastline (which, as I have stated previously, is most of our nation, and gives up the locations of our iron sources, good landing zones, etc).

I know we're trying to improve relations with other teams, but is it worth the security risk? As far as I can see, Togas is always gonna have a chip on his shoulder w/regard to us, and since he basically runs RP, no amount of bowing and scraping by us is going to fix that.

Therefore, I'm inclined to deny them permission to scout our coast, and inform them that an attempt to do so will result in 1 sunken RP galley.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 23:05									#120
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As said elsewhere, I think it's time for us to trade our maps. Astronomy is a couple techs away, and even if we tried to keep our coasts clear militarily, it would end with Caravels (absolutely no offensive capability in that timeframe).

Lets get something for our map, and let everyone see we're the runt (Vox doesn't count much anymore) of the litter, not the top dog. We have the units to block off good landing sites, and besides, the 'best' ones (our coastal Iron Mountains) are already visable.