19-01-2003 19:00									#31
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From what I gather, RP has not claimed the whole bottom of the map; only about half of it. (mountains, not sea to the east). If this is true, and the area is as small as they say it is, we should not intrude. Maybe we could get directions from our warrior on which directions to go to travel around their territory. That way, we can judge how big it is.

They said they would gladly trade maps. What if we traded .jpgs now (with their 'territory' marked)? That way, we can see how big or small their territory really is, and we wouldn't need directions for the warrior to go around their territory.

	20-01-2003 02:27									#32
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Maps are maps, but I agree with GF on this issue, if they won't let us scout it now, there is no way in heck they are going to trade it later.

The ONLY reason they could possibly have for their actions is that there is something they DON'T want us to see. Luxuries, vast resources, something.

But, the real issue isn't the maps or scouting. The big issue is the fact that they AGREED to trade us Writing for Horseback Riding and VIOLATED THE AGREEMENT. This is a major insult and act of war in my opinion. They are trading it to everyone else BUT US.

My friend in Roleplay apologized to me and said he was pretty taken back when they had decided to get Horseback Riding from Lux and not trade Writing to us (and he did confirm it had nothing to do with the scout situation). He also said that at least 3 members of Roleplay were completely against the no scout declaration they gave us. He said that Togas, Arnelos, E_T, and about two others are extremely against our team and are trying various ways to undermine our success.

	20-01-2003 02:50									#33
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We need to get an official reply together soon. I think it should include:

1. A trade of maps (jpgs now - with RPs 'territory' marked
2. Rebuke about cancellation of Horse-writing trade and a warning about breaking deals with us in the future.
3. Agreement that if their territory is less or equal to 56 tiles (4*7 twice), we will not enter there for the duration of our nonagression pact. Also, they are not allowed to move north of NDG and Lux (our 'territory'). If their territory is more than 56 tiles, we were lied to about the size of the territory and this territorial agreement is null and void.

Comment on these points; but a reply needs to be made soon.

	20-01-2003 02:56									#34
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I am OK with a jpg swap....with the understanding that the infomation is NOT shared with other teams.

I feel that Panzer should be able to resurect the Horse Back Riding - Writing trade.

If the RP team is split on this issue, then we should become a luittle more demanding.

Tell them there is great debate on our team on whether we make an announcement on the main board that RP has renegged on a deal and cannot be trusted. Panzer should tell them that they have only a few days to decide.

Tell them that our warriors are explorers only. WE CAN NOT wage an effective war from so far away. They are too wrapped up in the roleplaying mode to understand that our warriors wont attack. Point this out to them, and that they need to come to their senses.

Tell them that the Northern Three Nations are having some serious space problems, and in our opinion they seem to be claiming way too much land, and that ND & Lux will come to the same conclusion soon. Tell them a jpg swap is the only way this issue is can be resolved.

Tell them that our whole team is determined to Map our entire continent. No-one will stop our warriors unless a jpg map can be arranged.

Regs

	20-01-2003 03:07									#35
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1. Yes Agreed - And if their map shows their entire land, our warriors will return home.
2. Yes Agreed - take this further - a more agressive response.
3. Dont even bother acknowledging their territory claim. Our goal is to map the continent. They can "Claim" whatever land they want. Our riders will simply take what we want in due time. Drop Point 3 altogether

	20-01-2003 03:30									#36
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I like point 3, because I'm 95% sure they are lying.

	20-01-2003 04:15									#37
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They have to be lying. If it was that small, then 4 civs would not have ended up on this little place. As far as I know, Lego is alone. that leaves Just GS and Vox out there to contact each other. If RP is not lying, then all 4 teams on this "main" contenent are screwed.

	20-01-2003 04:17									#38
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They're lying, they have a history of it at this point.

	20-01-2003 04:24									#39
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Then lets catch them in their lie and include point 3.

I just dont really want to acknowledge any type of land claim they make at all.

	20-01-2003 05:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= ...said that Togas, Arnelos, E_T, and about two others are extremely against our team and are trying various ways to undermine our success.

Hmmm.... If these three are against us, lets try to figure out why, and correct the situation.

I think I know why ET is against us (those from the SPDG I am sure know of the differences we have had), but what about Togas and Arne?

Arne seems to be a very nice guy and I get along with him nicely. Togas, on the other hand, well he might still be mad at me. Before any teams started for this game, he approached me with a pm about forming a team similar to what he has now. He was even willing to let me be the leader of this team. I told him I was still pushing for a Multi-site game and that I didn't want to at that time. About only a day (maybe less) later I formed this one. He hasn't really talked to me since.

	20-01-2003 06:53									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They're lying, they have a history of it at this point.

Lawyers.

(just kidding... but not to much! )

	20-01-2003 07:35									#42
	Possible Response Got spare money?

Concocting official response...

How's this?

_________________

adaMada,

I am finally officially replying to the PM about Roleplay's territorial claim. The Glory of War understands the reason Roleplay would want to claim their own territory to create room for their expansion. We also understand that small territorial claims are necessary, and completly within the spirit of the game. There are several things at this juncture that I think are needed to continue good relations between our two teams:

1. We need to trade maps. We need to know exactly where we are located, and especially where your territorial claim is. We need this information because if we don't have it, there is no guarantee for us that we are moving our warrior out of your territory. We would like to move around your territory, and it would make it much easier for us to have directions. Also, on the flip side, it would be beneficial for your team to understand the geography of the northern part of the continent. We will supply our map in .jpg format if you do the same, with your territorial claim imposed on it. As a clause to this agreement, the .jpgs will not be shown to other teams.

2. We need to develop trust for each other. Unfortunatly, this is impossible when the Roleplay team breaks previously agreed upon deals. This was the case when the roleplay team decided not to trade the Glory of War writing for horseback riding. Our team is dissapointed that this deal got cancelled by your team. Our dissapointment has evolved slowly into a general distrust of your team. We will be forever wary of the Roleplay team in the future, as they have not proven they can be trusted. I can do nothing now but warn you that the consequences could be very grave indeed if you decide to break an agreement with the Glory of War again.

3. We need to acknowledge each other's territory. The Roleplay team has already told us of their territorial claim. With the trading of jpg maps, the Glory of War will be able to see the exact extent of this claim. I quote from adaMada's official response to my question "How large is Roleplay's territorial claim?": "At its widest points, it is about seven spaces wide and four deep". This would mean the territory is no larger than 56 tiles (4*7 twice). If this is true (and the .jpg map can prove this), the Glory of War will support your territorial claim and not enter this zone. As a reciprocal agreement, the Glory of War requests that you do not enter the zone to the north of Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta, where the Glory of War is located. I can mark this zone on the .jpg map when we trade also. On the other hand, and your territory is more than 56 tiles large, the Roleplay team has lied to the Glory of War yet again. All of the above in point #3 will be null and void. The Glory of War will not support any current territorial claim by Roleplay, and will be extremely wary of one made in the future.


Thank you for your time, adaMada. I hope you will take these points seriously.

Panzer32,
Consul of Foreign affairs for the Glory of War PTW democracy game

	20-01-2003 07:37									#43
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PS - thats probably the longest ever post I have written... I feel proud

	20-01-2003 08:08									#44
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Panzer, you CAN feel proud. This is a nice piece of diplomacy. Tactful and clear, and reaffirm our
sovereignty.

	20-01-2003 08:31									#45
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Very good, and our warrior two tiles away from their capital can see what answer they wish to give.

	20-01-2003 08:36									#46
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Nice words and a big stick.
I can see why Ted Roosevelt is one of your preferred Presidents...

	20-01-2003 08:37									#47
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OK... sending reply to adaMada.

	20-01-2003 08:58									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Nice words and a big stick. I can see why Ted Roosevelt is one of your preferred Presidents...

Honestly, I've always liked Teddy, I don't understand why he isn't more popular.

America could use a Teddy right now.



That's a scary thought, everyone say hello to the 51st and 52nd states of Iraq and North Korea.

	20-01-2003 08:59									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

One downside.....

What happens when Roleplay contacts ND and Lux, and lets them know the GOW have claimed all of the territory above them.

Your respose is well written and DOES NOT make this claim...but RP's history has shown that they are nuts and read into our words whatever they want to hear.

I suggest that we may want to let ND & Lux know that we are making a deal which involves keeping RP from any exploration North. Warn them that RP may read into this, more than we have actually agreed.

ND may not care. Their Northern expansion cant go any further.
Unfortunately, we dont know where Lux exactly is. We dont want to have to get into a "territory claim" argument with them as well. I can almost gurantee that RP will try to do something stupid.

Well written response Panzer. I still say we should of just agreed to stop exploring and not to "support their territory claim". But that is a personal thing.

What do you think Lux's response will be when RP tells them....
GOW supports thier ownership of the lowerhalf of the continent and also the GOW is claiming all of your Northern Territory.
We did not say this but..they will try to sell it to Lux.

I think some unofficial chats are required with ND & Lux to keep them in the loop.

I cant wait to hear the RP response.

	20-01-2003 09:05									#50
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Will sent explanation replies to ND and Lux tommorrow... too late tonight...

	20-01-2003 18:25									#51
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RP is going to be so pissed....

	20-01-2003 19:17									#52
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New emailfrom Roleplay:

quote: GF, This whole situation is positively silly. I'll grant that Togas is being just as silly as we thought you were being (a topic of discussion on our boards right now), but you know as well as I do (or I think) that the geographic placement of the various civs/teams makes a potential strategic partnership between GoW and RP extremely valuable... it would be simply inane to toss that out the door. We'd all have to be out of our minds (which might not be far from the truth, but that's beside the point ). From Panzer's latest PM and what E_T just posted, it sounds like part of this was just miscomunication. Apparently, some on the team were puzzled that you would be as pissed off as you were about a deal that wasn't even ironed out yet. That's apparently because you had the impression that the deal WAS ironed out. I honestly don't know what happened there because I haven't been paying any attention to the RP Team in weeks until the past few days (being President in the C3DG had its price, but that's gone now ). I hope we can just overlook the screw-up and iron out a deal we can both live with and is realistic with the tech situation as we now know it. The other half of the problem, I'll grant you, is that Togas went through the roof when he found your warrior south of the jungle. I gather that we're planning to eventually give you guys our map ANYWAYS, so I think the issue is strictly security (don't want your warrior loitering around where our next settler might be headed). We can always just make a deal that includes all of these things as provisions (and haggle the deal until both sides find it acceptable, if need be). FYI: All of this is very unofficial, as I'm no longer FAM-equivalent (though with my new free time, I might take the job back... we'll see) and I haven't been looking at specifics for the PTW game in a while. I'm just getting back into the PTW game and I'm responding to your e-mail from the last save (since such a taunting e-mail deserves at least SOME response ;p ).

Here are some ideas:

We could offer to normalize relations if they agree to trade us Writing the turn they discover it for Horseback Riding.

We GUARANTEE that we will not attack or hinder their settlers AND workers if they allow us to continue exploring the continent.
OR
We can trade jpg's of each other's terrain (the ctrl/alt/m function) and they can mark out which territory they lay claim too with the agreement that these jpgs are not to be traded or given to anyone else.

	20-01-2003 19:40									#53
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Damn, I don't like ET....I wish he'd go back to whatever planet he was from....

I gree that we can start to back off on RP if they give us writting and the jpg for our jpg and Horseback Riding. And I think its a good idea to tell them that the only way we are going to stop exploring south is if the give us the jpg. Promising not to attack their workers and settlers is a good idea, but at this stage of the game, going ahead and breaking that by taking out an unguarded settler would be to good to pass up...

Nice job all around on the diplomacy front guys....

GoW should stand for the Glory of Writting!

	20-01-2003 20:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb That's a scary thought, everyone say hello to the 51st and 52nd states of Iraq and North Korea.

Hmm... A second thought:

	21-01-2003 07:26									#55
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Our goal is to map the continent.
We will have achieved this with a jpg swap.
I see no reason why this cant happen, so it has my support.

If it happens, then lets return our warriors. We will even let roleplay decide their route so be dont travel close to any settlers.

If we can normalise relations with tech trade, then I am all for this as well....so long as it is something we want.

It is true what is written above. Lux and ND live between us. In our opinion, RP has the weakest civ/UU so it would be wise to join with them against Lux & ND.

And take out RP last

Whether politics allows this is the question.

Well done all...it looks like we may have caused a minor revolution within the RP team.

	22-01-2003 07:27									#56
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Waiting for an official reply... something tells me they are trying to decide whether to attack us or ally with us!

	22-01-2003 08:54									#57
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Their lack of response has been very disappointing.

I'm hoping we have caused enough disruption within their team, that they are having a revolution, and Togas is beheaded.

	22-01-2003 09:33									#58
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we did the same thing to them, remember?

Look at the date recieved and the date sent on the posts!

	22-01-2003 09:48									#59
	Got spare money?

Perhaps it was too much to expect another Togas rant.

It makes the game much more exciting

	22-01-2003 09:57									#60
	Remove this text

I think we should take out RP early as they have proved nothing but trouble and their team does not appear as though it will ever contribute its fair weight with the rest of us.