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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Reply to Togas:
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Togas,
Yes, adaMada and I have been in touch. He has wanted to include a no trade clause in the deal, and we have been trying to agree on one. If you wish to do the following deal you proposed exactly how you said it, then the Glory of War will accept: (We=Roleplay, You=GoW)
[quote]
We receive HBR from you.
We follow the warrior (I think his name is Basher) as he moves north from the Eneros Mountains, through the desert, and into the jungle.
We then exchange Writing for 60g.
[\quote]
I thank you for your time, and again assure you that adaMada has been in touch.
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War
________________
I hope we can bypass a no trade clause altogether if we push this through quickly. Therefore, I am sending this now.
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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They appear to be stalling again.
I'm moving the warriors back south.
Added this memo to the email I forwarded the save with:
quote:
I am sorry, and this is by no means meant to be a hostile act, but the mapping of the continent is an incredibly valuable resource, both strategically and for trade after Mapmaking.
We have waited several turns for a definite trade deal on Writing and there simply hasn't been an offer. The minute a finalized deal is agreed on we will move our warriors out but as we moved them north in good faith and have lost those turns of exploration our team must make some progress either in mapped area or new technology. |
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 01-02-2003 at 06:31
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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from adaMada:
_____________________
Dear Panzer,
Togas has just told me that Ghengis dropped him an odd note in the most recent save -- something about your warrior returning to our lands or whatnot as you've "waited for several turns and there has not been an offer". I must admit, I was rather surprised at this, as I sent an offer last night -- accepting condition three and your original offer for a fifteen turn no-tech trade agreement. Assuming the PM came through all right, I've gotta assume that this is simply a mistake. I understand that both teams obviously need time to discuss before making a further deal, but I feel that we are negotiating, and that we have made an offer. I’m sure it’s probably a mistake, or perhaps overlapping events, but I wanted to shoot you a quick PM and try to clarify the whole issue before anything gets out of hand .
-- adaMada
_________________
I believe that they have been waiting for us to reply to this PM: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...29#post1680229.
I guess I just posted it and then went on to other things, like talking with Togas. Here is an acceptance, that I will send this afternoon:
_______________________
adaMada,
quote:
Dear Panzer,
Togas has just told me that Ghengis dropped him an odd note in the most recent save -- something about your warrior returning to our lands or whatnot as you've "waited for several turns and there has not been an offer". I must admit, I was rather surprised at this, as I sent an offer last night -- accepting condition three and your original offer for a fifteen turn no-tech trade agreement. Assuming the PM came through all right, I've gotta assume that this is simply a mistake. I understand that both teams obviously need time to discuss before making a further deal, but I feel that we are negotiating, and that we have made an offer. I’m sure it’s probably a mistake, or perhaps overlapping events, but I wanted to shoot you a quick PM and try to clarify the whole issue before anything gets out of hand .
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It seems that in the chaos, that PM got forgot about (perhaps because a new page was started after its posting). We have also recieved messages from Togas asking whether you have been active. I now see that you have been waiting for us... Therefore:
The Glory of War accepts this deal. The points are:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.
About the 15 turn non-trading:
I assume this starts at 1950bc. I calculate that 15 turns from that is 1500bc, since the switch from 40 year turns to 25 year turns happens at 1750bc. If I am wrong, please contact me. Thank you.
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul the Glory of War
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Revised message to reflect that they have writing now:
_________________________
adaMada,
It seems that in the chaos, that PM got forgot about (perhaps because a new page was started after its posting). We have also recieved messages from Togas asking whether you have been active. I now see that you have been waiting for us... Therefore:
The Glory of War accepts this deal. The points are:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, now.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.
About the 15 turn non-trading:
I assume this starts at 1950bc, since that is the curent turn. I calculate that 15 turns from that is 1500bc, since the switch from 40 year turns to 25 year turns happens at 1750bc. If I am wrong, please contact me. Thank you.
Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade.
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul the Glory of War
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Possible response:
______________________
Togas,
I am sorry, but the Glory of War cannot accept this revised agreement. The original agreement called for writing to be exchanged "upon aquisition". Since Roleplay has now aquired writing, "upon aquisition" means immediatly. The Glory of War is upset at the arbitrary changing of the deal by Roleplay. If we go back to the original agreement, where the warriors do not have to be removed BEFORE the tech deal goes through, the Glory of War would be happy to trade with Roleplay.
To recap the aforementioned agreement:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing, all immediatly.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, immediatly.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
-Both Basher & Basher Jr. will be removed.
Again, if Roleplay agees to this, there will be no hard feelings. However, if Roleplay does not agree, the Glory of War will be extremely upset. We will be extremely wary of trading with Roleplay in the future, since they are liable to reword the agreement and thus reneg on the agreement.
On a somewhat unrelated note:
There are two groups of jungle. How is the Glory of War supposed to know exactly where Saragossa is. There are two jungles, and therefore two southern edges of the jungle. We have discovered a couple Roleplay cities, but have not discovered the names. Even if the Glory of War would agree to go along with your revised agreement, we would not know where exactly Roleplay wanted us to go.
Even so, there is no way the Glory of War would accept the revised agreemtn, this last paragraph was just for future reference.
Thank you,
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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I would also add the fact that we have no guarantee that they will not change the contract again as they just did. They just out of blue reworded an agreed treaty to include a city of Sargossa that was never mentioned before.
We have the reputation of NEVER breaking or failing to honor a treaty, they have failed to honor agreements three times now.
This is one of the reasons I decided to withdraw from Apolyton's team and join CDG's team. Considering that both the leadership of Lux and Roleplay consider treaty breaking a useful game tactic, I think I would feel more comfortable with another team.
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 04-02-2003 at 04:09
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Including other ideas in response
(please reply affirmativly if you want this sent)
___________________________
Togas,
I am sorry, but the Glory of War cannot accept this revised agreement. The original agreement called for writing to be exchanged "upon aquisition". Since Roleplay has now aquired writing, "upon aquisition" means immediatly. The Glory of War is upset at the arbitrary changing of the deal by Roleplay. If we go back to the original agreement, where the warriors do not have to be removed BEFORE the tech deal goes through, the Glory of War would be happy to trade with Roleplay.
To recap the aforementioned agreement:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing, all immediatly.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, immediatly.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
-Both Basher & Basher Jr. will be removed.
I think that Roleplay might have not quite understood the term "removal" of warriors. To clarify, this means the warriors will go back home to the Glory of War lands, north of where Neo Demogyptica is located. I hope this has not been the reason this agreement has been held up.
Again, if Roleplay agees to this, there will be no hard feelings. However, if Roleplay does not agree, the Glory of War will be extremely upset. We have no guarantee that you will not change the contract again as you just did. Roleplay, seemingly out of blue, reworded an agreed upon treaty to include a city of Sargossa that was never mentioned before. We will be extremely wary of trading with Roleplay in the future, since they are liable to reword the agreement and thus reneg on the agreement. If Roleplay does not accept this deal, and thus betrays us, the Glory of War would have no alternative but to warn the other teams of their behaviour to us.
On a somewhat unrelated note:
There are two groups of jungle. How is the Glory of War supposed to know exactly where Saragossa is. There are two jungles, and therefore two southern edges of the jungle. We have discovered a couple Roleplay cities, but have not discovered the names. Even if the Glory of War would agree to go along with your revised agreement, we would not know where exactly Roleplay wanted us to go.
Even so, there is no way the Glory of War would accept the revised agreement, this last paragraph was just for future reference.
Thank you,
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War
Last edited by Panzer32 on 04-02-2003 at 06:09
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Reply:
__________________
Panzer,
There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you. Our concern is primarily for the removal of your warriors. That has been and will remain a vital part of the agreement.
A definition must be created to define removal.
Therefore, I propose the following:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, and returns all military units near Spanish territory home. For the purpose of this agreement, this process will be called "removal". GoW will give 60 gold in trade for writing after removal.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing after removal of all GoW warriors in exchange for 60 gold.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
-Basher & Basher Jr., and any other GoW warriors in RolePlay territory will be removed and return home.
A warrior considered "removed" once he moves north of Saragossa. Basher will be "removed" if he moves North four times. Upon that turn he will be just north of a river, and have a game tile to his SE. That tile, and any tiles further north of it, is north of Saragossa and will sufficiently demonstrate that the warrior is "removed" from Spanish territory.
Should any GoW miltary unit move to any tile south (SE & SW included) of that tile, it will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to remove and return home, and will violate this agreement. Should Basher (while still south of Saragossa) move in any direction other than north, that will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to comply with this agreement, and this agreement will be violated.
Do you agree to these terms and definitions?
--Togas
_____________________
Frankly, I don't agree with this. From the reactions of the other members of the group, I gather this deal will not be acceptable.
Therefore, here is a draft of a rather consise reply:
_____________________
Togas,
The Glory of War does not accept this agreement. We will accept the agreement sent in my last PM, but not this last one that the Roleplay has suggested. If we define 'removal' as the warriors starting to move north, then the deal will be acceptable. Of course, the Glory of War will continue to move the warrior north. If you recall, the deal the Glory of War proposes is very beneficial to the Roleplay team. You get 60 gold, horseback riding, and the removal (see aforementioned definition) of the basher and basher jr. For this, you only have to give up writing. If you do not want to trade with the Glory of War, simply say so rather than propose proposterous deals that the Glory of War already rejected.
Thank you,
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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More threatening: (revised response)
_________________________
adaMada,
I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is conducting as Hitler did with Britain before World War II. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and is trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We have no desire to be your Chamberlain by feeding into your leadership's egomania and their continually altering demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and we accepted. Then you informed us that you decided to change the deal and we began working to meet that one. Then you changed it again.
We have no idea if this philosophy is that of your team or simply your leadership but it is difficult to maintain any form of mutually beneficial relationship with a team that regards the treaties it agrees to as little more than frivilous scratchpads of no value.
We have honored every agreement with your team since the beginning even when other civs gave us bonus techs and the deals were no longer equal trades. We find it very sad that your team still will not honor this agreement.
The Glory of War does not accept your revised agreement. We will accept the agreement sent in my last PM, but now with less money. The Glory of War is not paying Roleplay to sit idle and start revising a contract. Therefore, the amount the Glory of War will pay Roleplay is reduced to 20 gold. If they still have not agreed to do the deal within 2 more turns (when the GoW gets the 1790bc save), this price will be reduced to zero.
If we define 'removal' as the warriors starting to move north, then the deal will be acceptable. Of course, the Glory of War will continue to move the warrior north. If you recall, the deal the Glory of War proposes is very beneficial to the Roleplay team. You get 20 gold, horseback riding, and the removal (see aforementioned definition) of the basher and basher jr. For this, you only have to give up writing. If you do not want to trade with the Glory of War, simply say so rather than propose proposterous deals that the Glory of War already rejected.
This is the prior agreement:
quote:
Sent by adaMada, official diplomat to GoW
If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was:
GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing.
Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition
* Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.
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And from my reply to this:
quote:
This deal is accepted by the GoW
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I quote from your last PM:
quote:
Sent by Togas, leader of Roleplay
There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you |
I believe that if you said, "If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3", and the Glory of War accepted it, then it is a "prior agreement". It is the Glory of War's belief that we had a deal. Your claim that we did not have a prior agreement is a disgrace.
The offer we have outlined in this message is final. The Roleplay team has been playing this game in a dishonorable fashion and the Glory of War plans on advertising this fact to all other teams unless the deal is accepted immediately.
Thank you,
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War;
Along with the rest of the Glory of War team.
Last edited by Panzer32 on 06-02-2003 at 08:18
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Apolyton Time is 00:25. |
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01-02-2003 00:35
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