28-01-2003 13:36									#91
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One of my friends in Roleplay said that Togas stated flat out that there was no way they would trade us Writing. Supposedly Togas said that if we wanted it we would have to trade for it second hand.

Which got me thinking. We now have proof Lux lied and broke their treaty. Why don't we offer them a chance to redeem themselves. They are allowed to trade Horseback to Roleplay now but they have to give us Writing the turn they get OR ELSE we go public with their betrayal.

If they get us Writing we let bygones be bygones. Until the nonagression pact runs out of course.

Remember Lux realizes ND is out to get them, with the threat of us and ND coming for them and Roleplay so far away this just might work.

	28-01-2003 17:19									#92
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I did bring this up as an option in some other thread.

We should not dismiss the possibility of using Lux to gain us Writing.

	28-01-2003 18:02									#93
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The problem with #4 is that NOT trading them HBR gives Lux a chance, which is unnaceptable. That is why we offered so little gold for that deal. Also, Roleplay said these deals were better than the one Lux had proposed.

	29-01-2003 02:53									#94
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Option #4 also gives us the chance to then publically annouce that Lux is a deal breaker and can not be trusted.

Very damaging !!

	29-01-2003 04:47									#95
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Damaging for them you mean, right?

I think option 4 is the least preferable of them, as it gives Lux a chance to deal with Roleplay.

	29-01-2003 08:48									#96
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Reply:
__________________

Panzer,
There's one clause I forgot to negotiate when we were in the chat. If we trade you writing, we'd obviously ask that you not retrade it for a given number of turns -- just as you asked Lux and ND to.

Would you be willing to accept not trading Writing to another team as part of any deal we make for some period of time? Perhaps thirty turns as a starting point, though the number's flexible?

We're very close to a deal -- as soon as this is worked out, I should be able to send over an acceptance of one of your offers.

-- adaMada
_______________

I think the answer is sure, not for 20 turns. I'll just leave it out for a bit before replying.

	29-01-2003 10:08									#97
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We need it so we can start studying again rather than just generate revenue.

Sure why not... perhaps get a nominal discount of 5gold in for good faith.

	29-01-2003 10:24									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Damaging for them you mean, right? I think option 4 is the least preferable of them, as it gives Lux a chance to deal with Roleplay.

The case for Option #4

1. Yes - Damaging to Lux as we can clearly show proof of Lux's deception on the main forum.
2. Who cares if Lux gets writing ...they can have as many non-military techs as they want...we plan on wiping them off the face of the BOB.
3. It gives Lux the chance of not trading HBR and redeeming themselves. In which case, we have RP over a barrel and charge them for HBR.


The only real bad side, is that if Lux does do the deal, RP gets HBR...and we get nothing. But they are not a military threat to us....even if they can produce horsemen.
P.S. And also it will cost us 35g


But really....all the other options have advantages & disadvantages....so whatever is negotiated, I am fine with.

I'd rather not do a "now for then trade"..as teams can double cross and reneg on deals (As we have seen with Lux)...and I dont trust lawyers.

	29-01-2003 18:30									#99
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Reply:
_____________________

adaMada

Yes, I forgot totally about this type of clause !! But to answer, if this trade goes through, the Glory of War will not retrade writing for, say, 20 turns. If Roleplay selects a trade that includes the Glory of War giving them horseback riding, then Roleplay is not allowed to retrade Horseback Riding for 20 turns as well.

By the way, has anyone on Roleplay calculated when our nonagression pact ends? (everyone of GoW is too lazy !)

Thank you,

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consulate for the Glory of War

	29-01-2003 19:00									#100
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I have the chat log for the GoW-Roleplay chat we did... If anyone wants it, then let me know.

	29-01-2003 19:15									#101
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Please, Panzer32, I want the chat log...

	29-01-2003 20:37									#102
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Try to negotiate for 15 turns no trade. It will take ND that long to finish researching Currency or Construction.

I'm thinking we can offer Writing to ND for free at the end of our 15 turns if they agree not to trade anything to RP for it just to deprive RP of another tech.

	30-01-2003 01:10									#103
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Message changed from 20 turns to 15 turns and sent.

Chat log sent to Aro

	30-01-2003 03:06									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 I have the chat log for the GoW-Roleplay chat we did... If anyone wants it, then let me know.

I would also be keen to read it.
Can you attach the file to this thread ? Or just email it

Thanks

	30-01-2003 03:09									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Reply: _____________________ adaMada By the way, has anyone on Roleplay calculated when our nonagression pact ends? (everyone of GoW is too lazy !) Thank you, Panzer32 Foreign Affairs Consulate for the Glory of War

This will make them panic

	30-01-2003 05:10									#106
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Chat log attachment in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=75551

	30-01-2003 07:46									#107
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adaMada wants 20 turns.
___________________
Panzer,
Could we perhaps find a middle ground and accept a twenty turn prohibitation?

The length of time isn't a show-stopping issue, but it'd obviously be nice to find a comfortable compromise for both sides.

-- adaMada

	30-01-2003 07:54									#108
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Personally, I would take the 20 turns, because we NEED writing NOW. I will send the reply tonight, if there are any positive replies. If there are no replies tonight, I will mail the reply tommorrow.

	30-01-2003 07:55									#109
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15 turns is plenty of time, everyone will have finished researching another tech by that point and both of our teams will have a tech more valuable to trade by then.

	31-01-2003 05:42									#110
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Ideas for Roleplay Writing deal:



Offer 12 turns no trade of Writing and they can trade Horseback to anyone they want.

40 Gold and our units continue to move back to our homelands.

They should drop their price for the following reasons:
1) They have added a no trade clause which reduces the value of the trade.

2) We fulfilled our part of the negotiations by moving our warriors north while they have NOT FULFILLED ANYPART.

Our warriors move back south next turn if we don't have an agreement. Remember they have lied and broken agreements with us before.

I would be willing to allow them to get Horseback from Lux if they give us a fair deal. Currently they are robbing us blind.

	31-01-2003 05:52									#111
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I think it is very important to change our Foreign advisers attitute to angry towards RP on our next turn.

That will teach them !!!!

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 31-01-2003 at 06:57

	31-01-2003 05:59									#112
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Draft:
_______________

adaMada,

On the topic of the Horseback Riding for Writing trade:

The Glory of War believes that 20 turns is an unnecessary precaution. We believe that before that time, everyone will have finished researching another tech by that point and both of our teams will have a tech more valuable to trade by then. The Glory of War, therefore is prepared to make you a deal:

We continue with trading Writing for Horseback Riding. The Gory of War will not trade writing for 12 turns, while Roleplay can trade Horseback riding to whomever they chose, whenever they chose. If Roleplay wishes to extend the amount of turns that the Glory of War cannot trade Writing, they can pay (as a discount off what GoW would pay Roleplay for this deal) 3 gold per extra turn. Therefore, if Roleplay wishes to extend the deal to 20 turns, they can discount 24 gold off the original deal.

Here are some reasons for this deal:

1. We have fulfilled our part of the negotiations by moving our warriors north while Roleplay has NOT FULFILLED ANY PART.

2. The extra no trade clause has reduced the value of the tech. The Glory of War assumed during the negotiations that since we didn't discuss no trade agreements, there would be none.


Keep in mind that since this deal has not gone through yet, there is nothing keeping our warrior-explorer out of the south. If we do not reach an agreement soon, we will turn back south. But remember: we're not there to attack you. We have a nonagression pact, remember?

Thank you very much,

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	31-01-2003 07:18									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Draft: _______________ adaMada, blah blah blah ...... 1. We have fulfilled our part of the negotiations by moving our warriors north while Roleplay has NOT FULFILLED ANY PART. blah blah blah ...... Thank you very much, Panzer32 Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

What part were they supposed to fulfill ?

Change to.... while Roleplay still ATTEMPTS TO DELAY THE AGREEMENT BY CHANGING CONDITIONS.

???

Or is it us who has changed the conditions ?

Regs



We are getting screwed with this deal.

	31-01-2003 07:40									#114
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They were supposed to trade us Writing for Horseback.

We went ahead and moved our forces back north and they are still refusing to agree to anything.

	31-01-2003 07:48									#115
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I would make the following changes:
_______________

adaMada,

On the topic of the Horseback Riding for Writing trade:

The Glory of War believes that 20 turns is an unnecessary precaution. We believe that before that time, everyone will have finished researching another tech and by that point both of our teams will have a tech more valuable to trade. The Glory of War, therefore is prepared to make you a deal:

We continue with trading Writing for Horseback Riding. The Glory of War will not trade writing for 12 turns, while Roleplay can trade Horseback riding to whomever they chose, whenever they chose.

Here are some reasons for this deal:

1. We have fulfilled our part of the negotiations by moving our warriors north while Roleplay has not yet finalized the deal.

2. The addition of the no trade clause has reduced the value of the trade.


Keep in mind that since this deal has not gone through yet, there is nothing keeping our warrior-explorer out of the south. If we do not reach an agreement soon, we will turn back south. But remember: we're not there to attack you. We have a nonagression pact, remember?

Thank you very much,

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

Remember we have to walk on eggshells around Roleplay. They take the slightest miswording as an afront and are very self-centered so that any thing that sounds like an demand is viewed as an attack on their "superiority as the world's most perfect Civ Team".

	31-01-2003 08:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I would make the following changes: _______________ Remember we have to walk on eggshells around Roleplay. They take the slightest miswording as an afront and are very self-centered so that any thing that sounds like an demand is viewed as an attack on their "superiority as the world's most perfect Civ Team".

Damn those laywers.

So long as we come to an agreement before writing is available...this dance we are doing may be worth while.

Lets see what the Lux response is from the latest GF email.
They may be so concerned about us siding with ND, that they back away from giving HBR to RP.

If that happens, then we may be glad of this slow pace of negotiations.
If RP realises that they dont have a fallback postition of buying HBR from Lux, they may suddenly become a little more flexible.

Its a good email GF / Panzer.

Send it out.

	31-01-2003 08:39									#117
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sent (GF version)

	31-01-2003 08:41									#118
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Just got this From jdjdjd

Will post in this thread and in Lux FAC thread.
_____________________

Lux Invicta
Hello Dear Panzer:

I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI).

I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off.

Please let us know should you have any questions.

I remain,

jdjdjd

	31-01-2003 16:28									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Hold the presses... ______________________ Lux Invicta Hello Dear Panzer: I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI). I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off. Please let us know should you have any questions. I remain, jdjdjd

And this is an edit from the GOW - RP chat

[21:02] [Arnelos] Lux HAS offered us Horseback Riding - your deal sounds FAR better, though. Obviously, the despot (Togas) gets to make the decision on this, but I agree that your deal sounds good
[21:03] [GoW_Panzer32] yeah, Lux is a lying team anyways
[21:03] [Ninotsback] i share Arnelos' opinion completely
[21:04] [GhengisDevil] WRITE DOWN WHAT ARNELOS JUST SAID PANZER
[21:05] [Ninotsback] they havent made a trade. they considered it tho
[21:05] [GhengisDevil] They can't ever OFFER it.
[21:05] [Ninotsback] well then
[21:05] [Ninotsback] that makes that clear
[21:05] [Ninotsback] on the other hand, we have not accepted their deal at all
[21:06] [GhengisDevil] Busted
[21:06] [GhengisDevil] BFM swore to me this morning that he sent your team a memo that said they could not trade you Horseback Riding.
[21:07] [Ninotsback] we received just the opposite
[21:07] [Arnelos] yeah, we asked them about this "deal"
[21:07] [adaMada] Ghengis -- I belive you, personally
[21:07] [adaMada] *believe
[21:07] [adaMada] But ONE team is lying, and we really have no proof either wa...
[21:07] [adaMada] Any way we could, once and for all, settle the issue?
[21:08] [GhengisDevil] BFM told me this morning he could not send me a copy of the memo because he had to have your teams approval and yoru team wouldn't give it.
[21:09] [Arnelos] (we never said that)
[21:09] [Ninotsback] ok, very honestly now, i tell you, BFM never asked us for aproval on anything concering GoW
[21:09] [Arnelos] yup
[21:09] [GoW_Panzer32] But there are some things that are pretty convincing
[21:10] [Ninotsback] This swirl of controvorsy... every little "wrong" thing about it has SOMETHING to do with Lux
[21:10] [Arnelos] but given that Ninot agreed with me...



We could stir up some real bad blood between Lux and RP if we sent the above to Lux.

And if Lux cracks it and honours the agreement not to sell HBR to RP, then HBR becomes more valuable to RP.

And it still doesnt resolve the problem that Lux does not own the rights to HBR and cannot even offer it to RP.

We should also send the above to adaMada. And ask him the question of what the hell is going on with his team !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	31-01-2003 19:09									#120
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finally:
_____________

Panzer,
I meant no offense. Your original offer of fifteen turns of not trading for both of us is acceptable if it still is to you -- I was just trying to strike a middle ground between the two team's offers.

If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was:
GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing.
Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition
* Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

I am very pleased to hear that your warrior has already begun to prepare for it's long trip back towards your homeland, as it is a long trip. Please pass along our best wishes to your men.

Finally, let me thank you for your reasonableness and willingness to sort things out. I feel that we were very successful in finding a common middle ground in the chat, and I hope that we can have many more productive meetings in the future.

-- adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War
____________________

Personally, I would take this deal. It still gives us 5 turns less that we don't trade writing. I will however wait to see what others think.