22-01-2003 20:19									#61
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Could somone define the geographical boundaries of suothern culture more precisely. For instance states such as Kentucky, Texas, Florida and Louisiana seem to have distinct cultures of their own.
So the Southern culture must be centred in the states: Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, Missisippi, and Tennessee.
Maybe these states were the ones which were hardest hit by the civil war in terms of destruction of infrastructure and social upheaval. The subsequent failed reconstruction effort had a continued influence on the worldview of the citizens there.
Correct me if I am wrong.

	22-01-2003 20:25									#62
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Texas is unique in that they joined the Union as a Republic, not a territory.

Your breakdown is good enough.

	22-01-2003 20:26									#63
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quote: Honestly, Imran, only someone with no perspective can take fashion advice and turn it into the biggest case of discrimination in the history of the Republic.

I dunno, telling women that they can't wear pantsuits was HIGHLY offensive to the women in my section (as well as my g/f). Plenty of them said they wouldn't want a job in a company that wouldn't allow them to wear pantsuits and only want to see them in skirts.

And yeah, I always consider it 'fashion advice' when people say don't wear something, which was made for that specific affair, because some people might be offended.

It is nice to impart your feelings for their, John .

Sorry to disabuse you of your belief that the South is perfect .

	22-01-2003 20:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Texas is unique in that they joined the Union as a Republic, not a territory.

That was before the Civil War or am I wrong?
During the civil war did Union troops conquer Texas or did Texas surrender?

	22-01-2003 20:38									#65
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"I dunno, telling women that they can't wear pantsuits was HIGHLY offensive to the women in my section (as well as my g/f). Plenty of them said they wouldn't want a job in a company that wouldn't allow them to wear pantsuits and only want to see them in skirts."

Well, they need to grow up and get over it. Everybody has standards, and if a potential employee doesn't want to deal with them, then they shouldn't bother to apply. That's life in the big-leagues and is the sort of thing one has to adjust to if you want to stay in the bigs.

	22-01-2003 20:41									#66
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Yeah, the traditionalists have standards, and seemingly those standards are to keep women down. Just about everyone that has come down here from the North finds it striking the amount of BS women have to put up with down here.

When you have firms that only have like 2 women partners and both are in Family Law (compared to about 200 men partners), it's not really a business environment that women are going to feel very comfortable in. Some firms have serious problems with underrepresentment of women.

	22-01-2003 20:42									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Texas is unique in that they joined the Union as a Republic, not a territory. Your breakdown is good enough.

Tisk, tisk. May I point out the Bear Flag Republic of my own dear state of California? Just because the Californians were still fighting their succesionist war against Mexico doesn't mean independence wasn't declared and a consitution drawn up. The revolutionaries even controlled half the state before the U.S. Army showed up to kick the Mexican's out.

	22-01-2003 20:46									#68
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quote: Yeah, the traditionalists have standards, and seemingly those standards are to keep women down.

Preferring that women wear skirts instead of pant suits is "keeping them down"?

Come to think of it, companies all over are oppressing me by preferring I wear a suit to work. I think I'll start a protest...

	22-01-2003 20:46									#69
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Texas was the last state to surrender in the war.
Just like the Emancipation Proclamation that spawned Juneteenth here, word was extremely late arriving here that the war was over.
Though there were divisions formed in Texas and sent east, more of the involvement was in supplies.

	22-01-2003 20:50									#70
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quote: Preferring that women wear skirts instead of pant suits is "keeping them down"?

Not hiring women because they wear pantsuits to interviews instead of skirts is 'keeping them down'. How would you like it if you were told that a woman interviewer wouldn't not hire you unless you wore a tight, short sleeved dress shirt, would you really feel comfortable?

How is a pantsuit any less dressy than a suit? It isn't. But it keeps them from seeing the womens' legs and reminds them they aren't the only ones wearing the pants in the company.

	22-01-2003 20:54									#71
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Sweet potatoes, black eyed peas, liver and onions, BBQ, blues, rock n' roll, etc.

	22-01-2003 20:56									#72
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quote: How would you like it if you were told that a woman interviewer wouldn't not hire you unless you wore a tight, short sleeved dress shirt, would you really feel comfortable?

I would like that very much, actually.

Sorry, but the porno-like scenario you provided distracted me for a second, so much so that I almost missed your bad analogy. Since when did skirts become the equivalent of a tight dress shirt? A mini-skirt is the natural equivalent and I don't think anyone's requring female applicants to wear those.

	22-01-2003 20:56									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc That was before the Civil War or am I wrong? During the civil war did Union troops conquer Texas or did Texas surrender?

If memory serves 1832 was the beginning of the war of Texas independence. They remained independent until 1845 and six months after that the Mexican-American war began largely as a result of Texas becoming an American state.

By late 1865 Texas was one of the few parts of the confederacy not yet reoccupied by the union. With the rest of the south lost they just figured the gig was up and throw in the towel.

	22-01-2003 20:58									#74
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Texas declared indpendence at in '35 actually. Right after Santa Anna's coup (against his own government, interestingly enough).

	22-01-2003 21:00									#75
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quote: Sorry, but the porno-like scenario you provided distracted me for a second. I almost missed your bad analogy. Since when did skirts become the equivalent of a tight dress shirt? A mini-skirt is the natural equivalent and I don't think anyone's requring female applicants to wear those.

Skirts themselves are simply designed to show skin. I think if you were to mandate anything, it should be pant suits so that both men and women are covered. Even with a tight dress shirt you hardly show any skin.

But (fortunetly) things are changing I've been hearing. As soon as those old fogey 'good ole boys' die off maybe things will get progressive .

Maybe even more woman Senators (which woefully there are too little of all around the country)!

	22-01-2003 21:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, the traditionalists have standards, and seemingly those standards are to keep women down. Just about everyone that has come down here from the North finds it striking the amount of BS women have to put up with down here. When you have firms that only have like 2 women partners and both are in Family Law (compared to about 200 men partners), it's not really a business environment that women are going to feel very comfortable in. Some firms have serious problems with underrepresentment of women.

Your second paragraph evades the issue and brings up another subject entirely, one that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Sorry, Imran, but women up north have to adhere to standards too - or do you think that a 6-figure power attorney in Manhatten goes to work in tie-dies and cut-offs? Do you think that no Northern firms have the same dress standards as all these "evil, oppressive" Southern firms?

'Tis to laugh.

	22-01-2003 21:03									#77
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quote: Skirts themselves are simply designed to show skin.

That's why the Amish wear them, I'm sure...

	22-01-2003 21:04									#78
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Speaking of blackeyed peas, Ramo; do you know why they're eaten for good luck in the South on New Year's? Seriously.
Different things are eaten in different places of the country/world.
You may know, others might not, so I'll tell.

When the Northern troops ravaged the South, burning houses and crops, they left the pea patch alone, as they thought of blackeyed peas as merely livestock feed.
Little did they know that we just LOVE blackeyed peas.

	22-01-2003 21:05									#79
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quote: no Northern firms have the same dress standards as all these "evil, oppressive" Southern firms?

No Northern firms require women to wear skirts when they can wear pantsuits (and actually end up looking more formal by doing so). Any firm up North that required skirts and prohibited pantsuits would be protested to kingdom come and would have to comply.

To dissade pantsuits because there is no showing of leg is a very nice subtle sexist practice which I'm glad the North (and West) got rid of years ago.

	22-01-2003 21:08									#80
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Silly yankees

	22-01-2003 21:10									#81
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quote: That's why the Amish wear them, I'm sure...

The Amish REALLY respect women's rights .

	22-01-2003 21:11									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Preferring that women wear skirts instead of pant suits is "keeping them down"? Not hiring women because they wear pantsuits to interviews instead of skirts is 'keeping them down'. How would you like it if you were told that a woman interviewer wouldn't not hire you unless you wore a tight, short sleeved dress shirt, would you really feel comfortable? How is a pantsuit any less dressy than a suit? It isn't. But it keeps them from seeing the womens' legs and reminds them they aren't the only ones wearing the pants in the company.

God, the eyerolling is giving me a headache. This post is so silly it begs disbelief.

"How is a pantsuit any less dressy than a suit? It isn't."

No, it is. You don't wear pant-suits to funerals (God, I hope not). Why? Because a dress is dressier than a pantsuit. Why? Because that's just the way it is. Just because you do not understand the dictates of fashion, especially womens fashion, does not make it wrong.

Btw, I don't make the rules. I just follow them - especially these, as the issue is so UNIMPORTANT.

"How would you like it if you were told that a woman interviewer wouldn't not hire you unless you wore a tight, short sleeved dress shirt, would you really feel comfortable?"

If I wanted the job, I'd wear the shirt. That's how the game is played.

Hey! You know what? To go to job interviews (at least in my salary range) I have to wear a suit. Oh, poor poor, whiny me!!! Boo-hoo! I gotta wear a tie. NOOOOO!!!!! WAAAAHHHHH!!!!!



Imran, when you go out and interview, you will be told that you have to wear a suit. How, in all the name that is good and holy, is that any different than telling a woman that she needs to wear a dress for an interview?

Hint: it isn't.

	22-01-2003 21:16									#83
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quote: The Amish REALLY respect women's rights

Way to miss the point entirely.

You said that skirts were designed to show skin. The Amish are about the most conservative people on Earth and abhor the showing of skin, yet they still wear skirts. I think that demonstrates the absurdity of your argument. Skirts are more traditional and formal than pantsuits, which is why they are preferred. It has very little to do with showing skin.

	22-01-2003 21:17									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: no Northern firms have the same dress standards as all these "evil, oppressive" Southern firms? No Northern firms require women to wear skirts when they can wear pantsuits (and actually end up looking more formal by doing so). Any firm up North that required skirts and prohibited pantsuits would be protested to kingdom come and would have to comply. To dissade pantsuits because there is no showing of leg is a very nice subtle sexist practice which I'm glad the North (and West) got rid of years ago.

Well, shit Imran, I'm still trying to figure out when wearing dresses was considered to be the non-demure thing to do.

	22-01-2003 21:18									#85
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quote: You don't wear pant-suits to funerals (God, I hope not). Why? Because a dress is dressier than a pantsuit. Why? Because that's just the way it is.

Bullshit! Pantsuits are fairly common at funerals.

quote: Imran, when you go out and interview, you will be told that you have to wear a suit. How, in all the name that is good and holy, is that any different than telling a woman that she needs to wear a dress for an interview?

Because there isn't anything else comparable for men. Women have two choice for formal wear: pantsuits and skirts. To forbid one (which is the more empowering... what do you think the phrase 'the pants in the relationship' mean?) is particularly interesting.

quote: Btw, I don't make the rules. I just follow them - especially these, as the issue is so UNIMPORTANT.

Of course... and underlying sexual prejudice is very unimportant. Why do you think all men have to wear suits? It serves to undistinguish them. The underlying reason is that it says that you are part of the company and you are no different from anyone else (hence interchangable).

Hell, look at the history of clothing in the past 100 years. Women that wore jeans more than few decades back (ie, pants) were either working in factories or just 'not being ladylike'. What does that mean other than women weren't expected to wear the 'pants in the society'.

	22-01-2003 21:24									#86
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"Of course... and underlying sexual prejudice is very unimportant. "

Imran, you making an issue where one doesn't exist. Typical of the young, but I expected better of you.

Personally, I wish that some of the more experienced and professional among us (GP, MtG) would weigh in - I would be interested in hearing their opinions as to the proper attire for interviews and big-league law firms. MtG's SO would be especially helpful here...

Btw, you're right. My stepmother wore a pantsuit to my grandfathers funeral, but she is a c*nt and I try to block all memory of that woman out of my mind. Regardless, my analogy was flawed in the fact that we really are talking two totally different social situations here.

	22-01-2003 21:27									#87
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quote: Imran, you making an issue where one doesn't exist. Typical of the young, but I expected better of you.

Typical of lawyers, actually. Cut him some slack; he's just doing what he's been taught to...

	22-01-2003 21:27									#88
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quote: Imran, you making an issue where one doesn't exist.

Well evidently many of the women believed it was an issue (to the point of being offended). Maybe that doesn't say anything, but if they say it was an issue, then maybe it is one.

	22-01-2003 23:33									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: no Northern firms have the same dress standards as all these "evil, oppressive" Southern firms? No Northern firms require women to wear skirts when they can wear pantsuits (and actually end up looking more formal by doing so). Any firm up North that required skirts and prohibited pantsuits would be protested to kingdom come and would have to comply.

I work at a Northern firm. Not a law firm, no, but still...may I quote our policy manual dress code?

"Dress code is business attire (neat and professional). Women must wear pantyhose when attending a client meeting or special event, and if client will be meeting in our offices."

	23-01-2003 01:35									#90
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quote: "Dress code is business attire (neat and professional). Women must wear pantyhose when attending a client meeting or special event, and if client will be meeting in our offices."

Where is the skirt requirement? Women MAY wear pantyhose much more commonly with skirts (though plenty of women do wear it with pantsuits as well... you can't simply wear white socks with pantsuits you know), but it does not say that skirts must be worn.

Also in cases were there is no client or special event, 'neat and professional' is all that is required.

PS: Stop messing these things up with facts .