24-01-2003 17:47									#61
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I would think that all the article proves is that France has its share of racist ****ers, just like most other countries. I doubt that the majority of French people are about to march down the streets waving flags with swastikas on and burning down synagogues.

	24-01-2003 17:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I think rather it was the first gesture. The next one is to stop burning down synagogues, but maybe that won't happen because it's not symbolic enough for you? And the point in the article till stands. France is finally (6 years ago) coming to terms with its history (the worst parts of which started 63 years ago).

"I think rather it was the first gesture." No, the first one was in 45, execute french nazis. And this episode, Vichy, you might have learned, was imposed on us. The third republic that was toppled, had a jewish prime minister (Blum), . We had many since (Mendes, Fabius, etc.). Today, the two heads of the PS, the second largest party in France, are jews (strauss khan, fabius). The top selling singer is too (Bruel), as are many top actors, businessmen, journalists, etc. Not bad for a rabid anti-semitic country.

You also probably know that it is illegal to promote/publish/talk about anything loosely antisemitic, and that this law is severely endorced. For example ebay was prosecuted in France for selling nazi memorabilia, and had to hide itself under US legislation.

How does all this info fit your tired clichés?

	24-01-2003 18:20									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Maroule check your facts. The rabbi was lightly stabbed, and after a quick check at the hospital, he walked away, celebrating the day after an eocumenic ceremony with christians and muslim against this type of violence. BTW, he is also a very liberal rabbi that has been accused to be too softs on arabs. Nobody know why he was singled out.

I looked it up and you are right. He did not die; he was stabbed by lived though he did lose his car. Who did it to him is not known but the rabbi was a political leader and someone tried to kill him.

This sort of thing happens in many countries but the Media has been reporting about the events in France recently so it weights heavily in my memory. Next week maybe it will be Alabama or Tunisia but this week it is France.

	24-01-2003 18:30									#64
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oerdin, could they also have BEEN TRYING TO STEAL HIS CAR?!?!?!?!?

	24-01-2003 18:34									#65
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No way, those evil french antisemites steal cars after attacking their victim because they don't want jews to have cars.

	24-01-2003 18:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 oerdin, could they also have BEEN TRYING TO STEAL HIS CAR?!?!?!?!?

Then why yelling "Allah huAkbar!" in the process?

	24-01-2003 18:40									#67
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then how will the jews conspire agains the cobblestone roads of france?

	24-01-2003 18:41									#68
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allah haukbar is french for "i have your car now, you wacky rabbi!"

	24-01-2003 18:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Then why yelling "Allah huAkbar!" in the process?

Because it was the motto of the Vichy state.

	24-01-2003 18:58									#70
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oh ****, i know why he said allah huakbar...because allah let him get away with stealing the car...

	24-01-2003 19:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The new Nazi's are the European left. They join the old Nazi's who never left. Is there anyone left in Europe that is not racist?

I am really sad that even you, Ned seems to believe that.
It gives me the feeling that there is a real misunderstanding in the US of what is the European leftism.

May I just inform you americans that most (if not all) anti-racist movement, organisations,... are called 'leftists' by right-wing people, and even 'communists' by far-right people.
One of the fight of the left-wing in europe is a fight against prejudices. And racism, anti-semitism and xhenophobia are some.

May I just remind you that another common accusation of far-rightist against socialism and communism is 'jewish creation to corrupt the mind of our youth'. And by some way again, it is true that jewish people helped in the left-wing fight.
To call left-wingers racist or anti-semitic is not only absurd, but is close to insult. It is accusating them of being what they fight.

What left-wingers are, and are therefore hated by right-wingers, is anti-nationalists.
Another great left fight is the fight against nationalism (ever heard of Jaures, a french leftist who was killed because he was against the nationalistic war, WW1?).
Nationalism in Europe is synonymous of racism. When a J.M. LePen talks about 'France to Frechmen', everybody knows what he means: 'France to christian white people'. That is european nationalism.
The multicultural situation of the USA is a kind of exception in the pattern. European left-wingers have difficulties to understand the situation in the USA, and with no surprise need to suspect american nationalists of racist tendencies (How the hell can a nationalist NOT be a racist?).

The problem is that many right-wingers do not understand the difference between country and people. They consider nationalism as a normal thing and will thus call left-wingers stupid, or mycountry-haters, or traitors (some of my leftist jewish friends were called traitors by their kin).
Because right-wingers make the confusion between country and people, they may think 'they want to destroy us'.
That is not correct. What left-wingers want to destroy is the concept that links a country, a nation to some peole with the exclusion of others (white vs black, christians vs muslims or ... jews vs pals).
'Evilness' for euro-leftists is a country restricted to some citizens only based on ethnicity, religion, whatever.
The claim of 'Christianity' of Europe to deny Turkey EU membership came from... you guessed: right-wing parties. Surprised? Not me.
And this lead us to Israel.
Leftists have the feeling that Israel has gone too far on the nationalist track, and that Zionism has become a nationalist movement. In their mind nationalism being real close to racism, it is no surprise that some euro leftists have compared Sharon to Hitler.
I know no leftist who would harm a jew (or an arab, or a whatever) and surely not simply because he is jew (that would be real racism). I some some of them who would fight nationalism, be it german, french, arab or jew.

Ok, I want to say more, but another time, maybe. Let's not make this post too long.

	24-01-2003 19:25									#72
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come now, ned lives in a fantasy world and we are beyond reaching him.

	24-01-2003 19:25									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 oerdin, could they also have BEEN TRYING TO STEAL HIS CAR?!?!?!?!?

If they wanted to steal his car then why burn it?

	24-01-2003 19:28									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The article says most of them are going to Israel. Apparently, French anti-Semitism has become unbearable for many French Jews.

That explains why they are so buddy-buddy with Germany then. Birds of a feather and all that...

	24-01-2003 19:30									#75
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The Jews must be leaving France to go to Israel because the food is better in Israel.

	24-01-2003 19:30									#76
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du-h. Zionism is a national movement, it's rather clear. but leftists in europe tend to have no problem whatsoever walking with Islamic clerics against Israel and the US.

	24-01-2003 19:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT That explains why they are so buddy-buddy with Germany then. Birds of a feather and all that...

Naw, the Franco-German raproachmebt has an entirely different object. Those Flemmings and Walloons better watch the hats, coats, and asses, or they are going to lose them now, and the Luxemburgers don't even have a prayer.

	24-01-2003 19:48									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If they wanted to steal his car then why burn it?

Burning destroys the oils that form fingerprints on objects.

	24-01-2003 19:58									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel du-h. Zionism is a national movement, it's rather clear. but leftists in europe tend to have no problem whatsoever walking with Islamic clerics against Israel and the US.

Sorry, but I honestly do not understand this?
Walk with Islamic clerics?

	24-01-2003 20:19									#80
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in demonstartions, that is.

	24-01-2003 20:25									#81
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Of course, no Synagogues have been burned in France. Jewish people have no reason to start to look for the exits. Of course not." Well, let's look at how many jews get killed in acts of antisemitic violence: EU: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all) US: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all) Israel: 100? 200? (unfortunately over the last years)

Over the past 60 years?

I'd say about 20,000 have been killed in Israel over the past 60 years.
I'd say 6 million have been killed in Europe over the past 60 years.

Where would you rather live, especially with antisemitism on the rise in Europe?

	24-01-2003 20:28									#82
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"Over the past 60 years?"

Per year, over the last years.

"Where would you rather live, especially with antisemitism on the rise in Europe?"

On what do you base the idea that antisemitism is on the rise?

	24-01-2003 20:36									#83
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Azazel, It is funny how European leftists like do demonstrate against the US, and Israel. I don't know why that is. Of course there's nothing wrong with peaceful demonstrating, and they are loud minority after all, but I'd like to see the leftist movement protest against suicide bombers, against terrorism, against Saddam Hussein etc. I really don't believe that most of these people are Pro-Saddam etc, but they seem to concentrate on protesting against the US in general and won't make sound against the wrong doings against the US. Maybe they feel that the US is treated sometimes badly, but they won't make a sound. Them to have more credibility they should also make loud statemenst against these too. But I don't know.. I don't belong to that hippie-communist-red-wine-drinking group.. just what I think they think.

	24-01-2003 20:43									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Burning destroys the oils that form fingerprints on objects.

So you are claiming that they wished to destroy his car to destroy there finger prints? That would again indicate the reason was not robbery but politically or anti-semitically related. A thief would have tried to steal the car while a anti-semite would have tried to kill the rabbi and destroy the evidience; which is what happened.

	24-01-2003 21:00									#85
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I'm thinking we owe Germany a big apology for always siding with the French. We should give the Germans the green light for any future attempt with the proviso that they shut those damn French up, and if they can stop them from making whoopie, all the better.

The Leapard would roll right over those AMX tanks from the 60's.

	24-01-2003 21:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Over the past 60 years?" Per year, over the last years.

Well, sure, over the past couple of years, a few hundred have been killed per year. The doesn't change that historically, Israel has been a lot safer. The fact that the holocaust has happened once in Europe is more reason to believe it could happen there again, not less.

quote: On what do you base the idea that antisemitism is on the rise?

The number of antisemitic acts (synogogue burnings, grafitting of Jewish gravestones with swastikas, beating up Jews, etc) in Europe, and especially France, is way up last year, to levels unseen since shortly before the Second World War. To me, that suggests that antisemitism is on the rise.

And when Danish kids are being taught to play Nazi & Jew, that doesn'tinspire much confidence either.

	24-01-2003 21:26									#87
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"The doesn't change that historically, Israel has been a lot safer."

Especially in the time between the 1st century BC and 1948.

"The number of antisemitic acts (synogogue burnings, grafitting of Jewish gravestones with swastikas, beating up Jews, etc) in Europe, and especially France, is way up last year"

The nr of attacks in France is undisputably up. I fail to see nrs supporting that for the rest of europe. Also, as I said before, this is only losely related to the level of antisemitic sentiment.

	24-01-2003 21:59									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel du-h. Zionism is a national movement, it's rather clear. but leftists in europe tend to have no problem whatsoever walking with Islamic clerics against Israel and the US.

so where's the problem in being against the policy of Israeli or US government? Does this automatically mean they're anit-semitic or anti-american?

quote: I'm thinking we owe Germany a big apology for always siding with the French. We should give the Germans the green light for any future attempt with the proviso that they shut those damn French up, and if they can stop them from making whoopie, all the better. The Leapard would roll right over those AMX tanks from the 60's.

I don't have any problems with being sided with the French. France is a great country and I'm sure that the very vast majority of the French will be against any racist
movement in their country....

	24-01-2003 22:05									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So you are claiming that they wished to destroy his car to destroy there finger prints? That would again indicate the reason was not robbery but politically or anti-semitically related. A thief would have tried to steal the car while a anti-semite would have tried to kill the rabbi and destroy the evidience; which is what happened.

Stealing cars for joyriding and then torching them is a common practice amongst youths europewide, I find it difficult to believe that you have not heard of this, I find it more likely that you only want to look for an answer that suits your predjudices.

	24-01-2003 22:12									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin I'm sure that the very vast majority of the French will be against any racist movement in their country....

What's the last time the vast majority of French people have done anything other than be apathetic?

Never. Well, maybe symapthising with the Nazis in WWII but other than that, never.