25-01-2003 22:52									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman That's a strawman argument. The destruction of Israel does not necessarily entail a single death.

It does so long as there is one single Israeli willing to defend it with his life. And I think there are a lot more than one.

	25-01-2003 22:53									#152
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are they benefitting from the US without giving much of anything back to us? they are as close to an arab friend as we have and that counts for something...more than having the freak of the nations as a friend.

	25-01-2003 22:54									#153
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quote: Which is overhelmed by an exploding Palestinian population within 20 years.

I don't see the problem.

quote: Which will work because...

...it did in South Africa. Better than letting them rack up the body count.

quote: He was around before Israel's occupation of the territories. He'll be around until the last Jew in Tel Aviv is sent swimming towards Cyprus.

Arafat... the everliving!

quote: The end result is the same.

It is with that attitude. Alright, solve the problem without killing, deporting or enslaving then.

	25-01-2003 23:07									#154
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 ned, of course i would. i dont think its americas place to protect the israelis. they think they can defend themselves, let them do it. if the nation goes down, it goes down. we cant write the history of the world no matter how hard we want to. it simply isnt right to dictate the future of every single nation on earth.

MRT144, It does appear that the Israeli's themselves increasingly believe they do not need the US. Last year, Sharon virtually ignored Bush and Powell when they demanded an "immediate" withdrawal from the West Bank. Sharon would never have taken the risk of losing American support had it been critical to Israel's existence.

But even so, I also believe that continued US engagement with both the Israeli's and the Arabs is necessary to keep a lid on things and to promote an eventual peace agreement.

IIRC, the US got involved in the '67 war in a major way to prevent a Russian invasion of Israel. We were also critical in ending the '73 war without a similar Russian invasion. We were the one's that got Israel to withdraw from Beruit in '82. We kept Israel out of the Gulf War even though they were attacked.

I also believe our steady support of Israel today is a major reason for the Arab League finally proposing a peace agreement with Israel. If they still had any hope of destroying Israel, there would be no peace.

	25-01-2003 23:12									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 my general principle is that america should look out for america first. and supporting israel doesnt do that. it only damns us in foreign relations with arab countries.

Our freindship with Israel has provided us a lot in return. Israel helped secure the first working Mig-21 in the cold war, as well as other soviet technology. Israel helped prevent a war between Syria and Jordan in 1970. Israel helped by not responding to missile attacks simple because we asked it not to. Israel helped prevent Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons in the 80s. Israeli intelligence has helped American intelligence tremendously (e.g “Israel is worth five CIAs.” ), as has Israeli technology. And Israel is the sole democracy and the closest and most loyal ally in a very important region (ie, our "aircraft in the Middle East")

But if you don't think these have helped America, and would rather we suck up to dictatorial countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Syria, suit yourself.

	25-01-2003 23:17									#156
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do they contribute to our country like mexico, japan, china, france, and the UK? im not talking about this intelligence because if we were on better terms with the arabs and not alienating them maybe we wouldnt have the need for so much intelligence.

so wait, there are two options, blindly support israel or blindly support the arabs. ok, thanks

	25-01-2003 23:25									#158
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MRT144, Do you agree or disagree with the last paragraph in my previous post, which read

"I also believe our steady support of Israel today is a major reason for the Arab League finally proposing a peace agreement with Israel. If they still had any hope of destroying Israel, there would be no peace."

	25-01-2003 23:26									#159
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On Egypt:

quote: Originally posted by MRT144 are they benefitting from the US without giving much of anything back to us?

About the only thing they give back to us is not attacking Israel or us outright (which they wouldn't do anyway cause they don't have the power to).

They still have lots of anti-american propoganda, and hate the US.

Heck, they've even threatened to close the suez canal to any military ships (though I don't know if they've since backed down).

Just how are we benefiting from our relationship with them? Even our relationships with the Jordanians and the Kuwaitis have given us more in return than our relationship with Egypt. Jordan has been much more moderate and helpful, and Kuwait has oil and agreed to take part in any military operation. Just what have the Egyptians given us?

	25-01-2003 23:29									#160
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if israel had gone under this wouldnt be an issue...

i dont know ned. i think its the arabs right to attack israel if they wish and its israels right to defend themselves. its possible you are right ned. i hope you are right. i just hope we havent dug a hole for ourselves that we wont be able to get out of for generations to come.

for egypt, dont they control the suez?

	25-01-2003 23:30									#161
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 do they contribute to our country like mexico, japan, china, france, and the UK? im not talking about this intelligence because if we were on better terms with the arabs and not alienating them maybe we wouldnt have the need for so much intelligence.

Umm, you always need intelligence, no matter what the geopolitical situation is. For example, the information about the Mig was useful in situations like Vietnam, which has nothing to do with the Middle East.

And you don't think setting back Iraq's nuclear program ten years was a benefit to the US?

	25-01-2003 23:32									#162
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i dont think iraq would use nukes

	25-01-2003 23:37									#163
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 if israel had gone under this wouldnt be an issue...

Because the Arabs would turn over and love us if Israel were gone?

With Israel gone, they'd still be in the same horrible situation they have now, with dictatorial governments who, in order to maintain power, divert the attention of their people by attacking other countries and the west, both verbally and physically.

Back at the end of Israel's war of independence, Nasser, who later became the leader of Egypt and led to the 1967 war, and Rabin met each other in a ceasefire negotiation. Nasser told Rabin something along the lines of "we shouldn't be fighting between us, we should be fighting against the imperialist powers" (refering to France and Britain). Arabs don't hate the west because we help Israel. They hate Israel because they see it as the closest instance of the west.

And it's hardly as if all conflicts in the world in muslims are associated with have anything to do with Israel. The Iraq-Iran war? The India-Pakistan tension? Russia v. Chechyens? The Gulf War? etc., etc.

	25-01-2003 23:48									#164
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they wouldnt love us...but they wouldnt be alienated by us.

and please, you really believe that there would be attacks on western targets if there wasnt a "western power" in the middle east? they would just randomly lash out against say parisians and san franciscans alike?

	25-01-2003 23:55									#165
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 and please, you really believe that there would be attacks on western targets if there wasnt a "western power" in the middle east? they would just randomly lash out against say parisians and san franciscans alike?

Given that Al Qaedas reason for attacking us is our troops in Saudi Arabia (there to protect it from Iraq), and not Israel, I'd say, yes.

	25-01-2003 23:58									#166
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are our troops really there to protect them from iraq? can you find a source for that?

	26-01-2003 00:02									#167
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 are our troops really there to protect them from iraq? can you find a source for that?

Well, that and keeping the leadership in power, and not being overthrown by an even more radical element (like Bin Laden)

Take a look here

	26-01-2003 00:05									#168
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so the fact we are controlling a regime in the middle east is leading to the terrorism...man, this is just getting better and better

	26-01-2003 00:10									#169
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 so the fact we are controlling a regime in the middle east is leading to the terrorism...man, this is just getting better and better

Hey, be fair now, we're protecting a regime, not controlling it.

But if you think things would be better with Bin Laden in control of Saudi Arabia....

	26-01-2003 00:13									#170
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i dont think it would be better, but i think that you cant ignore the fact that what we are doing is giving justification to many people to condone terrorism.

	26-01-2003 00:19									#171
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i dont think it would be better, but i think that you cant ignore the fact that what we are doing is giving justification to many people to condone terrorism.

Yes, and not doing so would give Bin Laden a far more powerful base of operations than Afghanistan was - which would mean more attacks. Or in the case of Iraq, more power over the region.

Geopolitics is complicated and sometimes there aren't any good solutions, just the best of a bad lot of solutions.

	26-01-2003 00:33									#172
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 so the fact we are controlling a regime in the middle east is leading to the terrorism...man, this is just getting better and better

There is no such fact. The lie that the U.S. "controls" places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt is often repeated in leftest political circles but it is still just a lie. The truth is the U.S. has influence over states and this influence is mainly derived for America's dominate trade and financial position visa via most of the middle east.

That influence hasn't helped us to get the Saudi's to stop their facist mullahs from spewing hate, to seriously crack down on terrorist financing, nor improve the appaling condition of Arab women. The U.S. has been pushing them towards moderating their stands on issues like this but so far our influence has only gotten window dressing and damn few results.

	26-01-2003 00:35									#173
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i can drink to that edan!