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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Especially in the time between the 1st century BC and 1948.
I don't remember millions of Jews being killed in that land over the last 2000 years. Maybe hundreds of thousands over that span, and maybe a few million kicked out, at a rough guess. But millions killed?
[quote]
The nr of attacks in France is undisputably up. I fail to see nrs supporting that for the rest of europe.
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The statistics I have heard on the news were that antissemitic acts are up in most countries in Europe (including Germany and the UK), but that the rise in France was much, much, much greater.
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Also, as I said before, this is only losely related to the level of antisemitic sentiment. |
The amount of antisemitic acts are only loosely related to antisemitic sentiment? That seems a reach.
I'm not saying that everyone in Europe is antisemitic, or even everyone in France. I'm just pointing out that the level of antisemitism has risen - either there are more people being antisemitic, or those that are are being far more vocal/taking action about it.
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HershOstropoler
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"The statistics I have heard on the news"
Heard? Where exactly? Which statistics?
"The amount of antisemitic acts are only loosely related to antisemitic sentiment? That seems a reach."
Antisemitic sentiment is one thing, activating it to turn violent another. Sentiment can decline overall, and if you have a group that gets triggered into violence, antisemitic violence can rise at the same time.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Heard? Where exactly? Which statistics?
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CNN or MSNBC. They had cited that the number of reported incidents of Europe had gone up, especially in France. I'm affraid I can't find another source, as this was reported about 2 or 3 months ago.
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Antisemitic sentiment is one thing, activating it to turn violent another. Sentiment can decline overall, and if you have a group that gets triggered into violence, antisemitic violence can rise at the same time. |
Perhaps - as I said, one possibility is that those who are antisemitic are more vocal or active.
But if that is the case, questions remain: Why are they able to be more active and vocal? Why aren't good epople trying to do more to stop it? Why do the antisemites feel that the atmosphere now is right for increasing thier actions?
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
So you are claiming that they wished to destroy his car to destroy there finger prints? That would again indicate the reason was not robbery but politically or anti-semitically related. A thief would have tried to steal the car while a anti-semite would have tried to kill the rabbi and destroy the evidience; which is what happened. |
Stolen cars are commonly burnt , to destroy the prints
whether the car was stolen for a joyride, parts, or just
to burn it for the insurance, so your friend gets a new car.
The line between anti-semitic and anti-Israeli is getting blurred. This is turning into a religious war. Was he targeted yes, If anyone else was there they would have
been knifed and robbed too, only it would have only made the local paper for a non-jew.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
The line between anti-semitic and anti-Israeli is getting blurred. |
What line? If being Anti-Israeli means wanting to see Israel, the Jewish country, destroyed, there is no line. If it means not agreeing with the policies of Israel, I would argue that that's not anti-Israeli. in and of itself - just like disagreeing with some of Bush's policies is not anti-American, in and of itself.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Azazel, It is funny how European leftists like do demonstrate against the US, and Israel. I don't know why that is. Of course there's nothing wrong with peaceful demonstrating, and they are loud minority after all, but I'd like to see the leftist movement protest against suicide bombers, against terrorism, against Saddam Hussein etc. |
The left protests against the actions of their own countries, not others. I'm repsonsible for the actions of my government, not Iraq's. I'm partially responsible for the actions of Israel, because some of my taxes go to support their campaign of ethnic cleansing.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
What line? If being Anti-Israeli means wanting to see Israel, the Jewish country, destroyed, there is no line. |
Prime proof. Non- support for the existance of Israel is not anti-semitism. You would make it so? Would you brand a Apache who didn't support the existance of the USA anti-Christian?
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
Prime proof. Non- support for the existance of Israel is not anti-semitism. You would make it so? Would you brand a Apache who didn't support the existance of the USA anti-Christian? |
The destruction of Israel would mean the deaths of a third of the Jewish population - how would that not be anti-semitic?
Fortunatly, Israel has proved to be capable of defending itself from such attacks.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
The destruction of Israel would mean the deaths of a third of the Jewish population - how would that not be anti-semitic? |
So, that still has nothing to do with anti-semitic, you
could kill them all and not be anti-semitic, It's why you
kill them, not how many.
Look up the meaning in the dictionary.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
The new Nazi's are the European left. They join the old Nazi's who never left. Is there anyone left in Europe that is not racist? |
When you would know anything about European history you would acknowledge that it was mainly the left, Liberals and Socialists, that has consistently defended Jewish citizens. Ever heard about Zola and Dreyfus?
Simultaneously, during the Dreyfus case, this is what Herzl wrote:
"In Paris, as I have said, I achieved a freer attitude toward anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognised the emptiness and futility of trying to 'combat' anti-Semitism."
(source: Marvin Lowenthal (ed.), The Diaries of Theodor Herzl)
Another Zionist, the American Ben Frommer, wrote in 1935:
"The fact is undeniable that the Jews collectively are unhealthy and neurotic. Those professional Jews who, wounded to the quick, indignantly deny this truth are the greatest enemies of their race, for they thereby lead them to search for false solutions, or at most palliatives."
(source: Ben Frommer, 'The Significance of a Jewish State', Jewish Call (Shanghai, May 1935), p.10)
And what do you say about this verbatim quote of Emil Ludwig, also a world-famous Zionist:
"Hitler will be forgotten in few years, but he will have a beautiful monument in Palestine. You know', and here the biographer-historian seemed to assume the role of a patriarchal Jew -'the coming of the Nazis was rather a welcome thing. So many of our German Jews were hovering between two coasts; so many of them were riding the treacherous current between the Scylla of assimilation and the Charybdis of a nodding acquaintance with Jewish things. Thousands who seemed to be completely lost to Judaism were brought back to the fold by Hitler, and for that I am personally very grateful to him."
(source: Meyer Steinglass, 'Emil Ludwig before the Judge', American Jewish Times, (April 1936), p. 35)
I could go on for hours, but I will confine myself to point out it was rabbi Stephen Wise, American Zionism's most prestigious figure, who in 1943(!) testified against the rescue Bill in Congress.
The policy of Zionism has been most consistent:
- NEVER combat anti-Semitism; instead exaggerate anti-Semitic violence
- OPPOSE assimilation of Jews
- OPPOSE migration of Jews to all countries but Palestine
Please don't bother to respond; henceforth I will ignore your posts!
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
When you would know anything about European history you would acknowledge that it was mainly the left, Liberals and Socialists, that has consistently defended Jewish citizens. Ever heard about Zola and Dreyfus?
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Right. Because Russia was a great protector of it's Jewish citzens. 
[Snip revisionist propoganda]
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I could go on for hours, but I will confine myself to point out it was rabbi Stephen Wise, American Zionism's most prestigious figure, who in 1943(!) testified against the rescue Bill in Congress.
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Do you meanthis Rabbi Wise?
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Rabbi Wise did not read the details but simply said: "Mr. President, we also beg to submit details and proofs of the horrible facts. We appeal to you, as head of our government, to do all in your power to bring this to the attention of the world and to do all in your power to make an effort to stop it."
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The same Stephen Wise who, in 1933 organized a rally in Madison Square Garden, "protested Nazi persecution of the Jews" which "raised the consciousness of Americans" (_A History of the Holocaust_)
But no doubt, that was "exaggerated anti-Semitic violence." 
quote:
NEVER combat anti-Semitism; instead exaggerate anti-Semitic violence
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You mean the same Zionists who tried to work at saving Rumanian and French Jews despite State department obstructionists?
Do you mean the same Jews who succeeded in rescuing 50,000 jews from Yemen by airlifting them, as well as many more from other neighboring Arab countries? Saved hundreds of thousands from behind the Iron Curtain? Saved tens of thousands from Ethiopia?
quote:
[*]OPPOSE assimilation of Jews
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LOL! Some of the most ardent zionists were some of the least observant of Jews.
Spare me your revisionist crap. It deserves to be flushed down the toilet.
Last edited by Edan on 25-01-2003 at 06:29
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
So, that still has nothing to do with anti-semitic, you
could kill them all and not be anti-semitic, It's why you
kill them, not how many.
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I could argue that you're wrong in your semantic distinction, but I won't bother. Even assuming you were correct, your hypothesis would result in the dead of more than a third of the Jewish population and relegate the rest to a permanent future of persecution and antisemitism that they have already spent 2000 years living through - even if you're only anti-Israeli and not anti-semitic, your aims appear to be pretty much the same - and at the point, I really don't care about any syntactic difference.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
I really don't care about any syntactic difference. |
You mean my mind is made up, and i'm just here to
practice anti-gentilism.
Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
Date: 1882
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
When you accuse someone of something, it is only just and reasonable you know what the words you use mean.
Otherwise your even worse than they are.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I agree with you that T.Herzl, B.Frommer, and E.Ludwig all were evil men. That they were non-observant is irrelevant since they defined a Jew by race, not by religion.
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No, they defined Jews as a nation. And given that antisemites like the Nazis rarely cared whether one was religious and observant or not, or assimilated or not, they had good reason to - since their point in zionism was to be able to defeat anti-semitism - and the way to do that is to protect those that are targeted by it. And considering that there are many non-observant jews who consider themselves Jews, that seems to be valid. The Jewish people, those that considered themselves to be Jewish, always considered themselves to be a nation.
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And without providing evidence -like I did by quoting them verbatim- your juvenile name-calling will convince no one.
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evidence Right.. that was evidence
I cited two sources. Including a link to one primary source. But, of course, that wasn't evidence to you.
As for evidence of some of the people Israel rescued, you could take a look at Heritage - Civilizations and the Jews, or a Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East.
quote:
For your information: the Dreyfus case and Zola were a French, not a Russian affair. Perhaps you should consult an atlas before posting! |
I was refering to the persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union. Or do you think there was none?
Last edited by Edan on 25-01-2003 at 06:58
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
You mean my mind is made up, and i'm just here to
practice anti-gentilism.
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No, I mean that if two groups (ie, radical anti-semites, and anti-Israelis) have the same aims, even if they are two different groups (and I still maintain that anti-Israelis - those who want the dstruction of Israel and those of the Jews who live there - are a subset of anti-semites), and that same aim is evil, I don't see any reason to care about the difference in how they label themselves.
At least one can be an anti-semite (ie, "Jews have long noses", "Jews are greedy", "Jews are crafty, so I want one to be my lawyer"), without wanting the deaths of millions of Jews.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
I don't see any reason to care about the difference in how they label themselves.
At least one can be an anti-semite (ie, "Jews have long noses", "Jews are greedy", "Jews are crafty, so I want one to be my lawyer"), without wanting the deaths of millions of Jews. |
it not how they label themselves, It about how YOU label them. And they in turn label you. Reason ends,
and blind hatred begins.
The Anti-Semites are out to kill Jews and can't be
reasoned with because they are not logical. Others
may have logical reasons for hating israeli, yet wouldn't
harm a Jew living in America, cause they are not anti-semitic. The greivences they have, just or not, can be
settled.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Are you suggesting that Herzl's own diary, and a Zionist newspaper like American Jewish Times, are no reliable sources because we cannot trust the words of a Zionist?
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Cause pbs.org and the books I have on my desk aren't as reliable as where your "sources" came from?
All of your "sources" came from here, here and here. On a site full of revisionist and antisemitic garbage.
And the most telling thing is that you didn't even bother to change your method of source references, you simply highlighted, copied and pasted - resulting in refernces that are identical, down to the spaces, commas and parenthesis.
Last edited by Edan on 25-01-2003 at 08:00
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24-01-2003 22:25
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