25-01-2003 09:38									#121
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I like starting these threads and then once they get going and things are snow-balling nicely I just sit back and enjoy the chaos.

	25-01-2003 10:01									#122
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You are a regular Loki

	25-01-2003 10:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I like starting these threads and then once they get going and things are snow-balling nicely I just sit back and enjoy the chaos.

TROLL

	25-01-2003 10:32									#124
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No, really, I did post the article in good faith but people started taking things personally so I bowed out. I'm all for enlightened discusion but can we all take a deep breath?

	25-01-2003 10:36									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's not a Europe wide phenomenon and I think Ned was just so upset by what he's seen reported that he got mad and made a blanket statement. I'm sure he doesn't really think all of Europe is racist even if he did type it. I also don't think the French are going to rewarm the ovens, so to speak, but never the less there seems to be a considerable amount of lingering cultural bigotry.

Oerdin, You are right here. I was upset and angry. One of the reasons was that I had just seen the movie the Pianist. That is not an easy film to watch.

	25-01-2003 12:05									#126
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Dry, I am not qoing to quote your long post. But if even half of what you say is true about the European left is true, all I can said is that I am with you.

It is just that I saw a lot of leftist demonstratons here against Israel which became ugly and anti-Semitic. I assumed the same was true in Europe.

But, just to make sure, the European left is equally against Arab, anti-Jew, nationalism as well. Right?

	25-01-2003 12:36									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Cause pbs.org and the books I have on my desk aren't as reliable as where your "sources" came from? All of your "sources" came from here, here and here. On a site full of revisionist and antisemitic garbage. And the most telling thing is that you didn't even bother to change your method of source references, you simply highlighted, copied and pasted - resulting in refernces that are identical, down to the spaces, commas and parenthesis.

Edan, Well done! I have been jousting with S. Kroeze for nine months now. His basic theory is that Zionism is racism, Israel is aparthied, and, IIRC, Sharon is a war criminal. He seemed like he was building a case to bring Israel and Sharon up on charges before the new ICC.

When I said what I did about the European left being anti-Semitic racists, I was thinking about my battles with Mr. Kroeze. While one can, in my view, be pro-Arab or pro-Palestinian without being in favor of the destruction of Israel; there are some that do seem to cross that invisible line between policy and hate.

	25-01-2003 17:34									#128
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I hope you accept that claims of an 'exodus' of French Jews are totally unjustified, as are the claims of an 'epidemic' of anti-semitism in Europe.

	25-01-2003 20:10									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz it not how they label themselves, It about how YOU label them. And they in turn label you. Reason ends, and blind hatred begins. The Anti-Semites are out to kill Jews and can't be reasoned with because they are not logical. Others may have logical reasons for hating israeli, yet wouldn't harm a Jew living in America, cause they are not anti-semitic. The greivences they have, just or not, can be settled.

Just like a racist can be a racist and still have black friends, so can an anti-semite be anti-semite without wanting to kill every (or even any) Jews.

You are someone who appears to delight at the thought of millions of Israeli Jews and a million other innocent Israeli civilians dying, and I see no point to further debate this with you. Bigotry and rationality rarely coexist, and I don't see the point of expecting sound logic and intellectual honesty from someone who displays bigotry.

	25-01-2003 20:20									#130
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so are all anti israelis also anti semites?

	25-01-2003 20:22									#131
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 so are all anti israelis also anti semites?

If they want the destruction of Israel that would mean the deaths of millions, yes.

If you are merely question Isralei policy? I wouldn't consider them anti-Israeli, any more than I would consider someone who doesn't agree with Bush's policies as anti-American.

(How come I feel like a broken record? )

	25-01-2003 20:23									#132
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id like to see the destruction of the umbilical cord between mama america and baby israel

	25-01-2003 20:26									#133
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 id like to see the destruction of the umbilical cord between mama america and baby israel

Fine. Go tell your local congressman that, not me.

And given that Israels creation and survival for it's first 20 years had little to do with the US, I find your choice of phrase amusing.

	25-01-2003 20:28									#134
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every israeli here probably thinks im an anti semite though and im just for the record stating that i simply hate the way israeli is a parasite on our country...

	25-01-2003 20:41									#135
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A parasite? Noone forces you to help us. Your government simply feels it would be best to do so. Otherwise, we might interfere with your interests, so you'd rather have us as very obdient friend. (remember, when we sat quietly in 91'? that was your tax dollars at work. )

Don't get me wrong, Israel and the US are true friends, but usually, friends have disagreements as well. That's what the US help is avoiding. Us voicing any objections to any policy of yours, while you're, of course, free to criticize our own.

	25-01-2003 20:51									#136
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i dont criticize israel's policies. i criticize our one way relationship with them. israel is free to do what they want, its their country. do i think the israelis are wrong? sometimes, but then again no one is perfect, certainly not the US.

on the whole though id like to see the US just distance themselves from israel and allow them to run their own country and allow us to conduct diplomacy in the region without having the string of being your friend be a liability.

	25-01-2003 21:00									#137
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quote: If they want the destruction of Israel that would mean the deaths of millions, yes.

That's a strawman argument. The destruction of Israel does not necessarily entail a single death.

	25-01-2003 21:06									#138
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So who gets to take 6 million refugees? Or do you trust Yasser Arafat and his suicide bomber friends with a 40% Jewish minoritty?

	25-01-2003 21:10									#139
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quote: That's a strawman argument. The destruction of Israel does not necessarily entail a single death.

that's a stupid argument.
"The transfer of all the palestinians to Jordan does not necessarily entail a single death".

quote: on the whole though id like to see the US just distance themselves from israel and allow them to run their own country and allow us to conduct diplomacy in the region without having the string of being your friend be a liability.

take it up with the US govt. not with Israel.

	25-01-2003 21:21									#140
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the us government wont listen to me. israel would if i just strapped some C4 with ball bearings to myself and got on a crowded bus in tel aviv

	25-01-2003 21:27									#141
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quote: israel would if i just strapped some C4 with ball bearings to myself and got on a crowded bus in tel aviv

yes, just look how well Israel listens to the palestinians.

	25-01-2003 21:27									#142
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i dont criticize israel's policies. i criticize our one way relationship with them. israel is free to do what they want, its their country. do i think the israelis are wrong? sometimes, but then again no one is perfect, certainly not the US. on the whole though id like to see the US just distance themselves from israel and allow them to run their own country and allow us to conduct diplomacy in the region without having the string of being your friend be a liability.

MRT144, Why do you feel this way? Do you have some general principle of foreign policy in mind?

	25-01-2003 21:33									#143
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haha it was meant to be sarcastic azazel

my general principle is that america should look out for america first. and supporting israel doesnt do that. it only damns us in foreign relations with arab countries.

	25-01-2003 21:42									#144
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MRT144, Would you continue this position if Israel could not survive on her own?

	25-01-2003 21:52									#145
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he probably would. But we can survive on our own.

quote: my general principle is that america should look out for america first. and supporting israel doesnt do that. it only damns us in foreign relations with arab countries.

Apparently your leadership doesn't agree with you.

	25-01-2003 22:03									#146
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quote: So who gets to take 6 million refugees? Or do you trust Yasser Arafat and his suicide bomber friends with a 40% Jewish minoritty?

quote: "The transfer of all the palestinians to Jordan does not necessarily entail a single death".

Replace Israel with a secular non-ethnic state. Have a truth and reconciliation commitee. With no Israel around, there's no need for a paunchy baron like Arafat around either. Chuck him in jail.

That's what I mean by the 'destruction of Israel', not killing, deporting or enslaving.

	25-01-2003 22:06									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Replace Israel with a secular non-ethnic state...

Which is overhelmed by an exploding Palestinian population within 20 years.

quote: Have a truth and reconciliation commitee. ..

Which will work because...

quote: With no Israel around, there's no need for a paunchy baron like Arafat around either. Chuck him in jail.

He was around before Israel's occupation of the territories. He'll be around until the last Jew in Tel Aviv is sent swimming towards Cyprus.

quote: That's what I mean by the 'destruction of Israel', not killing, deporting or enslaving.

The end result is the same.

	25-01-2003 22:17									#148
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ned, of course i would. i dont think its americas place to protect the israelis. they think they can defend themselves, let them do it. if the nation goes down, it goes down. we cant write the history of the world no matter how hard we want to. it simply isnt right to dictate the future of every single nation on earth.

	25-01-2003 22:31									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Edan You are someone who appears to delight at the thought of millions of Israeli Jews and a million other innocent Israeli civilians dying, and I see no point to further debate this with you. Bigotry and rationality rarely coexist, and I don't see the point of expecting sound logic and intellectual honesty from someone who displays bigotry.

How you picked that out of what I posted is not logical.

Enjoy your hatred and pain, and keep the circle of violence and degraded human rights spinning downward. It's easy enough sitting safe in the US, oh
I forgot, attitudes like yours have made nowhere safe
on earth for people. No Killin' in the mid-east and
relax in NY on the weekend.

Oh, And speak Hebrew for now on, cause you obviously
don't understand English, or justice, or truth.

You don't even know what Anti-semitism means.

	25-01-2003 22:51									#150
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 every israeli here probably thinks im an anti semite though and im just for the record stating that i simply hate the way israeli is a parasite on our country...

I take it you think Egypt is a parasite too, right?