25-06-2003 16:30									#301
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I think a chat with Vox is in order. They should get more specifics about the teleport plan (so Aeson should probably attend), and we should more explicitely offer our help in managing everything. I don't mind them trying to do it on their own, but not if it means that we don't get some cities faster. The moment a city gets to size 1, it should be given to us... already I'm only half pleased they are building an extra worker in D-ville. That's okay, as long as it means we get one size 2 city

What I want to say is: I want to let Vox grow, and to have them relatively viable on Lego Minor, but if we can do ourselves a bit better in helping them, and controlling they don't take too much, it would be better.

Oh, we might mention that they don't need all those units, if that means they can take a settler more to their new home.

DeepO

	25-06-2003 16:46									#302
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Alright, let's take Vox's catapults as per Beta's request, but tell him that we intend to sign peace in-game only once they hand over D'Ville to us, and we don't mind not having a RoP for our patrols for the next five turns.

	25-06-2003 18:52									#303
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How about a little loan? (even without interest )

	25-06-2003 19:35									#304
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Loans? no thanks... I don't trust Vox at all, and it will take a long time before I will trust them again. They have absolutely nothing to lose. I do trust that Lego will try to let Vox behave, and I would use that too, however their influence also only goes this far. Once Vox has pikes over on Legos Minor, they are realtively independent again

DeepO

	05-07-2003 09:19									#305
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We need to decide whether we want The Voice intact or whether we want Vox to disband it, and also whether we're willing to pay Vox some gold to help them clear out faster.

Last edited by nbarclay on 05-07-2003 at 13:22

	05-07-2003 14:13									#306
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8 turns early for 120 gold over 20 turns? Is it worth it economically? Nathan? Aeson?

From an overall perspective, I would say yes. The earlier they are gone the better, but not before we have engineering. When do they get that, btw?

Wouldn't we want to keep the Voice? It is another site to pump a settler out of before disbanding to resettle more to our liking.

	05-07-2003 15:26									#307
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Until (and unless) we get our Forbidden Palace moved to Elipolis or its replacement, The Voice won't have the shields it would need to make a viable settler pump. The big advantage to moving the city is that a coastal location would let us work additional coast and sea tiles that are currently out of reach. On the other hand, we would lose the city's granary and would need to an aqueduct to grow past size 6 with a coastal location.

One option would be to take the city and grow it now, and then use it to crank out workers and a settler to build a replacement city (if we haven't already built one) once our Forbidden Palace is moved. That would give us both short-term and longer-term advantages.

Regarding paying to help Vox leave early, from strictly an economic viewpoint, I don't think it matters a huge amount. We'd lose gold but gain a few shields and, more importantly, gain toward producing pop points (which could be converted to workers if we so desire - that option foms the easiest basis for cost/benefit analysis). But if it's what Vox wants to do, the diplomatic advantages probably make the idea worthwhile.

	05-07-2003 15:42									#308
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The Voice: if we declare war on Vox, it could disrupt our lux trading. We're going to have to ask them to abandon it unless we don't mind stopping lux trading for one turn (this will force us to raise the lux slider momentarily though, and cost us a lot of income).

Paying Vox to leave early: my stand would be no. Vox leaving earlier = Lego getting hold of their vassals earlier, and since Nathan says that it doesn't matter much from an economical standpoint, my vote would be nay.

	05-07-2003 16:20									#309
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If we wait until our harbor in the far south is finished (about four turns if I remember right, but I don't have anything in front of me to check), we should be able to declare war without disrupting our trades. (Unless, of course, the game's "is there still a trade route?" code is seriously buggy in terms of ending a trade if the wrong civ started it. But even that shouldn't matter if all the Bobians get our map.)

	05-07-2003 16:39									#310
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3 turns before the harbor in Sufa... and yes, it shouldn't matter

As to giving them money: Why don't we make it a deal? We give them the money now (or in 2 parts), and receive in return their new WM once they settle Legos Minor, and another one 20 turns from now.

I'm not sure on Vox's calculation of capital moving: I thought the system works something like: "add for each city the size, and one eighth of the number of cities, 8 tiles away. The city with the highest number becomes the new capital". In this case, they need all their cities to be at size 1, and the Lego one at size 2 or they can't keep cities here before trying the jump. Culture, AFAIK, doesn't matter.

and ask an eta on engineering, please.

DeepO

	05-07-2003 23:09									#311
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I think 120g for 8 turns of 3 cities is worth it. It's almost 3 pop points (who knows if Vox can/will grow the cities if they are in their hands), access to a harbor (that's ours), and it's 24 shields and 24 commerce. The shields alone are worth 92g... add the 24 commerce and it's pretty close to even just based on what the cities will produce. The 'intangibles' make it a good deal.

	05-07-2003 23:24									#312
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Ok, I'm all for it, and I suggest that we ask for their WM after they move as well.

	07-07-2003 00:30									#313
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As shown in the log, I am inclined to say yes to Beta re the 120 gold, based on responses, and see what we can get in return.

re the Voice. I indicated we probably want it. Even setting it to build a settler, it finishes at some point, and can be rushed with a small amount of gold sooner. Or, it can be set to tax collectors and wealth for production while it waits for a settler from down south before we disband it ourselves. . I see no resaon not to take it. Does anyone else?

	07-07-2003 00:54									#314
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We don't really get any advantage from the alternate location until the forbidden palace is moved, and in the meantime, The Voice can crank out workers (and maybe chop-assisted settlers). We could even found the replacement city while still using The Voice as a source of workers. In other words regardless of whether or not we want to keep The Voice as a permanent city, it makes a useful camp.

	10-07-2003 07:04									#315
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Message received from Beta. They have a counter proposal to the 5 points Beta and I discussed. I am waiting for input before replying.

My concerns. Why would we grant anything for them to hand over the last two cities at Peace + 15?

Are we or they sure of the palace jump? I thought that other cities close by counted heavily. Does the gifted one count? Has anyone ever done this sort of jump? My thinking has been that the only assured way to do it is how I outlined it to Beta. The capital is their only city here and when we occupy it, there is no other possible outcome of the jump.

I am thinking we should decline the counter. Tomorrow would be soon enough. Perhaps some of the Horse units should move back North, just as a precaution. The Vox lady ain't done singing til we stick a fork in her. Or something like that.

	10-07-2003 07:37									#316
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I think we should just let them do it their way. The cities aren't terribly useful to us at this point. I was fine with 120g, and this should put them close to 100g given the upkeep costs they save. Still fine with me.

	10-07-2003 14:27									#317
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Two issues:

1) If they would go into anarchy when they're finished producing units until they get their new cities founded, wouldn't that pretty much solve the gold drain problem? It would cost some production and worker speed, but would make unit support a non-issue.

2) We need to know how big their new capital is before we can feel comfortable that a palace jump won't misfire.

	10-07-2003 17:04									#318
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2) is basically everything, if their capital is size 2, it should work. If it is size 1, there is no other way to do it then nye's last proposal to them

1): maybe they don't want to go into republic, plus with only a couple of cities, or just one, anarchy will only take 1 or 2 turns. But I would propose it to them, to give them one more option.

DeepO

	10-07-2003 17:47									#319
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Probably, they would need to choose Despotism again when they come out of anarchy. But it's workable. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a palace jump working unless their capital is at least two population bigger than any city that would remain in their hands, and probably three bigger.

Another possibility would be:

1) They go into anarchy and give us all their cities on Stormia except for The Voice.

2) We take The Voice, jumping their palace, and then offer peace and give back their cities.

3) They load their units into one of the cities and give it back to us to do the jump.

The anarchy would avoid their losing a lot of gold during the turn that we have custody of their cities.

Last edited by nbarclay on 10-07-2003 at 17:52

	10-07-2003 22:31									#320
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Good ideas. I will hook up with Beta again.

The thing we have to include in the jump equation, is that the Lego city will have foreign pop. That would make it very difficult to jump to with any number of cities over here, wouldn't it?

	11-07-2003 04:21									#321
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I don't know, nye... as far as I know, no formula has been devised taking into account foreign citizens. The safest will certainly be your solution, the formula I saw from badasm (?) only took into account the size of the new capital, and the amount of cities 8 tiles from that city.

DeepO

	11-07-2003 06:39									#322
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SR just nominated this for a Must Read:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=80341

It's been updated to address foreign citizens.

	11-07-2003 07:06									#323
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Cool, I was looking for that.

Just chatting with Beta. He almost begged me to say 'no' to their seven points, so I did. We proceed with the original 5 points. 2 turns to V Day.

	11-07-2003 07:37									#324
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"Are you French?" funny

	11-07-2003 07:50									#325
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And again Vox makes no sense. Must be some internal strife dealing with the handover. Wonder why that is. I must say, I am suprised that they are actually going through with this, I thought they would double cross us, but....

	13-07-2003 14:09									#326
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asleep, I don't think they can double cross us... so they play nice
I missed the last communication, though, but am catching up

DeepO