05-04-2003 21:24									#211
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Loan: oh, right, silly me!!

Btw, I like your projection. Let the Bobians handle the rest of Vox!

	05-04-2003 23:08									#212
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Some very good ideas- especially Feud for the map. I think i can convince Beta this is an essential tech for them in their efforts to settle Bob, and that their getting a 25% discount, compared to other teams...
I'll tell him we're in a need for cash ourselves for various projects- since we're now a Republic we're planning to rush improvements.

Feudalism in Voxian hands is something i hardly believe we'll be able to deny up until our attack- and a map of Bob would be so valuable in the future.

Keep commenting, i'll send a reply in several hours, unless someone comes up with anything that needs further discussion.

	06-04-2003 01:57									#213
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You're suggesting giving them a 25% discount for the map? (150 gold + map)
Yes, that sounds excellent. I really hope that they'll take it.

	06-04-2003 02:08									#214
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let's rethink our ETA on the attack on Vox. Now that we know for sure that they are serious about returning to Bob (they are building up forces, hoarding gold and are asking for tactical assistance), they are becoming useful to us again. If they do it right (we can make sure that they do, with our "tactical assistance"), the Bobians will have a very hard time driving Vox out; whether GoW and ND succeed or fail to drive Vox off of Bob, they would lose many units (Vox will have fortified pikes on hills for defense and immortals for counter-attacks; some should be veterans, as we already know from the shot of the first Vox invasion force that GoW have sent us that Vox has at least one veteran immortal). This would weaken them greatly, perhaps even delay GoW's switch out of Despotism even further.
Let's hold back talks of conquering Vox for a while, and see how well they do on Bob.

Btw, if we refuse to allow Vox to pay us with gpt, they'll get suspicious and might cancel their incursion to Bob and start concentrating defenses. Let's let them live for now, only to strike at Bob, and then conquer them once their military operation is over (either they obtain a stronghold on Bob or lose and get pushed back to "Northern Estonia"), and they are once again of no use to us.

	06-04-2003 02:33									#215
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If we attack Vox, we might strike a deal for a simultanous attack on Vox with GoW. They can't withhold that power on two fronts, their immortals have just be degraded to just another unit, instead of the biggest attacker available in the world. Med. Inf. has the same ADM, only at increased cost, and Bob will can defend with pikes against them.

So how good can they do on Bob, if they go in by force? Any communication with them should mention it (not stress it, but mention it), they need a very solid army to be able to keep a beachhead on Bob.

Is there really another option then to go for Vox first? if we don't take them, we need to invade Bob ourselves, and we're a long way from having decent enough forces to hold our defenses against 2 or 3 determined teams.

ETA on war with Vox: maybe Aeson has a better view on it, when he gets back from his GotM frenzy, but let's assume we'll need at least half our GA of building up forces, and gathering money. It's also safe to assume that we will wait for knights, because we would be fighting pikes. So, that puts as at at least 10 turns after our earliest discovery of feudalism (we need the upgrade money too) for chivalry, also roughly halfway in our GA, being 17 turns from now. Probably a few turns later, for additional reserves, possible loans to GoW, and other things beyond our control.

DeepO

	06-04-2003 04:20									#216
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quote: If we attack Vox, we might strike a deal for a simultanous attack on Vox with GoW. They can't withhold that power on two fronts, their immortals have just be degraded to just another unit, instead of the biggest attacker available in the world. Med. Inf. has the same ADM, only at increased cost, and Bob will can defend with pikes against them.

Good idea. I also believe war with Vox would be our preferred course of action at this point- Vox will stretch over two continents, we'll have an excellent opportunity to use their arrival on Bob for several things:

1) Strengthening our relationships with the northern Bobians, and especially GoW by having an anti-Vox alliance, or a NAP in case we take on Vox alone- we'll tell them that their enemy is also ours, and that we have no interest in their territory

2) Isolating RP- clearly our main threat in this game, along with Lego. By treating the northern Bobians as seperated, striking NAP's with them instead of the Bobians as a whole, we will have a decent shot at RP.

3) The obvious- complete dominance of our continent, which will make it easier to defend it, and would leave us alone to develop it fully- even with our territorial inferiority- our level of development and isolation will give us the necessary edge until we can claim foreign lands (or raid them ).

	06-04-2003 22:11									#217
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's an idea:
Let's tell Vox that we're interested in selling them Feudalism, and that the price that we are offering to every other team is 200 gold or 12 gpt, but in their case, we're willing to make an exception: Feudalism, which would soon become practically essential to Vox's survival on Bob, in exchange for their map of Bob and 5 gpt.
IMHO that's all we can get out of Vox; plus, it doesn't hurt their war efforts.

	06-04-2003 23:57									#218
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Let's make the price a bit higher than that. Map of BOB + 8gpt. I have a feeling we'd be better off with them never getting Feudalism. 15 turns (our research time if we pull back, + NDA's) could be enough time to ensure they never are able to upgrade Spears to Pikes.

	07-04-2003 00:33									#219
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Shouldn't we rather attack Vox only after we've built Leo's, if we're going for it? Attacking Vox 15 turns after we discover Feudalism seems a little wasteful to me, if we can wait a few more turns for Leo's to finish and then do the upgrading, move in the troops (another few turns, I know, but it saves us a lot of cash) and attack.
Anyway, I prefer Aeson's price. Who knows, they might take it, and if they don't, we can always lower it to 6 gpt or 5 gpt and then they'll take it.

	07-04-2003 01:25									#220
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Thing is, we don't have to do much upgrading if we attack before Vox gets Feudalism. Especially if it's timed for when all their Immortals are tied up on BOB. Waiting just gives them more time to upgrade Spears to Pikes... and I'd rather have Horsemen/WC's against Spears than Knights against Pikes. It's more in our favor from an efficiency standpoint.

Leo's still will save us cash in the long run, but waiting for it to hit Vox means we miss our best opportunity to blitz them (early GA), and best opportunity to have the other teams support our actions (Vox's next invasion of BOB).

--------------

That's why I say we ask for a 'good' price from Vox for Feudalism, but one which we are pretty sure they won't accept, or will at least cripple their economy if they do. A map of BOB would be nice, but I'd rather get it as part of an alliance against Vox, than give our next target Feudalism, which they can't get before we hit them if we time things right.

	07-04-2003 01:30									#221
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Vox will never accept an offer of them giving us gpt for no cash up front- they need it badly, Vox won't pay with gold they need for upgrade for a tech when they're stressed with time, offering this now will be a waste of time- and Feudalism will be in their hands before we attack, there's almost no possible way of preventing that.
Also- if they offer the Map for 160 gold, and we tell them we offer the tech for 200 gold- does the tech for the map plus 5 gpt makes sense?
Vox is in terrible shape economically- and getting the map out of them, in exchange for a tech that would make them be a harder foe for Bob right now (for us as well- but they'll get it, IMO, even if we don't sell it to them) is just too good to pass. Giving them a good offer will also show them we're still friends- and giving them some advice will further strengthen their false sense of security.

The Map of Bob and of Vox is such a prize for us now- and you're willing to throw it away just for a chance to delay Vox?.
The map's worth is far more than 160 or 200 gold at this point in the game.

Note that offering them a gpt deal is also problematic, when we'll wage war against them a little while afterwards.

I strongly believe that Feud for the map is very good offer for us.

	07-04-2003 01:56									#222
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That's why we make the offer. We can say "We're offering you the best deal of anyone on it", and they basically have to refuse or throw away any chance they have to actually use it. It looks like we at least are trying to keep them in the loop, but we don't have to face Pikes.

We can delay up to 7 more turns for giving Feudalism away. 7 turns with an NDA. If we wrap the trades up right, that gives us 9 turns in our GA before Vox could get Feudalism. If we really want to hit Vox, that will be enough time to build up a force Vox can't deal with. Depending on when they invade BOB again (sounds like soon), it may even be earlier than that.

We can take out Vox's Iron source on the very first turn of the war. If they get Feudalism after that, so be it, it doesn't do them any good.

	07-04-2003 02:07									#223
	Remove this text

Vox's having many of their immortals on Bob means little if they decide to pull back to our continent again in order to meet our attack. The only way Vox's activities on Bob provide us with significant, safe cover for an attack on Vox is if Vox is actively fighting one or more Bobian civs and has already taken significant losses at the time we decide to attack them. And that's a flock of chickens I'd rather not start counting until they're hatched.

Nathan

	07-04-2003 02:14									#224
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I don't think it is very practical to try to keep Vox from getting pikes. Not only is there the risk we won't be fast enough with our force buildup (I don't hink so, but you never know), but most importantly, we don't want to raise suspicion on Vox.

So, I would assume that we will be facing pikes, and try to make the best out of that, including getting a good deal on Feud from Vox

DeepO

	07-04-2003 02:15									#225
	Got spare money?

quote: That's why we make the offer. We can say "We're offering you the best deal of anyone on it", and they basically have to refuse or throw away any chance they have to actually use it. It looks like we at least are trying to keep them in the loop, but we don't have to face Pikes.

I don't understand- do you want us to offer them a reasonable deal on Feudalism, or delay that?

	07-04-2003 02:30									#226
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Aeson's idea is to try to delay Vox's getting Feudalism so we can attack them while they have spears instead of pikes. That would be a great tactic if we could count on Vox's getting deeply embroiled in a war with Bob in the time frame we're dealing with, but we lose the profits of selling Feudalism to Vox if we offer them a deal they aren't willing to go along with and they end up getting Feudalism from someone else before we get a good opening to attack them. And that's not even considering the effect that whether or not we're still dealing with them might have on how inclined they will be to give us an opening.

Nathan

	07-04-2003 02:39									#227
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We better decide quickly- Vox did let us wait when they had to discuss things, but we want to give them a good impression, and keep them thinking we're friends...

I still believe we should strike that deal with Vox- they're military will be mostly on Bob, and some combined attack with GoW or ND could be arranged so that their defensive forces will be pinned down on Bob while we cut off their Iron and afterwards easily end their existence. Also- putting more effort towards defensive units is just what we would need- an attack on our vulnerable core is what we fear, not a few more pikes instead of spears.

For these reasons and the ones mentioned by Nathan, i say we should offer the deal to Vox.

	07-04-2003 02:39									#228
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I still don't like it. Sorry on last message, BTW, rather large crosspost as I was chatting with Lego...

The problem is that I want that map. I don't care if that alone will mean we won't be able to attack Vox at the perfect time, and will lose a bit more on that, but that map is worth Vox right now (a lot more then 160 gold).

So, if you can find a plan were we both get that map, and can honorably face spears, fine, I'm all for it. Otherwise, we should wait, build up forces, build Leo perhaps, and go in later, at higher price. The map, if given in form of a WM, and not in screenshots, will be very useful for many turns to come, and I'm almost certain that none of the Bobian civs will ever trade it to us when Vox gets erradicated, and they are the next logical target of GS.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 02:42									#229
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BTW, would it be too late to ask for 10 turn NDAs on Feud for all teams? Maybe they won't mind, and it creates more room for us to maneuver in.

Oh, and I agree on the urgency of this, also on the reqeust for strategic advice. We should also discuss that part of their last proposal

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:32									#230
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quote: So, if you can find a plan were we both get that map, and can honorably face spears, fine, I'm all for it.

1. Build our Northernmost border treaty city, hook up a road connection to dissidentville ASAP. ETA if we put a second worker on the job (when we can spare it in 4-6 turns), 10 turns.

2. Have EotS start pumping out Horsemen/Swords/Pikes, we should be able to build 9 by the time Vox could possibly get Feudalism due to NDA's (requires us to build a Barracks in EotS after 2 more Workers). Tornado and Bolderberg can each contribute 2-3 more units each. Add to our WC's we already have and it's enough to take Dissidentville and the Iron crossroad, especially considering the rate at which reinforcements will be available.

Send a Galley (we should have 2 from Typhoon by then) up each coast, and position them so that we have as much warning time as possible should Vox send Galleys S. This is actually what we should hope for, as we get a shot at killing 90 shields of units for 30 and/or Vox is leaving their homeland more open for invasion. Our GA production can easily build double the number of units Vox could land, before they can land them. Plus our added ability to upgrade Warriors if necessary.

3. Stack 6-10 2 move units in that city, and all our Pikes/Swords we have at that point. Vox can't see we have them there, other than that we have a Pike in the city, and the 2 move units are all within striking distance of Dissidentville. Once Dissidentville falls, a fast mover or five (Dissidentville is pop rushing Spearmen and moving them N, so probably only 1 Spear in the city) can get up to the Iron crossroad that same turn, cutting off Vox's Iron. Our Swords and Pikes get to the crossroad the next turn to secure it. Vox's closest city is 4 tiles by road away, Immortals can't react in time, especially ones on BOB.

4. On the 3rd turn, we take the isthmus city with fast movers if we have enough left to take it. Should have 6-8 full health at the Iron crossroads. If we lose/damage more than we should in taking Dissidentvill, send everything we have on the Hill at the chokepoint (minus a Pike to hold the Iron crossroad) and take/raze the chokepoint city the next turn. Wait for reinforcements while killing any units which venture near us. If we raze the city, cut the road so Immortals can't attack us before giving us first shot. If we take the city, the cultural borders should keep us safe as Vox has no Horses. Kill anything and everything that wanders by until we have the forces we feel necessary to take Vox out completely, sending a few Pikes up into their territory to recon where their other Iron source is (if they even have one).

5. The 30 shield per turn city can start pumping out 2 turn Knights if we are willing to spend the cash, 1 turn production (30), rush Med Inf (40), 2nd turn production the Knight is done. Arashi may also be at a good Knight production level at this point (17-18 shields per turn, 3 turn Knights).

6. Show GoW or ND the map we have of N BOB (which basically shows most of their territory anyways), and get their World Map as part of an exchange for Chivalry. Let them bid between themselves to be the one to give us the map for a discount (which equals more upgrades for either of them).

	07-04-2003 03:46									#231
	Inflate your Upload Space

The plan is solid all the way, until you get to point 6. It's a good idea, but I'm definately not sure they would go for it. All it takes is an agreement on Bob, saying they won't sell their WM to GS, and we're out of options. So... if we could offer that to GoW or ND first: fine. Otherwise, we can still keep the plan with one minor change: buy the WM asap for 160 gold from Vox. With a bit of luck, these get transformed to immortals, and send to die on Bob.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:49									#232
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, in stead of asking other teams for extra money if they would get pikes faster, would it be an option to ask for the WM, if we promise not to speed up distributing Feud to Bob? Maybe we can strike a deal here: we mention to Vox that we currently are able to get Feud in 3 turns, but if they pay us 40 gold, we delay it 1 turn. For 160 gold, or a WM, we delay it until turn 7. Payment in front

Kind of cheezy to 5 turns later attack them, though. Not very honorable to say the least.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:54									#233
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Point 6 is just one of numerous ways we can get maps. I think it's a pretty good bet that either ND or GoW would go for it, as they both will want to save as much cash as possible for upgrades. The one to trade us their map first gains ground on their neighbor in a possible upcoming war, by giving us something their neighbor would have likely given us anyways. I'd much rather have Vox with 4 Warriors they can't upgrade than with 4 more Immortals. Warriors make great Leader fodder.

Given how much of the map of both of their territory's that we already have (which we offer to them as evidence with our proposal), I would be suprised if both of them don't jump at the chance. All it really hurts is RP.

	07-04-2003 04:10									#234
	Support Apolyton

I think it requires checking before assuming it. I wouldn't be surprised if RP got them into a 'deny GS our map' deal.

But GoW have been anxious to get some cash from us, this is one of the best things we can offer to them. It will most certainly require us to save some cash, though.

Actually, another, loose Vox comment: would Vox invading Bob again unite GoW and ND enough to keep them from fighting each other once they get knights?

DeepO

	07-04-2003 04:23									#235
	Increase Your PM Length

If there is a 'deny GS our map' we stand to profit from it. Vox is offering us that map... either Vox is breaking the deal, or whoever gave it to Vox is breaking the deal ("we won't trade it to GS, but who we give it to can" is sort of a retarded deal to make).

We should ask GoW (most likely who Vox got it from) if their trading their map to Vox was with an NDA, and state we just want to avoid any problems that would arise if a trade we were considering making would violate any agreements we aren't aware of. We can also ask GoW if they would be willing to give us a better deal on the Map, either as part of the Feudalism trade, or later as part of Chivalry. Mention that we have already seen Lux's maps from screenshots. Let them realize we are shopping for a map, already know most of their territory from Lux, and have already found at least one willing source for an ingame world map.

A similar message to ND should be sent too.

We can send a message to RP as well, stating that we have found a source for maps of their lands, but would like to give them the opportunity to be the one doing the selling. Also inquiring if the maps Vox is in possesion of are legally available for trade.

	07-04-2003 04:31									#236
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Also inquiring if the maps Vox is in possesion of are legally available for trade.

I agree on all comments you make, but this is the most beautyful one. If we ask RP whether Vox is doing it legally, we can be sure that if it was ever discussed on Bob, RP is going to stir tension even higher.

However, there is one downside to this. We basically spoil what deal we can get from Vox, and spoiling secret, diplomatic relation is not very honorable. We should pack the message in such way that we don't need to outright tell a Bobian Vox has offered it to us. We could state it so that they would assume we were talking about Vox, without ever confirming, though.

I would get this out asap to all teams we send the previous offer to: none have answered yet they want to pay a certain amount, so this will push them farther. In the mean time, we might consider asking for a 10-turn NDA, instead of 7, supposedly to better protect our interests.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 04:39									#237
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: We should pack the message in such way that we don't need to outright tell a Bobian Vox has offered it to us. We could state it so that they would assume we were talking about Vox, without ever confirming, though.

Good idea. It should be just as effective, if not moreso, if we don't name any names.

	07-04-2003 05:10									#238
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I just had a wild idea that might or might not be worth considering. If we could arrange to buy land (including Dissidentville) from Vox in exchange for a combination of gold and techs, that might be cheaper for us than taking the land from Vox militarily while at the same time preserving Vox as a thorn in Bob's side (and a possible ally when and if we invade Bob ourselves). I'm not sure how good the idea is or isn't, but I thought I'd go ahead and bring it up for others to consider in the interest of brainstorming.

Nathan

	07-04-2003 05:25									#239
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It could work well. The problem would be then we become accessories to Vox's invasion, at a point in time where we aren't strong enough to take on BOB (what they could possibly land on our shores if unified). We also give up taking anything north of the chokepoint (at least for quite some time), and any chances at Leaders.

They have mentioned how useless Dissidentville is to them, so they might go for it. If that colony is their only Iron source I can't see them selling that area though.

I would put the cost of claiming up to the chokepoint militarily at ~150 shields. The cost of holding it would depend on if/when they could get another sourse of Iron. Without Iron, our defense basically becomes trolling for Leaders. They can't really hurt us with 1 movement 2 defense troops and Galleys, especially once our first Knights start showing up.

-------------------

What exactly does our border treaty with Vox have attached to it? I've read the logs, but it wasn't clear at all when/if it was negotiable to end it.

	07-04-2003 05:43									#240
	Got spare money?

Hmmm... one of the goals of attacking Vox would be to get them completely off our island, making it an easier place to defend. They will never go for something like this. For instance, we might demand all land, including cities, up to (and including) the isthmus), but that can only be achieved if we fully support their outings on Bob, as they have to get half their cities on that side of the channel. It would be much easier for us in the long term if we simply finish them.

One other, not so wild idea: when we declare war, we can offer them assistance if they decide that disbanding is a better tactic to use then us invading cities. If they follow Lux's example, they are welcome to. We would wish them good luck on their journey towards Bob

DeepO