07-04-2003 05:55									#241
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The goal of the border treaty (at least as I saw it) was to take the pressure off of the two teams with regard to REXing and to eliminate REXing contention as a source of possible conflict. No endpoint was contemplated because the treaty's purpose would be completed when Vox settled everything on their side and we settled everything on ours. I can't say for sure how Vox saw the situation, but I'm pretty sure discussions contemporary with the border negotiations made it clear that we weren't ready to commit to a game-long peace treaty.

If it weren't for the fact that Vox can slow Bob down and maybe be of other value in the future, I would definitely regard taking Vox out as more profitable. But if our not fighting Vox means GoW and/or ND lose shields fighting them, that could be worth something to us.

As for our becoming accessories, we would certainly want a commitment from Vox to keep our role quiet. But even if the Bobians find out, there is a huge difference between taking advantage of a mutually beneficial economic opportunity that would help Vox defend themselves if they are attacked and becoming active participants in a war that's already started.

By the way, in some of the early chats, Jon Miller and I discussed the possibility, depending on how things went, of Vox's giving us some land in exchange for military help taking land from Lux. That would provide a nice diplomatic starting point for bringing up the idea of a land purchase with Vox: we'd just be providing economic and technological assistance instead of direct military assistance.

Nathan

	07-04-2003 09:02									#242
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quote: If it weren't for the fact that Vox can slow Bob down and maybe be of other value in the future, I would definitely regard taking Vox out as more profitable. But if our not fighting Vox means GoW and/or ND lose shields fighting them, that could be worth something to us.

The problem is- these are the wrong Bobians- ND and GoW will fight it out themseleves if left alone, but facing Vox backed by GS will unite them, and perhaps RP as well. Our threat is RP, and our global goal should be to isolate them, i think taking out Vox is an important step in that plan.

I like the idea about inquiring RP and ND (wouldn't want to give GoW the idea we're getting a Bob map from Vox), but that doesn't help us with what we tell Vox. Again, we have 3 option that i can think of right now, of how we reply, each with their own costs/benefits:
1) Refuse
2) Buy for gold
3) Try and trade for tech

Could you just comment on that question- Beta is getting quite anxious and that's understandable, given their current situation.

	07-04-2003 12:57									#243
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay As for our becoming accessories, we would certainly want a commitment from Vox to keep our role quiet.

Even with such a commitment, we should assume that they would spill this out on the public forum after we've declared war or after they've been eliminated.

	07-04-2003 20:21									#244
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Okay, i've sent BetaHound a note saying i'm sorry for the delay (RL, blah blah blah) and that hope i'll get back to him by around 7 hours from now... keeping them hanging is not our style, although you can't say they don't deserve it.

Please, tell me what exactly should we reply to Vox with: Refusal, Tech offer, Gold, Something completely different... I really don't know what to say to them: i have my own opinion on this, but ultimately i have to recieve the team's approval on this. If we can't a consensus on a serious issue such as this, we can have some kind of poll- just post here your comment here.

	07-04-2003 21:06									#245
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IMHO: making sure that Feudalism doesn't get to Vox by the time we attack involves having to attack sooner that I'd personally prefer, and raising a lot of suspicions on the Voxian side, plus it'll make it a lot harder for Vox to defend their new beachhead on Bob, and GoW/ND would less less units removing / trying to remove the Voxian presense off of Bob.
Therefore, I would like us to offer them an exchange of Feudalism for their WM. Make sure that they know that we normally charge 200 gold or 12 gpt for this, so this is by far a fair deal to them.

	08-04-2003 02:38									#246
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay- I'm sending Beta an offer.

	08-04-2003 03:37									#247
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At 95 gold (the latest emergency/fire sale price), I'd say buying the map for cash is worth it. I'd forgotten about the fact that Vox has to build Medieval Infantry instead of Immortals (same stats but higher cost) when they get Feudalism; that does make getting Feudalism ASAP not clearly in their best interest. With a little luck, either Vox will use the extra immortals to do some damage to the Bobians or they'll lose the units in warfare so we won't have to face them if we invade, maybe both.

Nathan

	08-04-2003 03:45									#248
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MedInf ain't available for Persia (just like Horsemen for Egypt), they can build Immortals till they get Replaceable Parts.

	08-04-2003 04:20									#249
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95 gold?

Jesus, that is a fricking steal.

	08-04-2003 05:23									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph MedInf ain't available for Persia (just like Horsemen for Egypt), they can build Immortals till they get Replaceable Parts.

Check the upgrade chain in the editor. Swordsmen upgrade to Gallic Swordsmen, which upgrade to Legionaries, which upgrade to Immortals, which upgrade to Medieval Infantry. (That chain is apparently so a single warrior unit common to all civs except the Aztecs can upgrade to whatever unit is appropriate for a given civ.) The reason Egypt's WCs can stay available after horsemen come on the scene without complicating the upgrade mechanics is that WCs are at the beginning of their line instead of being able to be upgraded to from something else, so the same odd manipulation of the tech tree is not needed with them. (And it would be a bit ridiculous to have WCs become obsolete after only one tech in any case.)

Nathan

	08-04-2003 07:38									#251
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Vox is holding the turn waiting for an answer. If there are no objections to my telling them yes in the next half hour to an hour, I'll PM Beta and tell them we agree to 95 gold for their world map since the only three of us who have expressed an opinion (if I haven't missed anyone) are for it.

	08-04-2003 07:52									#252
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Is that an in-game map, or is it out of game? It would be nice to be in-game, as the vox terriroty would be nice to see


6 Immortals and 6 Spearmen 2 galleys 1 settler.


Their invasion force? Interesting. Thats quite a few units for them to unload on Bob. I would think that would leave them with relatively few offensive units at home.

Q:

Is it better for us if they gain a foothold on bob or let GoW know somethings up and have the group destroyed immediately?

The former-the others might think we knew what was up and didnt tell them. Also we couldn't kill Vox outright and thus might be susceptible to Coracles in the former Vox cities.

the latter-vox might find out we betrayed them. Gain trust of GoW

	08-04-2003 07:53									#253
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95 gold is about a turn and a half of research. It's a good deal IMO, but we need to make sure we have 220 gold to rush the Aquaduct in Tempest in 4 more turns. That means pulling back on research.

	08-04-2003 08:21									#254
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Check out http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=82961 for where BetaHound broadcast Vox's plans to the world. No need for us to tell anyone anything.

	08-04-2003 08:29									#255
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Check out http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=82961 for where BetaHound broadcast Vox's plans to the world. No need for us to tell anyone anything.

Well, I guess that's that. Where's the popcorn?

	08-04-2003 08:33									#256
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The best asset of the cobra is silence.

Do nothing abnormal.

	08-04-2003 08:40									#257
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btw, I volunteer to advise Vox on military matters on Bob.

	08-04-2003 08:59									#258
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Beta went ahead and sent the turn on to Lego, so we have until it reaches us to finalize our decision. I went ahead and told Beta that the response so far has been uniformly positive; I figured they'd appreciate the news.

Nathan

	08-04-2003 11:39									#259
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Check the upgrade chain in the editor. Swordsmen upgrade to Gallic Swordsmen, which upgrade to Legionaries, which upgrade to Immortals, which upgrade to Medieval Infantry. (That chain is apparently so a single warrior unit common to all civs except the Aztecs can upgrade to whatever unit is appropriate for a given civ.) The reason Egypt's WCs can stay available after horsemen come on the scene without complicating the upgrade mechanics is that WCs are at the beginning of their line instead of being able to be upgraded to from something else, so the same odd manipulation of the tech tree is not needed with them. (And it would be a bit ridiculous to have WCs become obsolete after only one tech in any case.) Nathan

Check the availability of Medieval Infantry to the civs in the editor and pay attention to the fact, that Persia is left out...

	08-04-2003 16:53									#260
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Call me a simpleton, but I always thought that civs can build their UUs no matter what until they've triggered their Golden Age (by UU win or wonder).

	08-04-2003 17:07									#261
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Btw, I'd relay to Vox that they would have a much easier time at defending W. Wittlich with Pikemen. They'll be facing some fast units, so their best bet would probably be fortifying their strongest defenders inside their hilly city (pikemen would yield 5.25 defense this way, while spearmen would only yield 3.5 defense, which a Med Inf. could easily defeat, especially a veteran), waiting for each wave to attack and then striking the attackers from inside the city with their immortals.
This way, they could turn entire stacks into pulp, but only if they have pikemen (at least that's what we're gonna tell them).

Say, do you think they'll agree to pay us with workers, or build a catapult and let us capture it?

	08-04-2003 18:54									#262
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Wow, Vox is trying again. Heh, I hope they cause a lot of damage over there. Meanwhile, we do our buildup to hit them from behind.

This is beautiful.

-Arrian

	08-04-2003 21:55									#263
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2 Catapults would be more fair. 40 shields x 4 g = 160. Don't think they will go for it, and Workers right now would help us a lot more. 2 pop points extra in our GA can mean double the value in shields, with added commerce as well.

	08-04-2003 22:27									#264
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Since the whole world is slowing down on tech ans so are we- and the only other researcher- GoW will probably won't be thrilled of facing a pikemen armed Vox, and since we have the Voxian MP- we shouldn't try so hard to give Feudalism to Vox.

With all the other teams mostly refuse to our offers- it will take some time before we can sell it to them- and then we can choose to come with good offer to Vox, but if they don't have another source, and no one is gonna buy the tech from us, we might be able to deny the tech until we attack. If we fear we might miss a chance and someone else is gonna sell to them- we can act then.

	11-04-2003 08:35									#265
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Holy Settlers, Batman!!

The Joker must have put some strange gas into Voxian air!!

(and I haven't even gotten to the attack on Grog yet... Arrian, bro', Grog shall be avenged!)

	11-04-2003 08:43									#266
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OMG... reading the Moral High Ground... ROTFL!!

	11-04-2003 08:46									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus OMG... reading the Moral High Ground... ROTFL!!

Yeah thats a good one. Vox certainly doesn't have any credibility on anything. Even if they managed to destroy us, I don't think any other civ would willingly deal with them again.

	11-04-2003 10:05									#268
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Yeah thats a good one. Vox certainly doesn't have any credibility on anything. Even if they managed to destroy us, I don't think any other civ would willingly deal with them again.

Depending, perhaps, on how one defines "deal with them."

	11-04-2003 10:30									#269
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Good point.

	11-04-2003 10:55									#270
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Tsk tsk, and you're critical of them with what you were planning soon...