09-02-2003 21:34									#181
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, about 10% of the victims of rape are men. Mostly by other men, but that is not what Doc was discussing with some others. So maybe those 10% don't matter.

I never said that it was utterly impossible for a woman to rape a man, but it is rare and much more difficult to carry out than for a man to rape a woman.

Men being raped by men does matter, but I was responding first to Che's rumbling about the possiblity of being raped while asleep, then to Urban Ranger's and Alinestra Covelia's postings about women rapeing men.

IIRC about half of the victims of childhood sexual abuse are male.

	09-02-2003 21:45									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie So... if you're "making out" (a really stupid term btw) with a girl, and she says no, you have to stop. Okay, but what if she then takes her clothes off and initiates sex- is that rape? What if the guy says "You said no, so I can't do this. No." at some point as well, but it keeps going... does it mean that each person raped the other?

If you're making out with a girl and you indicate the desire for intercourse, to which she replies "no", but she continues with the making out then you need to ask yourself whether you are comfortable with the situation. If you are OK with continuing things indefinitely at the level she desires then go ahead. If you are going nuts with the desire to consumate the evening then you ought to back away from the situation.
I'm sure that at some point in your life you've encountered a girl who was very interested in you, but whom you wouldn't have been caught dead with. Would it be alright for this girl to have been allowed to "have her way" with you?

	09-02-2003 21:50									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I'm sure that at some point in your life you've encountered a girl who was very interested in you, but whom you wouldn't have been caught dead with. Would it be alright for this girl to have been allowed to "have her way" with you?

If I met a girl that was very intrested in me but that I wouldn't be caught dead with I sure as hell wouldn't lead her on. I definitely wouldn't tease her sexually. Neither would I continue to 'make out' with her all the while saying no. That would just be cruel. Yet millions of women do it everyday all across this great country.

	09-02-2003 21:58									#184
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quote: Originally posted by SirTweek If I met a girl that was very intrested in me but that I wouldn't be caught dead with I sure as hell wouldn't lead her on. I definitely wouldn't tease her sexually. Neither would I continue to 'make out' with her all the while saying no. That would just be cruel. Yet millions of women do it everyday all across this great country.

I was merely trying to illustrate the concept that both parties have the right to determine the nature of their involvement with the other.

Why are girls more finicky about intercourse? Maybe it has something to do with who is lilkely to get "stuck" woth the consequences of the act.

	09-02-2003 22:06									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I was merely trying to illustrate the concept that both parties have the right to determine the nature of their involvement with the other. Why are girls more finicky about intercourse? Maybe it has something to do with who is lilkely to get "stuck" woth the consequences of the act.

Hmmm...stuck with the consequences like how I've become a walking wallet to a women that has been unemployed since the child was born or would that be like how I only can get 2 hour visits once a week to see my firstborn child. Or would those be the consequences she gets like eighteen years of welfare, child support, yearly tax breaks, and a 'baby bonus' cheque every month. Can't forget the power to manipulate me at every oppurtunity with my own daughter. Yeah she has it hard in life.

Personally I think they are more finicky because men let them get away with it, rather then walking away and telling them to get lost when they tease.

	09-02-2003 22:15									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Maybe North Americans are more rational than Europeans, but I can insure you that here, "no" can be a tool in the seduction process, and "no" can be said when the girl is more than willing to accept (according to several female friends). I don't think it is any patronizing to say women use words in a different ways than men. Some women, at the contrary, are quite proud of it.

You missed my point entirely. I was trying to say that regardless of the syllable uttered, women are capable of letting men know what they want. The idea of some women that "say no when they mean yes" does occurr as part of "coy " behaviour anywhere in the world I imagine. But any non-idiot should err on the side of caution if there is any doubt. Respect her wishes if you are in doubt as to what she wants.


I have never been any doubt as to a woman's expressed intention and if you never use force or are so idiotic to think that "rough is how she likes it" ( unless she has let you know this explicitly) you would be in a consensual situation until you are told otherwise


So bottom line for me is that I take NO aseriously but all "no's" are not created equally. Consider that you are caressing a woman in a special way and she murmurs " no no no no " all while removing your shirt and trousers. Later without any force whatsoever and the woman being a full participant in every way, intercourse occurs. Words have a context and anyone who would call this situation a "rape" is a moron.

I'm a married guy and I know that words like " Not tonight", "I'm tired" or even "Lets go to the grocery store" mean NO in the proper context

	09-02-2003 22:53									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove If you're making out with a girl and you indicate the desire for intercourse, to which she replies "no", but she continues with the making out then you need to ask yourself whether you are comfortable with the situation. If you are OK with continuing things indefinitely at the level she desires then go ahead. If you are going nuts with the desire to consumate the evening then you ought to back away from the situation. I'm sure that at some point in your life you've encountered a girl who was very interested in you, but whom you wouldn't have been caught dead with. Would it be alright for this girl to have been allowed to "have her way" with you?

No, it wouldn't have been all right for that girl to have her way with me. However, after I had said no, if I changed my mind, started kissing her and she told me she couldn't continue because I'd said no, and we both ignored the fact we'd each said no, would we have been raping each other?

	09-02-2003 22:58									#188
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Flubber : I wasn't reacting to you. Actually, I find that your point is probably the most well-thought on the issue. I was reacting to Imran's, Che's and other's posts which insist by saying "NO means NO".
I just wanted to say they either live in a completely different society than me, or in a fantasy world.

	10-02-2003 02:18									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Flubber : I wasn't reacting to you. Actually, I find that your point is probably the most well-thought on the issue. I was reacting to Imran's, Che's and other's posts which insist by saying "NO means NO". I just wanted to say they either live in a completely different society than me, or in a fantasy world.

We live in a world where we can go to jail and get raped ourselves for ignoring the word "no." It's a very simple rule. It's not hard to follow, unless you have testosterone poisoning. If she wants to play "no means yes" games, she's not someone you want around.

	10-02-2003 02:33									#190
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OK. I thought Imran, yourself and others actually believed that no always means no
I now understand why you talked like that.

	10-02-2003 02:56									#191
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That means that the rapist population will begin to permanently decline

That's "therapist," Mr. Connery.

	10-02-2003 03:28									#192
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quote: Imran Siddiqui: What you are saying is terribly black and white. As if men should run away in terror every time a woman says 'no'. A vast majority of men don't stop immediately when women say no, yet they still aren't rapists. And a many women don't want men to stop even if they said no. Your "no means no" is an utopy which is not and cannot be true, because people don't want it to be so.

It is not utopia, it is THE LAW! Go right ahead and continue to attempt to initiate sex after the woman says no, but then don't be suprised if she charges you with sexual assault.

Like che said, it ain't hard. When she says no, you stop, or else you are proceeding without consent and that makes you a criminal if she presses charges.

If you want to play Russian Roulette, go right ahead. Don't act shocked if it doesn't turn out the way you want it to.

quote: The truth of the matter is if a woman says no then you can go to jail if you continue. So don't play the game, don't risk your own butt. As soon as she says no, get the hell out of there. Go out and find a woman that doesn't play the game. Find one that isn't going to tease you then leave you cold or pretend she doesn't want to do it so you have to work harder to get it (or buy a nice shiny rock for her to give it to you). Don't fall prey to sexual and emotional manipulation.

Bingo. No means no, because if you continue, and she REALLY meant no, then you can be guilty of sexual assualt.

	10-02-2003 03:30									#193
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We live in a world where we can go to jail and get raped ourselves for ignoring the word "no." It's a very simple rule. It's not hard to follow, unless you have testosterone poisoning. If she wants to play "no means yes" games, she's not someone you want around.

Unless, of course, the "no means yes" thing is explicitly discussed beforehand.

	10-02-2003 03:32									#194
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quote: Originally posted by SirTweek Hmmm...stuck with the consequences like how I've become a walking wallet to a women that has been unemployed since the child was born or would that be like how I only can get 2 hour visits once a week to see my firstborn child. Or would those be the consequences she gets like eighteen years of welfare, child support, yearly tax breaks, and a 'baby bonus' cheque every month. Can't forget the power to manipulate me at every oppurtunity with my own daughter. Yeah she has it hard in life. Personally I think they are more finicky because men let them get away with it, rather then walking away and telling them to get lost when they tease.

Didn't you used to be called something else (can't remember, but you're from Ontario and you had this hate relationship with Asher)

	10-02-2003 05:22									#195
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Frogger

I thought the same thing-- It was blackice or a name like that IIRC

	10-02-2003 05:29									#196
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If that's blackice, he must've taken some english courses, and finally learned that using a dozen 'lol' smilies in each post doesn't make your argument any better.

	10-02-2003 07:48									#197
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, about 10% of the victims of rape are men. Mostly by other men, but that is not what Doc was discussing with some others. So maybe those 10% don't matter.

So does 90% not make "most?" How did your post invalidate mine?

	10-02-2003 09:39									#198
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quote: Originally posted by SirTweek Hmmm...stuck with the consequences like how I've become a walking wallet to a women that has been unemployed since the child was born or would that be like how I only can get 2 hour visits once a week to see my firstborn child. Or would those be the consequences she gets like eighteen years of welfare, child support, yearly tax breaks, and a 'baby bonus' cheque every month. Can't forget the power to manipulate me at every oppurtunity with my own daughter. Yeah she has it hard in life. Personally I think they are more finicky because men let them get away with it, rather then walking away and telling them to get lost when they tease.

I don't know what its like in Canada, but welfare is a pretty meager living here in the USA.

Regarding the "walking wallet" thing last time I checked the majority of men still failed to come through completely when it came to child support payments.

Then there is the nine months of carrying around someone else's body (the baby's) and the nearly day long delivery. One of my favorite women's joke is the comedienne who quips "I couldn't imagine even doing something that I like to do for 12 hours straight."

	10-02-2003 21:33									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It is not utopia, it is THE LAW! Go right ahead and continue to attempt to initiate sex after the woman says no, but then don't be suprised if she charges you with sexual assault.

Well imran I think the point that many of us were trying to make is that the mere fact that the syllable " no" is uttered at some point does not necessarily make sex afterwards a "rape". Absent force, threat of force or severe inebriation, a subsequent verbal affirmative or positive actions would override the "no". A woman can change her mind.

As for playing with fire, anytime you sleep with a stranger there are so many dangers thay are almost uncountable. One is the false allegation of rape (even if the word "no " was never uttered). These situations are pretty rare but if you have no idea as to the mental state of your bed partner, watch out.


If a person is not mature enough or just don't feel comfortable about discussing sexual boundaries (don't want to break the mood) there are playful ways to do things. Assuming you are at a stage where you are comfortable giving her a massage , you could play the up/down/right left game. You tell her that she is the boss and as your hands move you teasingly seek direction. It can be a very fun and playful way for her to allow or not allow as much or as little contact as she wants. Since you obey her "directions", she feels more and more comfortable.

Bottom line . . . ascertain what your partners limits are and respect them.