09-02-2003 00:50									#121
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quote: There is a hell of a lot of difference between the No, kiss, no, kiss, yes scenario and the rape scenario which is NO, NO, NO.

The first scenario may not be as bad, but is still reprehensible conduct.

	09-02-2003 00:53									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Isolated cases are not the rule, they are exceptions. They can make you think, but they can't be used to backup arguments.

This is completely false taken generally.

The fact that I personally know of two cases where this has happened leads me to think that it is more common than one might think. Actually I know of three, but the third is a more difficult case (i.e. I have good, but not conclusive reasons to believe that a rape never took place). I suppose you don't find it problematic that the current political climate means that people can be accused and suffer social and legal penalties without having sufficient evidence presented against them. This means that there is an incentive for people to make false accusations.

The problem here is that some radical feminists believe that rape is a comparative wrong - so that it is reasonable to lock up innocent people because innocent women are raped (I've known people who believe this). This makes a mockery of the justice system in every civilised country. It's like saying we should tolerate the executions of innocent people because innocent people are murdered, but murder is not a comparative wrong, it is not compensated for by the murder of others. Neither is rape.

Look, no amount of rhetoric is going to change the scientifically established fact that women sometimes say "no" when they really mean "yes". Them's just the facts - accept them. People play games with language, what's new.

This doesn't mean that there aren't different ways that a person might say "no", and the cases which involve rape are usually ones where it should be obvious to any reasonable person that consent has not been given.

All it shows in my opinion is that "No means no." is a dumb slogan and would be better replaced with something else.

The background to this is that while I agree with radical feminists about most things, I think they behave like fundamentalists when it comes to rape and sexual harassment. Their arguments are simply bad arguments that rely on bad generalisations such as "all rape is about power" (Sorry, many are, but some aren't in any useful sense anyway) or that sexual harassment is a form of discrimination (sometimes it is, often it isn't).

	09-02-2003 01:00									#123
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Last edited by juhani_kahvi on 09-02-2003 at 02:07

	09-02-2003 01:11									#124
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quote: Look, no amount of rhetoric is going to change the scientifically established fact that women sometimes say "no" when they really mean "yes".

I'm still waiting for that cite.

When a woman says no, you STOP. You do not keep going!

Maybe in hindsight the woman may say, they really meant yes (though I doubt it), but when they say no then, they mean no.

In short, no means no. To propagate a no means yes standard sometimes is incredibly sexist.

	09-02-2003 01:22									#125
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quote: In short, no means no. To propagate a no means yes standard sometimes is incredibly sexist.

Look, the two sexes are different. Also the sentences "women do not have penises" or "in the history of the world women have rarely been great leaders" may sound sexist to someone, but they are simply true.
It is true that there are women who DO mean yes sometimes when they say no. You can say that thinking like this sounds sexist, but it does not make the observation false.

	09-02-2003 01:27									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Look, no amount of rhetoric is going to change the scientifically established fact that women sometimes say "no" when they really mean "yes". I'm still waiting for that cite. When a woman says no, you STOP. You do not keep going! Maybe in hindsight the woman may say, they really meant yes (though I doubt it), but when they say no then, they mean no. In short, no means no. To propagate a no means yes standard sometimes is incredibly sexist.

OK Guys. As a compromise, when a woman says "no" you could stop and talk some more. If she then says "yes" you're covered.

	09-02-2003 01:34									#127
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quote: Originally posted by juhani_kahvi Look, the two sexes are different. Also the sentences "women do not have penises" or "in the history of the world women have rarely been great leaders" may sound sexist to someone, but they are simply true. It is true that there are women who DO mean yes sometimes when they say no. You can say that thinking like this sounds sexist, but it does not make the observation false.

Yes!

	09-02-2003 01:34									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia There have been many cases of sexual abuse by older and larger females of younger and weaker males, eg in childcare and babysitting situations.

The tyke doesn't have intercourse with her though, and I suspect that when she grabs his little penis and tries to stuff it inside of her it will go limp pretty quick.

quote: A man's erection is a physical response - it doesn't mean that he's mentally willing to have sex. Rape is as much a state of mental resistance as it is physical.

I truly believe that there are probably very few men around who could get an erection while being threatened with bodily harm. The physiologic responses of fear are generally contradictory to those of sexual arousal.

quote: Although I have to admit there's something kinda likeable about a guy leaning, splay legged, with his hands on the wall, over a toilet trying to coax his stream from an insistently uncooperative member

Are you a marquesa?

	09-02-2003 01:57									#129
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quote: The tyke doesn't have intercourse with her though, and I suspect that when she grabs his little penis and tries to stuff it inside of her it will go limp pretty quick.

Men can be raped, although it is unusual and it indeed requires additional work to force and erection on a scared and unwilling male. I would also like to point out that men can be forced to give oral sex, and I wouldn't say it is essentially less horrible than actual intercourse.

	09-02-2003 01:57									#130
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quote: Originally posted by juhani_kahvi By the way, if you plan to complain to me about it, I suggest that you don't view it in the first place.

Or just tell a mod that he's linking to pornographic and hateful images.

	09-02-2003 02:00									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I truly believe that there are probably very few men around who could get an erection while being threatened with bodily harm. The physiologic responses of fear are generally contradictory to those of sexual arousal.

I get an erection just by looking at a ball go into a golf hole... I'm sure with a constant friction you could get a man to get erection.

EDIT: On a more serious note, copntradictory? not really. What about raised heartbeat, increase in hormone activity etc etc?

quote: Although I have to admit there's something kinda likeable about a guy leaning, splay legged, with his hands on the wall, over a toilet trying to coax his stream from an insistently uncooperative member

I wouldnt mind being handcuffed and being totally dominated by a hot woman..

	09-02-2003 02:03									#132
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better take the link off, DL.

	09-02-2003 02:17									#133
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It's quite weird: in the movie "40 Days and 40 Nights" the male character is quite clearly raped while he is asleep, yet throughout the rest of the film any blame for the sex that happened at that point is inherently placed upon himself. Never does anyone consider the woman who found him tied up and asleep to have done anything more than sneaky; I find this quite appalling.

I find statements like, "In other words the idea of someone being innocent until proven guilty and the requirement for a decent amount of evidence have gone out the window when it comes to rape" quite baffling really; perhaps the legal systems of the US are the total opposite of the UK, but considering less than 10% of rape accusations actually lead to someone being charged in Britain, and then less than 10% of those cases lead to a conviction, I think it's safe to say this is one instance in which "innocent until proven guilty" if firmly entrenched in the law.

	09-02-2003 02:21									#134
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quote: better take the link off, DL.

How nice to see open-minded people here!
Immediately when somebody which you haven't seen before appears, he's a DL! Great work, guys!

Actually, that guy has been registered since the "evil, evil Finland" -thread.
He's an active poster on many other forums. He even has his own webpages where he
talks lot about himself.
All this is in the front of your noses. Yet you still yell "DL!DL!".

Great work, guys!

(Yep, I agree that the link had some parts not proper for this site...
Propably some crude censoring should've been done...)

I know tath tehre are spelink misstakes, its 11:30 PM heer, gais!

	09-02-2003 02:23									#135
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quote: quote: Although I have to admit there's something kinda likeable about a guy leaning, splay legged, with his hands on the wall, over a toilet trying to coax his stream from an insistently uncooperative member

quote: I wouldnt mind being handcuffed and being totally dominated by a hot woman..

those two quotes sound so wrong together. why? one word:
watersports.

Gibsie: The name doesn't ring a bell. could you tell some more of the script?

	09-02-2003 02:24									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Immediatly when somebody which you haven't seen before appears, he's a DL! Great work, guys!

Settlers in the OT are guilty until proven innocent.

	09-02-2003 02:25									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I find statements like, "In other words the idea of someone being innocent until proven guilty and the requirement for a decent amount of evidence have gone out the window when it comes to rape" quite baffling really; perhaps the legal systems of the US are the total opposite of the UK, but considering less than 10% of rape accusations actually lead to someone being charged in Britain, and then less than 10% of those cases lead to a conviction, I think it's safe to say this is one instance in which "innocent until proven guilty" if firmly entrenched in the law.

My cases were from New Zealand and all within the last 7 years. The main one was at a university where there is added pressure to do something about sexual assault.

Well if that many rape accusations are thrown out for lack of evidence that's fine with me - I only object to innocent people being hounded (no matter how many times the opposite is the case).

	09-02-2003 02:30									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu How nice to see open-minded people here!

I find "open-minded" to be a really bad choice of words when defending juhani_kahvi, considering he just posted a "comic" where a girl gets raped for something she has on her shirt (which is, I believe, ment to be a metaphore for an idealogy).

	09-02-2003 02:30									#139
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quote: Settlers in the OT are guilty until proven innocent.

Care to read my post again?

This guy has been in the OTF before, he has posted a lot in here before.
He has his own homepages which are linked in his sig, there he uses his own nick.

Sheesh.

	09-02-2003 02:37									#140
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oh gawd... Tuomerehu. I used 'DL' as a slur.

"better take the link off, *******"

Is that better?

	09-02-2003 02:42									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I get an erection just by looking at a ball go into a golf hole... I'm sure with a constant friction you could get a man to get erection.

I'm going to have to write your case up and send it to the American Psychiatric Association. as I don't think that we have a formal name for this particular type of paraphilia (fetish). Do we have any latin scholars who can tell me the latin name for a golf hole?

quote: EDIT: On a more serious note, copntradictory? not really. What about raised heartbeat, increase in hormone activity etc etc?

Erection of the penis requires the relaxation of muscles in the walls of the arteries leading to the corpus cavernosae of the penis, opening up the arteries, while the dorsal vein of the penis closes, thus allowing blood to pool in the corpus cavernosae. When you are afraid the very opposite happens, the artery narrows and the vein opens up.
The corpus cavernosae are a pair of cylindrical structures forming the bulk of the shaft of the penis. If you transectioned the shaft of the penis perpendicular to its long axis you'd see that each corpus cavernosum has a central artery surrounded by a mass of blood sinuses, and a tough dense outer sheath.

OK, when I mentioned dissecting the penis what exactly happened to yours? Tell the truth, it went limp didn't it? See what I mean?

Anyone whose penis did the opposite please see me after class.........big boy.

	09-02-2003 02:48									#142
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This experience and some additional information I received in Suomithreadi tells me that this is a lot more conservative forum than I remembered. I will refrain from posting anything scary in the future.

	09-02-2003 03:10									#144
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quote: Originally posted by juhani_kahvi This experience and some additional information I received in Suomithreadi tells me that this is a lot more conservative forum than I remembered. I will refrain from posting anything scary in the future.

Actually... it's a site which allows anyone over 13 to post on it. It is also a site where people with families may be viewing threads in family areas of their homes. Not wanting to expose young people to material inappropriate for their age has little to do with conservatism and a lot to do with being responsible.

	09-02-2003 03:31									#145
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There are a lot of forums with similar definitions (anyone over 13 can post) but where nobody would threaten me if I posted something like that.
Besides, I cannot see how seeing genitals could harm children. Of course seeing violence and murder DOES harm children, but that's not the point. If the comic strip had featured only a couple of murders, nobody would have cared. Violence, illogically, is acceptable, but pictures with sex are not. I think this is conservatism.
And anyway, I won't post this kind of things in the future, so perhaps we could stop brawling and get back to the point.

Last edited by juhani_kahvi on 09-02-2003 at 03:57

	09-02-2003 03:43									#146
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Good point re the point, but I suspect the mods would likewise edit out some of the results of violence which can be found on somethingrotten. At least I hope they would.

Anyways, here's some links for you Doc:

http://www.survivingtothriving.org/malesurvivors

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.eightballmagazine.com/di...iatribes621.htm

I don't know how good that last one is.

	09-02-2003 03:47									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There is a hell of a lot of difference between the No, kiss, no, kiss, yes scenario and the rape scenario which is NO, NO, NO. The first scenario may not be as bad, but is still reprehensible conduct.

Making out is reprehensible? Haven't you ever made out with a woman who was more than willing to go only so far?

Now what if she changes her mind after becoming sufficiently aroused?

In other words, she said no, she said no, she said yes.

	09-02-2003 04:15									#148
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Back on topic, I know most of you have joked about rape and probably haven't even thought a thing about it (male rape). Prison rape is seen as the norm and as something that people can make fun of.

A lot of the people in prison have STDs including AIDS, so being raped by one could be a death sentence, now if that isn't bad tell me what is?

Rape with women though it can hurt a lot goes a lot more smoothly then rape with a man, most men's ass's are very tight and lack lubrication (like women's vagina's) and raping them forcing a blunt object in them rapidily without preparation tears the skin and cause you to bleed like hell and intense pain equal to that of sticking a knife up your ass. How come this never gets any attention?

	09-02-2003 04:31									#149
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The problem with "No means no" is a legal problem in that it is often supposed by feminists to be a sufficient criterion to be the sole determinant of whether informed consent has been given. I think this view is too restrictive - the context needs to be taken into account (as it does with all normal speech acts).

Here's something to look at anyway - the Berkowitz case on p. 2 is interesting.

http://www.themenscenter.com/mensig...ry/femjuris.htm

	09-02-2003 04:36									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The problem with "No means no" is a legal problem in that it is often supposed by feminists to be a sufficient criterion to be the sole determinant of whether informed consent has been given.

There's no problem with "no means no," except for people who don't want to be constrained in their quest for sex and power. It's not a hard or inconvenient rule of thumb. Why do men so vigorously resist simple decency, cuz it's not women who protest the rule? I always told people that if they said no, I'd take them at their word, and go no further. Maybe I didn't get as much sex as I could have, but at least I'm not a rapist.