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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There's no problem with "no means no," except for people who don't want to be constrained in their quest for sex and power. It's not a hard or inconvenient rule of thumb. Why do men so vigorously resist simple decency, cuz it's not women who protest the rule? I always told people that if they said no, I'd take them at their word, and go no further. Maybe I didn't get as much sex as I could have, but at least I'm not a rapist. |
I agree that this is a prudent strategy, but one that not everyone adheres to (and this doesn't make them rapists since people like to play games).
There is a problem though. Read the paper I linked to. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say in it, but they are pretty clear on the rape stuff.
I am claiming two things in agreement with the authors of the article:
(1) Consent on its own as a basis for rape convictions creates problems (it tends to require that the defendant prove consent rather than the state disproving it).
(2) Simply taking saying "no" on it's own and ignoring the context of the utterance, since people often say "no" when they don't mean it, is not a sufficient proof of wrongdoing (there is a prima facie case for reasonable doubt). I urge you to look at the Berkowitz case on p.2 of the linked article. Can you say if this guy is innocent or guilty? I can't - that's why I think he should have been acquitted even if he did do it, because there was reasonable doubt.
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Dr Strangelove
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In the first link they mention the abuse of males chiefly referring to the abuse of boys. No one refutes that boys are sometimes molested by men, but that's not what we're talking about. Women may sometimes molest young adolescent boys too by taking advantage of their naivete. That's a form of rape I suppose, but seducing someone who is unable to give true consent because of his age buit is duped into performing the act is not the same as trying to force someone into performing via the threat of violence.
In the second link the author mentions various means of producing an erection via artificial means. I suppose the rubber band method might work sometimes, but remember that in addition to constricting the outflow of blood via the vein it's also necessary to increase the inflow by dilating the artery. Similar devices are used medically rarely since they don't work all that well. Generally the constricting band has a gap in the center of the side that wraps around the underside of the penis since you want to allow semen to flow out of the urethra. A simple rubber band would constrict the urethra and block the flow of semen. Medical devices usually also include a suction device to increase blood flow into the penis. Remember the first Austin Powers movie? The part about using popsicle sticks makes this article rather questionable, since the female raper would have to stick the sticks inside of herself along with the propped up penis.
In the third article the female rapers conclude that the man wasn't much of a lover. Perhaps it's just not that easy to rape a man in that way.
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shawnmmcc
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First of all, from a man whose been married 10 years and has a very satisfactory intimate life, if you have any sense you stop dating women who play that kind of game (no means yes) very early on. You learn to negotiate, and if they cannot respond and/or will not consider counseling, move on. Ask her for a date after she sees someone to help her through the reason she feels a need to play these games (which very well may came from abuse or rape).
My wife is getting her Ph.D. in psychology, and has done intake assessments for the local semi-private mental health agency. The sexual abuse/victimization without rape of a child/young adolescent has a substantially worse overall outcome than rape in adults. This does not mean that a raped adult with a fragile personality will do better than an abused child who has a strong family and support network, but that on the average the children are lucky if they can ever make it from perpetual victim to survivor status, let alone lead a normal life.
Lastly, and we have had a case in my city recently, flawed models of rapists from the "rape is a crime of violence" caused a rapist to go uncaught and repeat his crime many times in the area. Rape is a crime of violence to the victim only! It may or may not be for the perpetrator. This multiple rapist was only caught via DNA testing following incarceration for a different crime in another state where all convicted felons are tested.
While the predator/power rapist does exist, it turns out this guy was a burgler with no impulse control/morality. A woman would walk in while he was burglarizing her apartment, and if he felt like it he would rape her essentially just to get off. So while the police were searching for the predator/power rapist, he just kept repeating the crime. Plus, since his mood was random, he didn't alwyas commit rape thus defeating the attempt to identify a standard modus operandi.
I have a suspicion, versus my previous statements of fact, that a large number of rapes come from males who are incompletely/improperly/dysfunctionally socialized. This is a very academic way to say that they are miserable excuses of human beings who only look to their own impulses and do not care about the affect on the other person(s). There are numerous anecdotal (individual true statements without a corresponding statistical study) cases of this type of rapist calling the woman back and asking her for a follow up date. They did not perceive that they raped her, even though it was very definitely rape while on a date and the woman was brutalized.
That is why I agree no must mean no, because while yes you may not get laid as much (while single  ) you will not inadvertantly commit a rape. Feel free to keep trying to turn her on, though, as long as she is willing. She may then change her mind. No meant no when she said it, and your skills or just the fact she decided to lay you once to shut you up, and never see you again, caused you to get laid. If you learn to really listen, trust me, you will have a more than satisfactory love life. A single male coworker told me "But it's the same woman, night after night." The ending statement is exactly the point 
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SirTweek
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, about 10% of the victims of rape are men. Mostly by other men |
I seriously believe that this number must be much higher because of prison rapes. Someone before mentioned people with STD's in prisons. This is now used as a method of prison punishment if someone is disliked then they get a guy with AIDS to rape him. The ten percent figure is related to the number of reported cases. Also there is more violence perpetrated against men then against women. We should be against violence in general not against just violence done to one specific gender.
I think rape needs to be taken seriously that's why I'm against the latest witch (or should I say warlock hunt) hunt. Recently I heard someone pushing to have rape being charged if a man sleeps with a women when she is drunk since she can not consent because she is drunk. This is beyond rediculous. Using definitions like this to define rape just cheapens the term when a real rape is done.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:25
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I think that notyoueither has it right
No means NO and yes means yes and any woman has the right to change her mind either way at any time of her own free will.
A woman can spend two days telling me explicitly what sexual things she plans to do with me but retains the right to say NO at any time before or even during any given act. As soon as she says NO I stop-- pure and simple. So it was Yes yes NO and the NO governs.
It works the same in reverse. If a woman says NO I stop what I am doing ( whatever brought on the NO) but I would resume whenever I got an affirmative.. If an affirmative never came, the particular act would not be resumed
Oh and while I am a firm believer in no means no there are many times when a women will utter the syllable "no' when she DEFINITELY does not want you to stop. Any man in a long term relationship will likely know ways to tease/ touch their sig. other in which those syllables are uttered. There is absolutely no problem telling the difference and it isn't some sort of weird head game.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:25
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And a man can be raped
Phusical stimulii can make things function and the man might even find the woman attractive.
Imagine Mr X , married and in love with his wife and adamant in remaining faithful. he might find temptress Y attractive, he might even enjoy sex with her but that would not change the fact that it would be rape if he were tied to the bed and forced into intercourse
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:25
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I also thik it is patronizing to not think that women can know and express what they want. Personally, I have never been in much doubt about what the woman wants ( but I am attracted to confident and articulate women)
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
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quote:
Maybe North Americans are more rational than Europeans, but I can insure you that here, "no" can be a tool in the seduction process, and "no" can be said when the girl is more than willing to accept (according to several female friends).
I don't think it is any patronizing to say women use words in a different ways than men. Some women, at the contrary, are quite proud of it.
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I know that, but still, it IS illegal.
The real problem is that the sex rules ( not laws ) of our society are skewed, to the woman's side. And no, I don't believe in a feminazi conspiracy, it's just that women have more bargaining power in a sexual relationship given to them, by our society, than men.
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SirTweek
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I believe both sex laws and sexual 'bargaining power' are skewed in our society. I don't believe in a feminazi conspiracy but I do believe that feminism has created a huge impact on relationships/family/sexuality. I don't believe in moving back to a traditional family but I think men get the shaft in my society in many ways. What other ideology has had the most influnce in the last few decades. I stand with feminists that believe in equal opportunity and individual responsibility. Every week I read stories of injustice in my local newspapers some of them really sick.
The truth of the matter is if a woman says no then you can go to jail if you continue. So don't play the game, don't risk your own butt. As soon as she says no, get the hell out of there. Go out and find a woman that doesn't play the game. Find one that isn't going to tease you then leave you cold or pretend she doesn't want to do it so you have to work harder to get it (or buy a nice shiny rock for her to give it to you). Don't fall prey to sexual and emotional manipulation.
What more power can a person have then to go into a crowd of men start a rumor about rape and have two dozen men after your blood. Don't let this happen to you. False accusations of rape have destroyed men's careers and sometimes they lose their life over it.
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09-02-2003 04:51
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