26-02-2003 19:53									#61
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I can see that most of you feel strongly for Angus, so we will let him fully heal.

As for the island thing - if we agree that we shall not settle it NOW, it's ok. Let's see how things develop... even if I do not foresee any urgent needs for a naval base there, I do admit that having one on that island (if it is an island) would do no harm. But that would be only after we get a firm hold on our own continent.

And as for the wonder completion date... YES, it IS important to finish the wonder ASAP. Every single turn matters. Would you like to have someone else finish the Pyramids just one or two f*cking turns ahead of us? We would be wasting so much effort... I will do my best to squeeze every little shield in so as to complete the wonders at the earliest possible moment, that I swear. Even if we get lucky and have iron in Panama and/or Jackson, I will only consider worker detours that will actually not affect the wonder completion dates (even if these shift to an earlier date thanks to the extra production of the mined iron hills - every single turn matters).

	26-02-2003 21:45									#62
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I am in agreement with Vondrack on this; every turn definately matters. Too many times have I lost out on a wonder by 1 or 2 turns, and if you don't have something to fall back on, that's a lot of wasted effort. That, and we really need the GLib especially. If we want to stay not only competative, and make ourselves less dependant on the denizens of Bob, this is the only way to do it.

	27-02-2003 05:28									#63
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Wow, lots of talk since last night!

quote: That, and we really need the GLib especially. If we want to stay not only competative, and make ourselves less dependant on the denizens of Bob, this is the only way to do it.

Although I do agree about building at least one wonder now, I am not sure whether we may need GLib necessarily. Currently we are only 1-2 techs behind RP for instance - they have Math (192b), Horseback (120b) and almost Literature (240b) and we are more than half way to Iron Working (75/144 beakers done - 69 left), have Map Making (288 beakers) and Philosophy (144 beakers) - so they are at most 189 beakers or about 7 turns ahead of us - not bad considering our isolation and the fact that they have contacts with the other 5 civs. We should keep GLib as an option though and so continue to build our wonder at Jackson.

But Panama is starting to drain us badly!! Already we will need 2 workers to add to the city , we currently have 2 workers terraforming there and we will need extra military police there so that supposedly we can't send a unit to explore Mystery Isle for huts and geographic information at what might be a strategically important area for our defense!

Re: Mystery Isle I am not talking about settling it either now but we should explore at least part of it on land and try to grab any possible huts before GoW does.

	28-02-2003 06:48									#64
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Plans for 1450BC:

1) Angus S, then E, S
2) Galley NE-E-SE, then E-SE-W, NW-W-W, N-N-W
3) Jason to mine, then road
4) Marky Merc NE, attacking the camp
5) Gaul SE, then to sentry
6) MercG W, heading for the Farmerville area
7) Leopold to move to the horse hill (NE-NE), then to mine
8) Rover E-E-SE, then to road (starting a road to the Karina area)
9) Settler in Legopolis S, then keep S-S-S...
10) MightyMerc W to join the settler, then stick to him
EDIT:
11) Lower the luxury slider as much as possible, while not delaying the discovery of Iron Working.

Last edited by vondrack on 01-03-2003 at 01:11

	28-02-2003 07:37									#65
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Plans for 1450BC:

1) Angus S, then E, S
Absolutely!

2) Galley NE-E-SE, then E-SE-W, NW-W-W, N-N-W
NE-E-SE then E-SE then let's see what is there

3) Jason to mine, then road
Agreed

4) Marky Merc NE, attacking the camp
Yep, should be a piece of cake - 25 more gold

5) Gaul SE, then to sentry
Gaul NE then to sentry - prefer to cover up the horse plus we see a little more

6) MercG W, heading for the Farmerville area
Agreed

7) Leopold to move to the horse hill (NE-NE), then to mine
Ok

8) Rover E-E-SE, then to road (starting a road to the Karina area)
Agreed

9) Settler in Legopolis S, then keep S-S-S...
Yep, on to Forkmouth ?

10) MightyMerc W to join the settler, then stick to him
Like glue with all these barbs around so that he can barbecque those barbs if necessary

What are we doing with Conan? Can we at least move him up to near Jackson if we happen to spot a hut on Mystery Isle (after we dispose of that barb of course)

	28-02-2003 10:12									#66
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Well, by next turn, we'll have confirmation as to whether my beliefs about the existance of mystery isle are true... I don't know about you, but I'm excited!

	28-02-2003 11:24									#67
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1,2,3,4 - agree
5 - hmm, both seem good; maybe NE
6,7,8,9,10 - OK

	28-02-2003 15:43									#68
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As for the settler in Legopolis, I think it should continue to the Karina site, the settler due to be completed in Farmerville should go to Forkmouth....

	02-03-2003 07:41									#69
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Check out the galley, there is a Coast tiles to the East.

The world is getting much smaller guys. I guess we have to explore and hope it's an island.

	02-03-2003 07:47									#70
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Also our game military advisor states there is a barbarian tribe near Jackson. So let's be sure to protect our settler.

	02-03-2003 10:49									#71
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I have a concern about the Legopolis plan - 8 times in the next 40 turns we are working the roaded hill - but there doesn't seem to be any plans to mine that hill or alternatively mine/road the grassland directly south of Legopolis and use that square instead. We have just used that hill for 4 turns already and so have lost some food or shields from it.

Won't we be losing an additional 8 shields if we use the unmined hill or 8 food if we don't improve these Legopolis squares?

We might want to send a worker up there 6 or so turns before turn 79 (just completed turn 63). The grassland area directly south of Legopolis would give us 2-1-2 when mined & roaded (5 turns + 1 movement), and the mined hill would give us 1-2-2 when mined (6 turns). As is we would only get 1-1-2 out of the roaded hill.

	02-03-2003 12:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I have a concern about the Legopolis plan - 8 times in the next 40 turns we are working the roaded hill - but there doesn't seem to be any plans to mine that hill or alternatively mine/road the grassland directly south of Legopolis and use that square instead. We have just used that hill for 4 turns already and so have lost some food or shields from it. Won't we be losing an additional 8 shields if we use the unmined hill or 8 food if we don't improve these Legopolis squares? We might want to send a worker up there 6 or so turns before turn 79 (just completed turn 63). The grassland area directly south of Legopolis would give us 2-1-2 when mined & roaded (5 turns + 1 movement), and the mined hill would give us 1-2-2 when mined (6 turns). As is we would only get 1-1-2 out of the roaded hill.

Steve, don't worry about using the unmined riverbank hill. It will be used to optimize the Legopolis food, shield, and commerce output. While in theory it really means getting 2 food less (and 2 shields less, if not mined), not losing this "lost" food would change nothing, as Legopolis would be overshooting the full food box by exactly 2 food (3+3+3+3=10+2), while it is using the food surplus most efficiently this way (2+2+3+3=10+0).

Likewise, as far as shield output goes, getting an extra shield from that tile would change nothing, since we are building 30-shield builds like 7+7+8+8 (food curve is mirrored: 3+3+2+2), so being able to get any extra shields would only end up wasting them on the completion turn.

This tile will be one of the first to be improved after we finish the Jackson/Panama improvement plans, but for the time being, we do not need to assign any priority to it.

One thing that would be more helpful would be roading the riverbank grassland S of Legopolis. This tile is going to be used twice per every combo build cycle and not having it roaded means waiving two gold... but I guess we can afford that...

	02-03-2003 17:43									#73
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Plans for 1425BC:

1) Angus E, then S, E
2) Galley NE-NE-NE/E

3) Marky Merc E, then N, then sentry

4) Gaul to sentry upon the coastal horse hill

5) MercG NW, heading for the Farmerville area

6) Leopold to mine

7) Rover E-E-SE, then to road (starting a road to the Karina site)
8) Conan E-E-SE, protecting Rover

9) Settler and MightyMerc S, then S-S-S...

10) Start researching Literature at 100%

ad 2) thinking this over and over... considering the fact that we will need to make contact immediately after finishing the Great Library to check the progress of the RP wonder build (which we'd not be able to if circumnavigating our landmass in the counterclockwise direction as I originally intended) and knowing that GoW shall not be naval-enabled for at least 5-6 more turns, I say - let's explore the Mystery Isle then as far as possible, doing our best to avoid getting into contact with GoW. Going NE-NE-NE now will certainly not get us into contact and we may - after all - find out something interesting. Further route to be decided on the next turn.

	02-03-2003 20:26									#74
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quote: One thing that would be more helpful would be roading the riverbank grassland S of Legopolis. This tile is going to be used twice per every combo build cycle and not having it roaded means waiving two gold... but I guess we can afford that...

Actually, the situation regarding the riverbank grassland S of Legopolis is more serious than I realized last night as that square is also our best size 4 square for Legopolis.

According to the Legopolis table on page 1 of this thread, we will be at or above size 4 for 40 of the next 42 turns. So we need to mine/road that square as soon as possible as to limit the loss of commerce.

RedBricks will have completed another worker by turn 66 - it would take 3 more turns for it to arrive at the rivered grassland (turn 69) and then 5 more turns to mine/road that square (turn 74).

We will still end up losing a total of 9 commerce from optimum, but that is better than if we left it longer than that.

The only other alternative would be for Jason to not road the hill that he is currently mining. But he wouldn't finish the mine/road for the Legopolis square until turn 75 and we would lose commerce from the hill square in Jackson as well.

	03-03-2003 00:40									#75
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Continuing my tradition of commenting on Vondrack's turn suggestions in order to increase my post count (j/k )

Plans for 1425BC:

1) Angus E, then S, E
E and S but let us see what is there before the 3rd turn

2) Galley NE-NE-NE/E
Yeah can't tell if the final NE is coast or not for certain, if not then E otherwise either is fine - but if we see there is a lot of land we should make preparations to send a unit over perhaps

3) Marky Merc E, then N, then sentry
East yes, but since Conan is protecting Rover we should send Marky Merc after that barb instead

4) Gaul to sentry upon the coastal horse hill
Agreed

5) MercG NW, heading for the Farmerville area
Agreed

6) Leopold to mine
Agreed, though finally connecting that horse would be nice (yeah I know it has to be connected to Legopolis ...)

7) Rover E-E-SE, then to road (starting a road to the Karina site)
Agreed

8) Conan E-E-SE, protecting Rover
Agreed

9) Settler and MightyMerc S, then S-S-S...
Agreed

10) Start researching Literature at 100%
Agreed - though with GoW approaching we should strongly think about Horseback Riding after that

	03-03-2003 01:06									#76
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Actually how about building 2 warriors or a warrior and an archer instead of one merc this time around in Legopolis?

This would give us additional units admittedly (re: cost of units - but that would decrease when we found our next city) and we could send one or both to mystery isle without risking a merc there.

	05-03-2003 08:35									#77
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Suggestions for 1400bc turn:

1) Angus S (then either SE or S again)
2) Rover to road, Conan to fortify
3) MercG NW
4) Marky Merc to attack barb
5) Mighty Merc and Settler south
6) Jimbo to road
7) Galleyleo
- if heading north - NE-N-NE (or NE-N-N if 3rd move NE isn't possible)
- if heading south - SE-SE-SE (or SE-SE-S if 3rd move SE isn't possible)

	05-03-2003 17:40									#78
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Thanks, Steve, I will reuse you post:

Plans for 1400BC:

1) Angus S, then SE
2) Rover to road, Conan to sentry
3) MercG NW, then W and probably sentry on the iron hill
4) Marky Merc S, attacking that solitary barbarian
5) Mighty Merc + Settler S, then S, S, SE, SE-S
6) Jimbo to road
7) Galleyleo Galleylei N-N-NE
8) set a Panama laborer to work the iron hill instead of the horse hill

ad 3) I would not move MercG too far towards Farmerville, since we will need him down there eventually anyway, while there is little need for him around Farmerville ATM (with Conan, Archers, Marky Merc, and the Settler's escort Merc approaching).

ad 7) I strongly prefer contacting GoW first, not RPers. RPers are strong and likely to keep our contact as their exclusive and push us hard for stuff like maps etc., while GoW is quite weak and in need of us. I believe we're likely to strike better deals with GoW than with RPers (also, GoW, being an underdog, is much more likely to trade our contact around, saving us the need to make contacts the hard way). Thus, I suggest we sail northwards at full speed, trying to make contact with GoW ASAP.

Last edited by vondrack on 06-03-2003 at 01:53

	05-03-2003 19:55									#79
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If we must scrap our isolationist stance, than I agree we must be instigate the contact. Let's meet them on their side of the island and keep them away. Hopefully the island is large and will accomodate their needs.

	07-03-2003 03:26									#80
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Plans for 1375BC:

1) Angus SE
2) MercG W, then sentry on the iron hill
3) Marky Merc N, then N again & sentry upon the hill
4) Mighty Merc + Settler S, then S, SE, SE-S
5) Galleyleo Galleylei N-NE-NE
6) Farmerville Settler W-W-W, then to found Forkmouth

	07-03-2003 03:46									#81
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V: All look good. Don't think I'd have any changes to suggest!

	07-03-2003 03:48									#82
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Actually, scrap that, I do have a change. I would suggest Galleyleio go N-NE-E to hug the coast

	07-03-2003 04:00									#83
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Actually, scrap that, I do have a change. I would suggest Galleyleio go N-NE-E to hug the coast

Well, I thought we decided to make a contact ASAP. GoW are along the coast to the North - that's why I think it would be best to go that way without any detours...

	07-03-2003 07:06									#84
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Plans for 1350BC:

1) Angus S East, then S (EDIT!!!)
2) MercG to sentry
3) Marky Merc N, then sentry upon the hill mountain (of course! )
4) Mighty Merc + Settler S, then SE, SE-S
5) Farmerville Settler to found Forkmouth
6) Galleyleo Galleylei E-SE-S
7) Rover SE, then to road
8) Conan SE, covering Rover
9) Jimbo E-SE, then to road (joining Rover)
EDIT:
10) new Red Bricks Worker to road thanks, Tibi!

ad 8+9) I suggest we put Rover and Jimbo into a roading tandem, building a road SE+SE+SE+S+S+S from where Rover & Conan currently are, connecting the iron in the process

Last edited by vondrack on 07-03-2003 at 14:24

	07-03-2003 08:18									#85
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Plans for 1350BC:

1) Angus S, then S again
Agreed, hopefully that will uncover everything to the east of that - are we heading for the barb village after that?
2) MercG to sentry
Agreed

3) Marky Merc N, then sentry upon the hill
Err on the mountain you mean, although I am not opposed to him "sentrying" on his current hill spot as we have a dark spot 2 squares from Forkmouth and he is 2 squares from Forkmouth (but as Radek said in the chat - we do have the archer nearby too)

4) Mighty Merc + Settler S, then SE, SE-S
Agreed

5) Farmerville Settler to found Forkmouth
Yep!
6) Galleyleo Galleylei E-SE-S
Agreed - that area NE looks different than sea but looks to be too light coloured to be ocean - we should see what it is by going E on the first move

7) Rover SE, then to road
8) Conan SE, covering Rover
Agreed

9) Jimbo E-SE, then to road (joining Rover)
Agreed - are we then trying to reduce the road building to 1 turn each then?

	07-03-2003 11:38									#86
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1. Why not E, then S instead?
2. OK
3. On the mountain, I suppose?
4, 5, 6, 7, 8 - OK
9. OK, even though I would prefer to send Jimbo N-NW from Farmerville to raod and mine.
10 - new Red Bricks worker to road then mine

	07-03-2003 14:23									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 3) Marky Merc N, then sentry upon the hill Err on the mountain you mean, although I am not opposed to him "sentrying" on his current hill spot as we have a dark spot 2 squares from Forkmouth and he is 2 squares from Forkmouth (but as Radek said in the chat - we do have the archer nearby too)

Yes, of course, on the mountain... I would prefer pushing the area under the FoW as far as possible to the west... in case a barb appears in the South, heading for Forkmouth, the Farmerville Archers will be able to strike immediately anywhere along the road from Farmerville to Forkmouth, with Conan able to reinforce Farmerville defenses (almost) immediately, taking advantage of the road from Farmerville to Karina.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 9) Jimbo E-SE, then to road (joining Rover) Agreed - are we then trying to reduce the road building to 1 turn each then?

Yes, that is exactly my intention - this way, we will be able to save 1 turn even for the current Merc+Settler pair heading to Karina. Plus, if both workers stay at the same tile, it will be easier for Conan to protect them. The two workers should road in sync until the iron hill - there, they will split, with one of them roading the iron hill, the other one moving one more tile to the South, to the bonus grassland, and road there. They should be done at exactly the same time, being able to either start extending the road network, or mine the iron hill.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 1. Why not E, then S instead?

Because it was so late in the nigh and I was too lazy to check the timing...

Actually, Tibi is right. It will be better to go E, then S, then SE, then S taking out the barb camp, then W-W-W. This way, if we are lucky and find another goody hut in the yet shrouded part of Legos Minor, we will arrive next to it at the very moment we will discover Literature, thus being easily able to avoid getting the cheapest tech from the hut (no idea which tech will be cheapest for us at that moment, though, as we can trade some with GoW by that time).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 9. OK, even though I would prefer to send Jimbo N-NW from Farmerville to road and mine.

Well, I prefer roading to Karina at full speed because of that Red Bricks shall build yet one more worker before switching to something else (most probably a temple to increase its radius). The worker cannot be built in less than 10 turns due to the growth restrictions anyway... so increasing the shield output of Red Bricks would have no effect. And Farmerville has fully improved tiles enough... so the road, speeding the movement of both settlers and military units seems like a higher priority to me.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 10 - new Red Bricks worker to road then mine

I would road only, then go SE, finish the road there, and only then get back to the current tile, mining it. The reason is the same as in the previous paragraph - having the road finished is an advantage (even if just a small one), while adding shields before the next Red Bricks worker completion has no effect.

	07-03-2003 14:45									#88
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Actually I don't know why I wrote road and mine. I was thinking that Jimbo should road that tile, then move N of Red Bricks and build the road toward Legopolis.

The best would have been to move the new worker N to build the road to Legopolis while Jimbo to build the road from Farmerville to Red Bricks.

	07-03-2003 15:31									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Actually I don't know why I wrote road and mine. I was thinking that Jimbo should road that tile, then move N of Red Bricks and build the road toward Legopolis. The best would have been to move the new worker N to build the road to Legopolis while Jimbo to build the road from Farmerville to Red Bricks.

The problem I have with building a road through those two jungle tiles is that our worker would spend at least 12 turns doing that (1+5+1+5), effectively speeding the movement of our units by 2 turns. Using the same 12 turns, he will be able to build 4 sections of road on an easier terrain (towards Karina).

Also, note, please, that building a road through the two jungle tiles is only one possibility, possibly not the best one... it might be better to build the road S-S-S-S from Legopolis - it'd take exactly the same amount of time (roading a mountain takes the same time as roading jungle, while involving no risk of our worker dying from disease), while making the road-route from Legopolis down to the South shorter by one tile (avoiding one river crossing in addition). Building the road this way would make our units travel from Legopolis to the tile E of Farmerville quicker by a whole turn before Engineering and 1/3 of a turn afterwards, as opposed to building the road (SW)-S-S-(S)-S-SE (the first part being already built, the fourth part being Red Bricks).

	07-03-2003 15:48									#90
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quote: The problem I have with building a road through those two jungle tiles is that our worker would spend at least 12 turns doing that (1+5+1+5), effectively speeding the movement of our units by 2 turns. Using the same 12 turns, he will be able to build 4 sections of road on an easier terrain (towards Karina).

That's true, but not all settlers will go to Karina, or through Karina. Those that will go to Zargonia or other eastern cities will lose precious turns. Other than that, we need those roads not only to speed up settler deployment, but troops deployment too, should that be necessary. While for settlers a 2 turns delay is just that, a delay, for troops it could mean losing a city.
I'm not saying it is a must now nor do I have a problem building the road on the mountain. I was just merely pointing out that we will need that Legopolis-Red Bricks road sooner or later (the sooner the better), like it or not.