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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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First, GoW popped the hut on the Mystery Island and got Polytheism. They are willing to sell it to us for 60 gold (see the GoW thread for more details).
Plans for 1250BC:
1) Angus to skip turn move West
Because of the Polytheism deal with GoW, I suggest we hold Angus back for one turn, maximizing our chances of getting Construction from the hut we would pop on the next turn (being "parked" at Currency at 0%). EDIT: I agree that moving Angus to the West is probably slightly better than leaving him idle.
2) Galleyleo Galleylei S-SW-W
As the hut has already ben popped by GoW, we will just circle the Mystery Island and head for Legos Minor to pick Angus up after he finishes charting the peninsula.
3) Rover & Jimbo to SE, Conan to guard them
4) Mighty Merc to move E
As explained before, I would like to sentry Mighty Merc on the hill NE-NE from the mountain, watching over the area of Zargonia Bay.
5) Settler to move S
Heading for the Karina site
6) shut down our own research
As ND is supposedly 8-10 turns into the research of Currency (info from GoW, gained this turn), it is now quite obvious that we would not be able to beat them, even if researching at 100%. Construction will be researched by GoW... and we shall get Polytheism for 60 gold. That leaves only the gov techs for us... but as we know, we would probably be beaten by GS to Rep and competing with RPers on Monarchy.
There seem to be these options for us now:
a. shut down research to 0%, buy techs
b. try outresearching GS on the Republic
c. try outresearching RPers on the Monarchy
d. try outresearching GoW on Construction
My choice would be - at least for the nearest future - "a". If a "fair price" for Polytheism is 60 gold (worth two turns of our research now), then we should be able to get Currency and Construction for something like 100-150 a piece (worth 3-5 turns of our research). That is much safer than trying to outresearch others...
We may try waiting for just one more turn, pop the hut, and reconsider our strategy then (if we get a tech, we may go for Currency at full speed to get out of the ancient times ASAP).
The ultimate goal is to start researching a medieval technology at the same time (or earlier) as others. That will ensure we get it first, trading it around and finally becoming "a member of the club".
See my later posts - thanks to new infor acquired by redstar1, it now seems that we should be able to outresearch ND to Currency. Let's keep researching it at 100% then.
7) if our contact with RPers shows up, gift them 20 gold
Fulfilling our part of the agreement.
Last edited by vondrack on 14-03-2003 at 16:38
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:25
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1) Angus to skip turn
I agree with Kloreep, move him west instead of nothing.
2) Galleyleo Galleylei S-SW-W
Agreed (unless the W is land of course - hard to tell at the moment)
3) Rover & Jimbo to SE, Conan to guard them
Agreed
4) Mighty Merc to move E
Agreed
5) Settler to move S
Agreed, might want to move MercG to the north to meet him too
6) shut down our own research
Hmm, don't you think that we should ask ND what their situation is before shutting down? At the same time we can perhaps arrange a trade for Currency.
We need confirmation about the Currency situation with ND - GoW has NOT been the most honest and reliable civ in the game so far (their attack and later betrayal of Lux, their "mistake" with Code of Laws with us and even their slow pace in trading our contact around).
I am not yet convinced that GoW isn't feeding us a line here. But why would they do that you ask? To keep us off balanced and to get us to depend on them more and more for tech. They must know that between them, RP, ND and GS - they are researching all of the available techs. The middleman is a very powerful position to be in.
I am still a bit uneasy about shutting down completely - perhaps we could go 50/50 for this turn (or even up to 70% commerce/30% beakers).
We are talking about shutting down our tech development for up to 12-15 turns? Don't forget that if the other civs become aware that we have lots of money, they will also ask for more money for their tech. As well, being in despotism, there are limits to the amount of money a civ needs (yeah, I know they could always use it later too). We must be very careful. I think that we need to figure out which techs we will be able to get from the other civs.
We should be able to get Construction from GoW (if they aren't destroyed that is), Republic from GS.
The main questions are where will we get Currency from? and do we need Monarchy? and if so where will we get it from?
I think the key is ND - we might be able to get Currency directly from them and as I said above we desperately need to know their situation as to how long it will take for them to get it. I might go so far as to establish an embassy with them next turn just to find out what percentage they are researching at (would cost 40 gold when I checked the most recent game save)
7) if our contact with RPers shows up, gift them 20 gold
Fulfilling our part of the agreement.
Agreed
8) With Mighty Merc moving toward the Zargonia location and with MercG and the settler nearing the Karina site, I think that we should move Gaul back to Farmerville and probably move him back so that he can get on Galleyleo as our explorer.
Gaul is our most expendable warrior and we plan to upgrade Howard, Conan and Angus to Swordsmen. We might discover landmasses of our west coast and we can use Gaul to explore them and pop any huts that might be on them.
Sorry, but if we had done the same thing with Galleyleo moving to the east, we would have perhaps gotten Polytheism instead of GoW. That is a small matter now, but we can use Gaul to give us an advantage in exploring the west. We can almost certainly assume that Vox and GS will be looking out for islands in the area east of them.
Last edited by Sharpe on 14-03-2003 at 09:22
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
By the way Vondrack, in your summary, you state that Currency will speed up our tech - I agree - but in the long run when we move away from 100% tech as it will allow us to maintain a higher tech percentage - but in the short term it won't do a lot when we are at 100% tech of course - but that likely won't be for much longer. |
I was not mentioning the happiness effects of marketplaces, but their multiplicative effect on gold revenues. A marketplace in Legopolis, e.g., would raise the gold output of the city by 6 gold, which is as much as Farmerville & Forkmouth currently produce combined.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
We will need construction soon after we get the Pyramids and/or Republic. So if not now, we must get it soon after by research or trade. Currency is a safe tech and hopefully we will be able to outrace ND for it (probably won't ruffle ND's feathers as much as Construction would ruffle GoW's feathers). |
While I do agree with your points on Currency, I do not think we will need Construction that early because of the Pyramids and Republic. In order to be able to manage happiness, we will need to keep city pops reasonably low (6 max), first building a couple of Marketplaces to balance the luxury slider expenses. That said, Construction is still a vital tech, as it is needed to get into medieval times.
quote:
Originally posted by ZargonX
Vondrack: I don't know if I'm the only one having this problem, but I can't see the images in the Chronicle anymore. And when I try to go directly to the page that is hosting them, it gives me an error. Is anyone else having this issue, or is it something on my end? |
Yes, redstar1 is correct. The images are now stored on his machine and if his webserver goes down, so do the images. If this happens, just wait a couple of hours and everything should be ok again.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
1) Angus to skip turn
I agree with Kloreep, move him west instead of nothing. |
OK, no problem, let's move him West.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
6) shut down our own research
Hmm, don't you think that we should ask ND what their situation is before shutting down? At the same time we can perhaps arrange a trade for Currency. |
OK, I just talked with redstar1... he got some info from a source in GS that does not want to be named. The info seems to be okay, as it largely matches what we know from other teams (like GoW being about 20 turns from Construction, which falls into the 17 +/- 5 interval they told me yesterday). The most important info is that ND should be 20+ turns from the Currency now - most probably not researching at 100% (coupled with the info from GoW, which said ND were 8-10 turns into the research of Currency, that would be about 14 beakers per turn research speed, which is quite possible). If that's true, there is still a good chance to outresearch them... so let's keep researching Currency at 100%, hope for a nice hut pop and hope that ND will not speed up in the near future (if they won't within a couple of turns, they will have lost the race). Even if they do, we will end up with just one more mandatory tech to get (Construction from GoW) instead of two... plus, GS will be likely to buy or trade Currency from/with us, rather than with ND.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
We need confirmation about the Currency situation with ND - GoW has NOT been the most honest and reliable civ in the game so far (their attack and later betrayal of Lux, their "mistake" with Code of Laws with us and even their slow pace in trading our contact around). |
Well, while I do agree with the point on having to find out the ND's situation, I do not agree that GoW is not honest. So far, the treatment we received from them was the very best. They offered 2 fine deals and stood in their word even when it meant having to accomodate GS (they went to GS immediately after I pointed the CoL problem to Donegeal, apologizing and asking what they could do to appease them...).
The "slow" pace is not their fault, I am quite sure - the fact that we still have no contact with Estonians is quite probably because GS & Voxes are not willing to pay for it. We do have a contact with ND and RPers now.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
I am still a bit uneasy about shutting down completely - perhaps we could go 50/50 for this turn (or even up to 70% commerce/30% beakers). |
IMHO, this is the worst solution at all - you do not get all the money and you do not get the tech fast... we must make our minds up and go either way.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
The main questions are where will we get Currency from? and do we need Monarchy? and if so where will we get it from? |
We have no need for Monarchy at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
I think the key is ND - we might be able to get Currency directly from them and as I said above we desperately need to know their situation as to how long it will take for them to get it. I might go so far as to establish an embassy with them next turn just to find out what percentage they are researching at (would cost 40 gold when I checked the most recent game save) |
Spending 40 gold just to find out something that can easily change the turn after is too costly, IMHO. I would take those 20+ turns the GS source told us as a reasonable estimate. Makes sense considering the fact they are REXing (=draining their pop), stretching (=suffering from corruption), and unlikely to have a core like we do (since they are said to have started in a bad terrain).
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
Sorry, but if we had done the same thing with Galleyleo moving to the east, we would have perhaps gotten Polytheism instead of GoW. That is a small matter now, but we can use Gaul to give us an advantage in exploring the west. We can almost certainly assume that Vox and GS will be looking out for islands in the area east of them. |
Not true. First, we had no unit to put aboard G.G. from the very beginning (Panama has/had only 1 MP unit and Angus is/was busy exploring Legos Minor - and I cannot recall having any other "idling" units at the time G.G. was leaving Panama). Second, the hut on Mystery Island was popped 4 turns after we spotted it for the first time. There was no way to get our unit there in time. Third, the outcome of a goody hut pop is based upon a RNG roll, not guaranteed from the beginning of the game (IOW: it depends when you pop it... different times bring different pops). So if we popped it before GoW, we might have gotten something quite different.
quote:
Originally posted by ZargonX
One thing we haven't considered is that we can still go for the GLib and become tech-independant from the other teams, for a while at least. Now that we have contact, we will have access to all the techs. It would save us money in the long run, as well as free us from having to go through all these hoops every time we want to research something. Just a thought. |
This would be too costly, IMHO. GLib costs 400 shields... as many as The Pyramids do, which we now need much more. Plus, as it seems, GLib would make us the primary target for everybody else - with GLib, we would make ourselves "unable" to trade techs for techs, effectively "excluding" ourselves from the "club"... So even if this is a possible solution, I do not think it is a good one.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
I don't really agree. I'm actually quite upset. How did we decide what to research last turn? Why did we begin Currency when we knew ND is working on it for a few turns? |
See this thread discussion. We did not know how far into the Currency research ND were. The info that they already are 8-10 turns into Currency was acquired only after we played our last turn. Plus, further info suggests now they may be 8-10 turns into Currency, but at low research speed, having 20+ turns still to go. So, as it seems, our best bet now is to keep researching Currency at 100%.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
If we had begun researching Construction last turn, we could have beaten the GoW (who have just started it) and we could have exchanged it with ND for Currency and Costr+Curr with GS for Republic and we would have been among the first teams to enter the next age. As you can see from our last deal, the biggest problem with these "buy techs with money" deals is that you can't trade the tech around. Now we will be waiting for others to give us techs and lose another few turns until we get them and then get beaten again for the new techs and so on and so forth. Instead of taking initiative we are now falling back in a defensive position and waiting for somebody to throw us a bone when the meal is ready. |
Keep in mind one thing, Tibi. GoW has made us TWO very good tech trade offers already (one of the deals is already closed, another one almost closed). That is 10000% more than anyone else did. If we are forced to piss someone off by outresearching him to his current tech, GoW should be the last ones we should consider. Also, they are the only ones actually capable of messing with settlements on Legos... another thing is that if they research Construction and nobody else does, we will have some extra time (7-8 turns, I think = 220-250 gold) to stockpile cash - sure, we will have to spend some on getting Construction from them, but not all, I believe.
So, there is currently one important change to the plan I proposed earlier. Considering the information we acquired on ND's progress, we shall keep researching Currency at 100%. Plus, Angus will move West, instead of idling.
I will grant you that the information we got from redstar's source is not guaranteed. But it's the best we currently have...
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:25
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I didn't propose to outresearch GoW. I proposed a treaty (research cost spit with GoW) that would have been beneficial for both of us but was never discussed with them because "we didn't want to make GoW too powerful by giving them that much money". Yet in your previous post you were proposing buying Constr. from GoW, which is the same thing, giving GoW a lot of money, while we should probabbly accept a non-whoring clause, thus not being able to trade for Rep. with GS.
If we can outreseach ND then fine, out boat will be back again on the floating line. But if not, the outcome will be worse than in my proposal. Much, much worse: no money, no techs, nothing.
We need an Enlightened. I don't like these ad-hoc decisions taken here, while these are long-run plans.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
I didn't propose to outresearch GoW. I proposed a treaty (research cost spit with GoW) that would have been beneficial for both of us but was never discussed with them because "we didn't want to make GoW too powerful by giving them that much money". Yet in your previous post you were proposing buying Constr. from GoW, which is the same thing, giving GoW a lot of money, while we should probabbly accept a non-whoring clause, thus not being able to trade for Rep. with GS. |
Well, yes, you do have a point... we did not try to make a deal like that with GoW... mostly because they now have an upper hand. With just two key techs missing, they can afford to go "safely" for one of them, almost knowing they will be able to arrange for the last one to be gotten from a trade. I do not really believe they would agree... but I admit,we haven't tried.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
If we can outreseach ND then fine, out boat will be back again on the floating line. But if not, the outcome will be worse than in my proposal. Much, much worse: no money, no techs, nothing. |
Not entirely true - we will have Currency (at least).
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
We need an Enlightened. I don't like these ad-hoc decisions taken here, while these are long-run plans. |
Tibi, I agree we do need someone to organize these things, but currently, even The Enlightened would help very little, since our strategy is based upon very vague information. Just have a look at the developments of the last two turns... we considered The Republic first (because of what GoW & RPers said), then scrapped it (because of GS stating they would get it earlier anyway), then considered and started Currency (beacuse of a "hunch" we could outresearch ND), then wanted to shut the research down (based upon incomplete, yet worrying info from GoW about how far into the Currency research ND are), and plan to go full speed for the Currency now (based upon futher, hopefully more precise info from that GS source). And I do not mention the fact that Polytheism became available like a bolt out of blue...
With this little and unreliable info, no Enlightened would help us. Decision would still have to be taken on the fly.
This said, I do agree we need a replacement for Spiffor. Any volunteers?
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
If I could have a say in what we exchange with who, I'd like to be Enlightened. AFAIR the Enlightened is the one who keeps track of and propose new treaties, isn't it? The only problem is, given my limited online time, I couldn't really be there to negotiate things online, only to plan them offline. How much freedom would I have in proposing possible treaties to other civs? |
The Enlightened never speaks to other civs, that is the job of the Foreign Advisor and ambassadors. However, you would be able to work out and propose deals here, in Legoland. Those we agree upon would then be offered through the official diplomatic channels.
Your main job would be to keep track of treaties and take care about our research goals and slider settings.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
One thing I don't know: how are tech costs becoming beakers? What is the formula? Why is the cost of , say, Currency 16, while in reality it costs 384 beakers? |
Multiply the cost by 24 (map-size related constant).
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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Plans for 1225BC:
1) Angus to move NE, popping the hut
Everybody, keep praying for a technology! 
2) upgrade Howard to a Sworsdman 
3) Robbie to road
...finally connecting Panama to Legopolis.
4) Galleyleo Galleylei SW-SW-W
5) Jason to move S-S
...then clear jungle (12 turns) and road (2 turns), improving the dye tile in the most effective way. He should be done just in time to help manage unhappiness in Panama at pop 6 (avoiding the need for another MP unit there). By clearing out the jungle, he will also make it possible to send our next Legopolis settler to the Dye Fields site. The Settler should arrive there just about when the cleared dye (2-food) tile would become available.
6) Settler from Legopolis to move S
...then S, S, SW, S-SE-SE, SE-S, SE-SE-SE, E, NE, E, and eventually founding Zargonia Bay.
7) Charlie to mine
This one I was pondering about for quite a while. Red Bricks will not be building another worker after the current one is finished - it will start bulding some sort of a culture generating building to expand its radius to get a couple of more good tiles. At this moment, I'm not 100% sure whether we'll go for a Temple or a Library... perhaps a Library (it's generally more useful, produces more culture and the time to completion difference is 7 turns maximum). To waste not a single turn of 2-shield production, we should have a mined grassland ready from the very first turn of the Library/Temple build. Thus, I suggest we mine the tile Charlie is ATM (and start using it right after the new Red Bricks worker is finished).
8) Rover & Jimbo to road, Conan to guard them
9) Mighty Merc to move NE
...then N and sentry
10) "southern" Settler to move S
Heading for the Karina site
11) keep researching Currency at 100%
As our chances to trade Currency for the Republic with GS later on seem to be high, so let's waste no time and go straight for it.
ADDITIONS:
12) Panama to start building a Horseman placeholder
13) Legopolis to start building a Merc
Last edited by vondrack on 15-03-2003 at 21:55
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:25
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Plans for 1225BC
1. Fingers crossed
2. Hmm, I didn't know we have an iron connected 
3. OK
4. OK (where is Galleyleo heading? To explore the west, I hope)
5. OK
6. OK
7. OK, with the observation that I'd go for a temple. The benefits of a library in such a small city are negligible, other than culture, of course, while temples help with happiness and make room for cathedrals (plus culture).
8,9,10,11 OK
On a small note, in all of our southern cities I'd start building temples, to grab more land through cultural expansion. Maybe in some of the cities, those with high growth rate, we can start with a worker, but other than that temples are the way to go, IMHO. (libraries later, after cities grow a bit).
Last edited by Tiberius on 15-03-2003 at 16:09
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
7. OK, with the observation that I'd go for a temple. The benefits of a library in such a small city are negligible, other than culture, of course, while temples help with happiness and make room for cathedrals (plus culture).
On a small note, in all of our southern cities I'd start building temples, to grab more land through cultural expansion. Maybe in some of the cities, those with high growth rate, we can start with a worker, but other than that temples are the way to go, IMHO. (libraries later, after cities grow a bit). |
The reason for going for a Library in Red Bricks is that it is quite close to our capital (->low corruption), plus in an area where almost every tile is along a river (->lots of commerce, once its pop goes up). Up to pop 5 (with Dyes connected), we will not need to worry about hapiness even under Republic)... while OTOH, a Library will boost the scientific research by 50% (could be like +4/+5 beakers per turn!). I would build a Library, then a Marketplace, and only then a Temple (a Worker or Settler somewhere along the way to keep the pop low enough to avoid happiness problems...
For the southern cities, I agree that temples will probably be better, as they are cheaper/faster to build. However, I would emphasize worker production, as producing workers will be a very effective way of using these highly corrupt cities (with a single 2-food source, any city will be able to spit out a worker in 10 turns - and that worker can start improving the city radius to get the shield output to at least 3 per turn...).
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:25
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You're right that if we let Red Bricks grow to size 5, the benefit would be 5 beakers (on 100% science) or 3 beakers (on 90%).
However, if we don't manage to aquire 3 luxuries until then, the second building should be a temple, exactly to let the city grow and benefit even more from the library.
For the southern cities, it is exactly what I was saying: temples and/or workers, depending on the situation, with troops being deployed from Legopolis, Jackson and Panama (I'd like to see at least 1 merc + 1 sword in every border city, if possible 2 mercs + 1 sword in the east, while in the central cities I'd keep some horsemen, later knights, for rapid deployment).
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
You're right that if we let Red Bricks grow to size 5, the benefit would be 5 beakers (on 100% science) or 3 beakers (on 90%).
However, if we don't manage to aquire 3 luxuries until then, the second building should be a temple, exactly to let the city grow and benefit even more from the library. |
Mind you, I was giving just a very rough estimate of the build queue... but the reason for putting a Marketplace before a Temple is that the Marketplace helps pay for the Temple (and not only this one), but not vice-versa. For the core cities, I would build marketplaces before Temples, since they will significantly boost the gold output there, allowing us to use the luxury slider and temples in other cities without falling behind in research. I have played too many SP games where I built lots of units and temples (to grab land), switched to Republic ASAP (since I hate despotism)... only to have to almost shut down my research because of the horrendous unit and structure upkeeps. I am now hesitant to jump to Republic without having few marketplaces in the core cities. Just like a Library brings 4-5 more beakers at pop 5 in Red Bricks, a Marketplace brings 4-5 more gold there (effectively paying for 4-5 Temples throughout the country).
What is important to realize is that this marketplace thing works fine only for core cities - for corrupted cities, the effect of a marketplace is minimal, as most of it is wasted to corruption anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
For the southern cities, it is exactly what I was saying: temples and/or workers, depending on the situation, with troops being deployed from Legopolis, Jackson and Panama (I'd like to see at least 1 merc + 1 sword in every border city, if possible 2 mercs + 1 sword in the east, while in the central cities I'd keep some horsemen, later knights, for rapid deployment). |
This looks fine. I would start with 1 merc, then add a swordsman or a mounted unit (about 50:50 ratio... every other city a swordsman, every other city a mounted unit), and then add yet another strong defender. But it will take us some time before we get to three units per city anyway...
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Mind you, I was giving just a very rough estimate of the build queue... but the reason for putting a Marketplace before a Temple is that the Marketplace helps pay for the Temple (and not only this one), but not vice-versa. For the core cities, I would build marketplaces before Temples, since they will significantly boost the gold output there, allowing us to use the luxury slider and temples in other cities without falling behind in research. |
quote:
Just like a Library brings 4-5 more beakers at pop 5 in Red Bricks, a Marketplace brings 4-5 more gold there (effectively paying for 4-5 Temples throughout the country). |
Radek, unless we go down to 50% or 60% science, building marketplaces has absolutely no effect whatsoever. I tested several scenarios with Red Bricks and even when the research slider was on 70%, the gain with a marketplace was 1 (one) gold in despotism. Building temples in productive cities takes little time, so why not build them now, let the cities grow and then build marketplaces faster than now. We may gain a few turns.
quote:
I have played too many SP games where I built lots of units and temples (to grab land), switched to Republic ASAP (since I hate despotism)... only to have to almost shut down my research because of the horrendous unit and structure upkeeps. I am now hesitant to jump to Republic without having few marketplaces in the core cities. |
Now on this one I agree 100%. We should not move to Republic before we build some marketplaces (like you said, in the core, non-corrupted cities). So should we switch to Rep before we had time to build bith temples and marketplaces, then yes, go for the marketplaces. However, we have many turns until we complete the wonder in Jackson, and until then we won't switch.
Apropos, wonder building: we are going to have a problem. I realized that the Palace in Jackson will be ready in 15 turns while the Pyramids in 27. What are we going to do with those 12 turns? If we switch to the wonder, everybody will know about it.
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13-03-2003 08:20
it's good for them.
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