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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:25
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Azazel - quote:
Ordinary people don't have the same ethics that you people do. |
Yes, we are extraordinary.
quote:
I for once think that taxation is a very moral concept, call it stealing, butchering your wallet, murdering your savings or whatever. |
You thought once? Should have saved it for this thread.  Yes, stealing is a very moral concept. Oops, you call it "taxation", sorry. What euphemism do you have for the Nazis and their genocide? Does it bother you at all that the concept of taxation, from what we can tell, originated with autocratic monarchies or despots, i.e., dictatorships?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
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That was sort of under the definition of Godwin's law, no? 
quote:
Does it bother you at all that the concept of taxation, from what we can tell, originated with autocratic monarchies or despots, i.e., dictatorships?
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No. So did the concept of police, rule of law ( in some monarchies), even the concept of RIGHTS. To which I don't adhere, btw.
quote:
Yes, stealing is a very moral concept
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I am a consequentialist. To me, it CAN be moral.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
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quote:
Assuming I'm willing to quit my job, which most people are unwilling to do. I can go work for someone else. And that's the only reason why you think that capitalism is better than feudalism. |
That's hell of an important thing, Duncan. It's like saying, oh, I can do things I wouldn't be doing otherwise. And that's the only reason why you think that life is better than death  .
I have to concur with choice, but add, much, much, much more social mobility, incredible technological progress, and a vastly improved standard of living.
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DuncanK
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Evil Empire
Dec 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Assuming I'm willing to quit my job, which most people are unwilling to do. I can go work for someone else. And that's the only reason why you think that capitalism is better than feudalism. |
That's hell of an important thing, Duncan. It's like saying, oh, I can do things I wouldn't be doing otherwise. And that's the only reason why you think that life is better than death .
I have to concur with choice, but add, much, much, much more social mobility, incredible technological progress, and a vastly improved standard of living. |
Ok Imran, I can quit my minimum wage job and get a job that pays 300 bucks an hour.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:25
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Berz - quote:
Was the Great Depression a market failure or a failure of government? When your plumber asks to provide you with a service, does he threaten your life if you don't want his service? Nope, your analogy is askew, government is violence and the threat of violence and therefore is only morally allowed to confront others who are initiating violence (or threats thereof) or fraud. Telling the person who will be killed or caged if they don't hand over their money that you aren't really stealing from them works only on those conditioned to accept the theft as "legal". The rest of us know what it is and don't want to be killed, that's why the Mafia got away with stealing from people. |
It was a market failure.
Here are the two elements of market failure
1. Monopolies
2. Externalities
The government did not prevent monopolies from forming. This led to increased costs for everyone. People were spending more and getting less. They cut back consumption, which led to a decrease in supply. Since people were speculating like crazy, when the stock market crashed, everyone who was playing it on credit lost it all. They couldnt pay back the creditors, so they went bankrupt. The creditors couldnt pay back the banks so they went bankrupt. The banks couldnt pay back its lendors, so they went bankrupt. the money supply was constricted and the Fed forgot to drop the interest rates.
Market Failure
Now lets see what happens when you buy something and you dont pay for it. You go to jail. Same with the government. You 'buy' services from the government and if you dont pay you go to jail. Sounds fair to me. And its equal because everyone who doesnt pay goes to jail.
Why isn't a 23% flat tax fair? First of all, total income is a bad way toview this situation. We must look at how much money this person has left after tax. THis is called disposable income. Now, lets say that Timmy makes $100 a year. At the end of being taxed, he has $77 left. Now lets compare Timmy to Bruce, who makes $1000 a year. At 23%, Bruce is left with $770.
Well thats fair, you say. Each of them have paid the same percentage, but Bruce has paid more absolutly. This way, rich people will still pay more for government. But, in fact, it isnt fair. Timmy can barely survive with $77 a year, and Bruce has more money then he can spend. So how do we make this fair? By changing the tax rates so that Timmy gets more disposable income to spend to fuel the economy.
Now lets say that we drop Timmy's tax rate to 0%. The total which the government took in from these two individuals before was $253. With 0% income tax, Timmy now has $100 to spend on himself. Bruce's income tax gets increased by 2.3%, to 25.3%. Bruces disposable income is now $747.
Both individuals now have enough money to live on, and the government is still making the same amount as before
For the Libs, it is not fair in the sense that the tax rates are different, but it is fair because the government is taking money which is less likely to be used and is giving money back to the people who are more likely to use it. This is fair in that both individuals now have enough money to live a decent life.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
Well thats fair, you say. Each of them have paid the same percentage, but Bruce has paid more absolutly. This way, rich people will still pay more for government. But, in fact, it isnt fair. Timmy can barely survive with $77 a year, and Bruce has more money then he can spend. So how do we make this fair? By changing the tax rates so that Timmy gets more disposable income to spend to fuel the economy.
Now lets say that we drop Timmy's tax rate to 0%. The total which the government took in from these two individuals before was $253. With 0% income tax, Timmy now has $100 to spend on himself. Bruce's income tax gets increased by 2.3%, to 25.3%. Bruces disposable income is now $747.
Both individuals now have enough money to live on, and the government is still making the same amount as before |
But that's not fair at all. The point is not that both people still have or don't have enough money to be comfortable with, the point is that one of them is being forced to give an infinitely higher percentage of his money to the armed robbers, I mean government - the poor person is paying 0%, and the rich person is paying 25.7%. That is monumentally unfair, and rather than spreading the tax burden equally, it is punishing the rich for accumulating wealth.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
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quote:
No, I mean you're a lazy **** who thinks the world owes you a living. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of stealing?
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Ok, it seems that the kiddy gloves should be off, and the flamethrower suit on.
Look, you little *****. one BILLION on this planet lives in on less than a dollar per day. There are tens of millions of people around the globe sick of HIV including the US, and when their pathetic worthless governments do try and help them, they're being threatened on the ground of intellectual property, WHILE MILLIONS HUMAN LIVES ARE AT STAKE. people dying from malnutrition, because their countrymen choose to plant coffee instread of food.
Kids all around the planet forced to go to shitty schools, and to be humiliated by their friends because their father, something they had nothing to do with.
HOW DARE YOU CLAIM MORAL SUPERIORITY, while your basic law says "MINE IT'S ALL MINE", how dare you accuse of theft people that are trying to make more people happy.
You and your kind are an abomination of humankind, a twisted caricature of the progress of our great species.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:25
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david, wealth and paying higher taxes is its own reward.
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14-02-2003 00:54
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