13-02-2003 09:46									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Capital gains isn't the same as investment. It turns out to actually be very hard to tax investment itself.

No, I don't think investment should be taxed, rather, speculations should.

	13-02-2003 09:47									#122
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Poor guy: "die rich man!"
Rich guy: "I'll give you some money if you switch sides, and then more money every year to protect me."
Poor guy: "sure"
Thus we get private police forces.

	13-02-2003 09:48									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The poor need the government to protect them from the rich. All the rich need to protect them from the poor is money. Read your friend Marx, he'll explain it.

The rich depend on the government to maintain and accumulate wealth, without which they are poor. The rich need not only their accumulated capital but the continued acceptance of the wage slavery system by the vast majority of the working class. Without them they have no workers to build things nor consumers to sell them to.

	13-02-2003 09:50									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The poor need the government to protect them from the rich. All the rich need to protect them from the poor is money. Read your friend Marx, he'll explain it.

Marx thinks the state apparatus serves the rich in a capitalistic society. Therefore, it will always hinder the development of communism, thus, the class struggle and violent revolutions.

	13-02-2003 09:51									#125
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bezerker, rich people are treated better under the law because they can afford it. who do you think gets their clients with reduced sentences and hung juries? high priced lawyers that only the rich can afford, or the public defender.

unequal representation under the law is only one example of the inequality between the classes. liberals would like to start equalizing the playing field a bit adn one way to do that is to redistribute the wealth of the nation through government programs that benefit the poor.

	13-02-2003 09:51									#126
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If there was no government to protect the poor, there would be a lot more poor. Then the poor would rise up, stage a revolution, and kill the rich.

	13-02-2003 09:51									#127
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Another scenario:

Poor guy: "I quit! I spitin the face of your wage slavery system! Ptuh!"
Rich guy: "Sure, but your still poor. And I can hold out on my large supply of wealth longer than you can on yours."
Poor guy:"Good point. Can I work for you again?"

	13-02-2003 09:51									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Poor guy: "die rich man!" Rich guy: "I'll give you some money if you switch sides, and then more money every year to protect me." Poor guy: "sure" Thus we get private police forces.

Which is not as stable as convincing the poor that they're in charge.

If we didn't have governments then the poor would have revolted in 1850. The constant move towards empowering the poor is an inevitable payment the rich have to make to maintain their position. The future of the worker in the West is through the ballot, in the 3rd world through the bullet. They'll both probably get there at the same time.

	13-02-2003 09:52									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Marx thinks the state apparatus serves the rich in a capitalistic society. Therefore, it will always hinder the development of communism, thus, the class struggle and violent revolutions.

But he believes the purpose of a communist government should be to protect the poor.

	13-02-2003 09:52									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Poor guy: "die rich man!" Rich guy: "I'll give you some money if you switch sides, and then more money every year to protect me." Poor guy: "sure" Thus we get private police forces.

There's only one snag. There are gazillion of poor people and a few rich ones. If the rich gives their money to even half of them, they won't be rich anymore.

	13-02-2003 09:53									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Another scenario: Poor guy: "I quit! I spitin the face of your wage slavery system! Ptuh!" Rich guy: "Sure, but your still poor. And I can hold out on my large supply of wealth longer than you can on yours." Poor guy:"Good point. Can I work for you again?"

Hah. It takes about a second to realise that it's easier to take than to mortgage your life for it.

	13-02-2003 09:53									#132
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Duncan -

quote: The law treats people differently regardless of the Left. That's why we want fairness.

The left has been writing the laws in this country for decades, not libertarians. And this "fairness" you advocate is not about treating people equally, it's about unequal treatment.

quote: Christ, not again with the terms. What is the problem with the terms?

The problem is using bogus terms to hide the truth.

quote: Your form of "equality" is not real equality at all, because the lower income groups have a much less disposable income than the rich.

Who said anything about "equality", I said people should be treated equally under the law. You disagree...
If I am destined to live 60 years, do you think I should be allowed to kill 80 year old people because they have more time than me?

quote: Your theories are the simplest of all. It's just that you can't communicate with people because you have such problems with the terms people use.

True, I don't speak Orwelian.

	13-02-2003 09:54									#133
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To continue the libertarian bashing, why is idea of a prison or justice system justified in a libertarian system? Why is locking people up to insure societal freedom more justified than levying a tax for social welfare to insure societal freedom?

quote: Wow - even Ramo's joining in!

Why not? I support the principle of a graduated income tax. It's just that I think it's levying a far, far too large tax.

	13-02-2003 09:54									#134
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Going it - Or the poor guy could pick up his gun and kill the rich guy and take his wealth.

	13-02-2003 09:54									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The poor need the government to protect them from the rich. All the rich need to protect them from the poor is money. Read your friend Marx, he'll explain it.

That is not true. You missunderstand Marx. In a capitalist society the governments primary function is to protect property.

I'm not saying that you can make government function in the interest of the poor, but as for the cost of protecting property (which is substantial) the rich should pay for that completely.

	13-02-2003 09:55									#136
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It appears that Bush Jr. is trying to repeat his father's mistakes and blow the next election by trying to use his "war" popularity to push through another version of trickle down economics.

	13-02-2003 09:55									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit But he believes the purpose of a communist government should be to protect the poor.

Oh no, the purpose of a communist government is to guard against counter-revolutionary activities funded by enemies both abroad and within.

	13-02-2003 09:57									#138
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The purpose of the government I'd elect is to provide the best standard of living for the most people possible, remembering that 10 000$ in the hands of a wage slave is worth more than 100 000$ in the hands of his oppressor.

	13-02-2003 09:58									#139
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Why don't y'all just block Floyd?

	13-02-2003 09:58									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Duncan - The left has been writing the laws in this country for decades, not libertarians. And this "fairness" you advocate is not about treating people equally, it's about unequal treatment. The problem is using bogus terms to hide the truth.

Exactly my point. It's you libertarians who established the law in USA. That's why we have to fix it. Because its not fair. It just takes a long time, because you screwed it up so bad.

	13-02-2003 09:58									#141
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Because it makes us feel good to beat him down.

	13-02-2003 09:59									#142
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A good economy is the means to the end. THe end is a better standard of living for everyone. The economy is not the end for a few of a means.

	13-02-2003 10:00									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If we didn't have governments then the poor would have revolted in 1850.

The poor DID revolt in 1848. It lasted all of like a day.

	13-02-2003 10:01									#144
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quote: Because it makes us feel good to beat him down.

As long as you are clear on that .

Though I can't imagine how banging your head against walls makes you feel good .

	13-02-2003 10:01									#145
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I was actually referring to that.

And who put the revolts down?

Private armies suppressed the poor in 1399. Only the State had the power to do it in 1848.

	13-02-2003 10:02									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker True, I don't speak Orwelian.

So everyone who uses the terms 'regressive tax' and 'progressive tax' is Orwelian. You just described anyone with a degree in economics. You guys are paranoid.

	13-02-2003 10:04									#147
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Orwelian talk is fun

	13-02-2003 10:04									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Who said anything about "equality", I said people should be treated equally under the law. You disagree...

I believe that you wrote this?

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am stunned that a Libertarian is talking about equality. What did you do to the real Berzerker? You don't listen much to libertarians then.

A Freudian slip perhaps?

What point is it to treat peaople equally under the law if that does not lead to a greater equality? It is nothing more than just a shameful sham to protect the elite.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If I am destined to live 60 years, do you think I should be allowed to kill 80 year old people because they have more time than me?

How would that lead to a greater equality?

	13-02-2003 10:06									#149
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Goinginit,

We might as well consider the government the private police force of the rich. We do get some social benefits, but really its their thugs.

	13-02-2003 10:06									#150
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Democratic and autocratic governments are fundamentally different. A government can only function as a government if it has the mutual consent to govern of the majority of the people (they don't need to agree on its policies, just its right to exist). Otherwise, it's just a way of controling people.

I would doubt that a majority of the population of any 1st-world country denies its government the right to exist.