13-02-2003 10:07									#151
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The governments that put down the 1848 revolutions were autocratic. We're not. Regardless of any perceived bias in the electoral process, the existence of our government is supported by the people.

	13-02-2003 10:10									#152
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quote: Private armies suppressed the poor in 1399.

Any reason for that date in particular?

	13-02-2003 10:10									#153
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And you get a "few social benefits" like a police force, fire department, education, here in Canada free healthcare, pension plan, unemployment insurance, welfare, not to mention fundamental things like security, stability, rights to privacy and life, civil rights, all the while supporting only a very small fraction of the cost it takes to pay for these things.

	13-02-2003 10:13									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The governments that put down the 1848 revolutions were autocratic. We're not. Regardless of any perceived bias in the electoral process, the existence of our government is supported by the people.

And what happens if the government is no longer supported by the people. Then my friend, the police beat some heads. And those will be the heads of the poor.

	13-02-2003 10:14									#155
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And meanwhile what do the rich take away from you? NOTHING! If you didn't want to work for rich people, you wouldn't have to, nobody's forcing you. Since you have freedoms of movement, assembly, speech, and property, all guaranteed by the government, you could move elsewhere to find better work, or even organize a group of people and set up shop by yourselves.

	13-02-2003 10:15									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And you get a "few social benefits" like a police force, fire department, education, here in Canada free healthcare, pension plan, unemployment insurance, welfare, not to mention fundamental things like security, stability, rights to privacy and life, civil rights, all the while supporting only a very small fraction of the cost it takes to pay for these things.

But still the primary goal of the police is to defend property and the existance of the state.

	13-02-2003 10:16									#157
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quote: Because it makes us feel good to beat him down.

Erm, no one beat anyone down. We simply have different views on what "equality" and "fairness" mean. And I still don't agree that everyone paying 23% is anything other than equal. That just doesn't make any sense.

	13-02-2003 10:16									#158
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK And what happens if the government is no longer supported by the people. Then my friend, the police beat some heads. And those will be the heads of the poor.

Then the police quit en masse. They're people too. You get general strikes, rallies, violence, civil disobedience. You get voter nonparticipation and a lack of co-operation with the government. You get, in otherwords, a general opt-out from the governmental and economic system.

If the people find that life is better with governent than without, which they generally do, then they come back and support for the existence of government returns.

	13-02-2003 10:17									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And meanwhile what do the rich take away from you? NOTHING! If you didn't want to work for rich people, you wouldn't have to, nobody's forcing you. Since you have freedoms of movement, assembly, speech, and property, all guaranteed by the government, you could move elsewhere to find better work, or even organize a group of people and set up shop by yourselves.

my point is that the government was created by them and it functions in their interest so they should pay the bulk of taxes.

	13-02-2003 10:19									#160
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Frogger -

quote: You have the idea that classical property law is fair. I disagree with that assumption.

Again, I reject the term "fair", it's a subjective word with little meaning and this thread proves it. I said people should be treated equally under the law.

Duncan -

quote: The rich need the government to protect their property. Why the hell should we pay to protect their property? I don't want to protect their property. I want to take their property.

Do you want the rich to take your property too? How about other people who aren't rich? Yeah, so much for treating people equally, you want to take their property but complain if they take yours.

LoA -

quote: I dont think that taxation is stealing because the government is providing you a service. Of course, it has a monopoly, but you need a government to keep market failure from occuring.

Was the Great Depression a market failure or a failure of government? When your plumber asks to provide you with a service, does he threaten your life if you don't want his service? Nope, your analogy is askew, government is violence and the threat of violence and therefore is only morally allowed to confront others who are initiating violence (or threats thereof) or fraud. Telling the person who will be killed or caged if they don't hand over their money that you aren't really stealing from them works only on those conditioned to accept the theft as "legal". The rest of us know what it is and don't want to be killed, that's why the Mafia got away with stealing from people.

	13-02-2003 10:20									#161
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Wait a second, Duncan. If you say that the government functions in the interest of the rich, and to counteract that the rich should fund the government, then why do you support measures that would make the government function in favor of the poor (such as social welfare, labor laws, things of that nature), without also supporting measures to make the poor pay for those benefits?

	13-02-2003 10:20									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Then the police quit en masse. They're people too. You get general strikes, rallies, violence, civil disobedience. You get voter nonparticipation and a lack of co-operation with the government. You get, in otherwords, a general opt-out from the governmental and economic system. If the people find that life is better with governent than without, which they generally do, then they come back and support for the existence of government returns.

There is something to what you are saying, but the fact is that there are unjust laws and when we stand up against those laws the police beat us. When it gets real bad some of them switch sides, but usually they don't.

	13-02-2003 10:20									#163
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My point is that they should pay the bulk of the taxes because they can afford it, and I'd rather have annoyed rich people than starving poor people.

But if you don't believe that government functions in the interests of the whole population, try to imagine what life would be like without power, water, sewage, police protection, fire protection, education, or any rights or freedoms at all.

The divide doesn't become one between rich and poor, it's between rich and dead.

	13-02-2003 10:22									#164
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No one wants to take a bite at my trolls?

	13-02-2003 10:23									#165
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Statement withdrawn by reason of insanity.

Last edited by Goingonit on 13-02-2003 at 10:32

	13-02-2003 10:23									#166
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Wait a second, Duncan. If you say that the government functions in the interest of the rich, and to counteract that the rich should fund the government, then why do you support measures that would make the government function in favor of the poor (such as social welfare, labor laws, things of that nature), without also supporting measures to make the poor pay for those benefits?

What you are saying doesn't make sense. Why would you tax the poor and give them a benefit too. They need the benefit because the system isn't working for them. Why should we tax them if the system isn't working for them.

And another reason is because the rich also have an interest in the welfare of the poor. It's their work force and their consumers.

	13-02-2003 10:24									#167
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There you go with your inequality. When you're rich, you get benefits because you have to pay for them. When you're poor, they're your perogative.

And the poor also have a stake in the rich, because their goal is to become rich. If you kill all the rich, someone else becomes rich, and then they're gonna get killed.

	13-02-2003 10:25									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit That's because in our society, no matter how strange it might sound, you MUST OBEY ALL LAWS, WHETHER YOU LIKE THEM OR NOT. I don't care whether you think they're just or not, laws are laws and the rule of law is one of the basic principles not just of democracy, but of all society since Hamurabbi's Babylon. If you don't obey them, the system falls apart. If you don't like a law, that's what activism and voting are for.

You don't care much for Ghandi or MLK jr. then I guess. An unjust law should not be obeyed.

	13-02-2003 10:26									#169
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quote: What you are saying doesn't make sense. Why would you tax the poor and give them a benefit too. They need the benefit because the system isn't working for them. Why should we tax them if the system isn't working for them.

No, what YOU are saying doesn't make sense. You are saying that because government functions in favor of the rich, the rich should fund the government.
But then, you turn around and say that government should function in favor of the poor as well - and that's all well and good, yet you make no mention about transferring any part of the tax burden from the rich to the poor.
This makes one think that your argument about who the government functions for is bullshit.

quote: And another reason is because the rich also have an interest in the welfare of the poor. It's their work force and their consumers.

If that's the case, then the rich will take care of them voluntarily, to the extent that the market demands it.

	13-02-2003 10:27									#170
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quote: That's because in our society, no matter how strange it might sound, you MUST OBEY ALL LAWS, WHETHER YOU LIKE THEM OR NOT. I don't care whether you think they're just or not, laws are laws and the rule of law is one of the basic principles not just of democracy, but of all society since Hamurabbi's Babylon. If you don't obey them, the system falls apart. If you don't like a law, that's what activism and voting are for.

Gandhi, MLK, Thoreau, etc. would roll over in their graves... Civil disobedience to an unjust law is never wrong.

	13-02-2003 10:27									#171
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There's a limit to everything. The laws they disobeyed subverted the democratic system, and created a society in which all other methods of opposition were unavailable.

	13-02-2003 10:28									#172
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With FEW EXCEPTIONS, laws must be obeyed.

Only in the cases where laws allowed/required me to kill another person or strip them of basic rights would I actively disobey them.

	13-02-2003 10:28									#173
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Going,

quote: That's because in our society, no matter how strange it might sound, you MUST OBEY ALL LAWS, WHETHER YOU LIKE THEM OR NOT.

So I should obey a law forcing me to fight foreign wars, or forcing me to practice a state religion, or forcing me to discriminate, or forcing me to turn 100% of my income over to the state? Sorry, that's repugnant - I won't obey a law that violates my rights.

	13-02-2003 10:30									#174
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, what YOU are saying doesn't make sense. You are saying that because government functions in favor of the rich, the rich should fund the government. But then, you turn around and say that government should function in favor of the poor as well - and that's all well and good, yet you make no mention about transferring any part of the tax burden from the rich to the poor. This makes one think that your argument about who the government functions for is bullshit.

No, I'm just saying that we need to treat people equal. And I know your libertarian thinking wont allow you to understand that. but just know that I don't consider your system to be equal treatment under the law.

	13-02-2003 10:31									#175
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Sorry, I really misspoke and made my statement way way too severe. What I was trying to say was that disobeying laws willy-nilly (and thus destroying the rule of law) cannot be done.

	13-02-2003 10:32									#176
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Duncan -

quote: So everyone who uses the terms 'regressive tax' and 'progressive tax' is Orwelian. You just described anyone with a degree in economics. You guys are paranoid.

No, only those who think "progress" is treating people unequally.

UR -

quote: I believe that you wrote this?

No, you wrote that. I've been using the term "equally" in the context of how the law should be applied to people, "equality" carries leftist connotations I reject. I should have corrected you then, but I find myself constantly correcting you guys about what I believe and miss a few.

quote: What point is it to treat peaople equally under the law if that does not lead to a greater equality? It is nothing more than just a shameful sham to protect the elite.

Your accusations of deceit and malice aside, the goal of treating people equally is the equal protection of rights, not legalised stealing that violate rights.

quote: How would that lead to a greater equality?

By shortening their lives to more closely match mine, so what's your answer?

	13-02-2003 10:33									#177
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quote: I won't obey a law that violates my rights.

I wonder if you were faced with a prospective of significant jail time or a gun in the back if you'd be singing a different tune.

The State giveth rights and it can taketh them away.

	13-02-2003 10:34									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit With FEW EXCEPTIONS, laws must be obeyed. Only in the cases where laws allowed/required me to kill another person or strip them of basic rights would I actively disobey them.

Well, that's really what makes it appear that the government acts in the interest of everyone. Because when it doesn't everyone just goes ahead and follows the law most of the time.

	13-02-2003 10:35									#179
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No government that's been stripped of the rule of law has ever been beneficial. You can't just say, "This law is wrong, I think I'll disobey it."

Furthermore, you notice civil disobedients willingly accept the prescribed punishment for ther actions? Disobeying the law is a cost/benefit thing. If the law sucks so much you'd rather go to jail, go ahead and break it. But most laws don't. That's why I'd only violate really serious laws. If I'd rather take a prison sentence (or death) than obey it, I'll break it.

	13-02-2003 10:35									#180
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gotta go. c ay guys.