13-02-2003 10:38									#181
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Duncan -

quote: No, I'm just saying that we need to treat people equal. And I know your libertarian thinking wont allow you to understand that. but just know that I don't consider your system to be equal treatment under the law.

Because you don't really believe people should be treated equally under the law. I'll bet you support Affirmative Action too, to stop discrimination, we should discriminate - that's the reality of Affirmative Action.

	13-02-2003 10:43									#182
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quote: No, I'm just saying that we need to treat people equal.

No you aren't. You're saying that everyone should be treated equally but only - or at least primarily - the rich should pay for it. That isn't equal.

	13-02-2003 10:44									#183
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bezerker, his view is a result of his perception of inequality, not his want for inequality.

	13-02-2003 10:45									#184
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david, so should the poor just curl up and die? now THATS libertarianism

	13-02-2003 10:46									#185
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David Floyd -

quote: No, what YOU are saying doesn't make sense. You are saying that because government functions in favor of the rich, the rich should fund the government. But then, you turn around and say that government should function in favor of the poor as well - and that's all well and good, yet you make no mention about transferring any part of the tax burden from the rich to the poor. This makes one think that your argument about who the government functions for is bullshit.

I've noticed that too...

	13-02-2003 10:51									#186
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 david, so should the poor just curl up and die? now THATS libertarianism

Libertarianism, in its purest form, is essentially the idea that government's only responsibility is to protect the rights of all members of society.

Basically, libertarians believe that everyone has the right to life, liberty, and protection of property and the freedom to do anything that doesn't abridge those three. If you can't make money without anyone else's help, then it's your own damn fault.

	13-02-2003 10:51									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Socialism: shared wealth and freedom

That's funny!

	13-02-2003 10:54									#188
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goingonit, obviously libertarians are robots without human emotion.

	13-02-2003 10:55									#189
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no you're thinking of Objectivists.

Libertarians can and do support social programs, they just think that those are up to individuals and charitable groups rather than government.

	13-02-2003 10:59									#190
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Personally, I believe that protection of rights, including right to property, is government's primary obligation, but that some additional responsibilities of government are necessary to embetter society for all.

	13-02-2003 11:00									#191
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individuals as a whole arent charitable because of the idea that if you need help its because you somehow ****ed yourself over. libertarianism is rampant through society already

	13-02-2003 11:08									#192
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I don't know about you, but I give charity, as does almost everyone I know. My feeling is that even if you ****ed yourself over, or if you weren't born smart or with aptitude for any jobs, you still deserve some basic standard of living. But being rich isn't a right.

Also the vast vast majority of the population is religious, and almost all religions are in favour of charity.

	13-02-2003 11:15									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Any reason for that date in particular?

I was thinking of 1381.

	13-02-2003 11:16									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's funny!

Almost as funny as thinking that capitalism benefits most people.

	13-02-2003 11:17									#195
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being rich isnt a right, definitely, but there is a quality of life that the government should try to maintain for the people. otherwise whats the point of government?

	13-02-2003 11:25									#196
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 individuals as a whole arent charitable because of the idea that if you need help its because you somehow ****ed yourself over.

That's pure unadulterated crap.

	13-02-2003 11:33									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Where did I mention "fairness"? That's a leftist term used to treat people differently under the law.

Actually "fairness" is a universal term meaning "tax anybody else but me!"

	13-02-2003 11:43									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Almost as funny as thinking that capitalism benefits most people.

Shall we talk about the rising tide and boats again?

	13-02-2003 11:44									#199
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?

	13-02-2003 11:51									#200
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dinodoc, why do people not give to homeless people on the street? people arent inherently giving unless is benefits them, whether that be financial or emotional or spiritual. People dont see a return in helping those who are thought to be without hope.

	13-02-2003 11:55									#201
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 dinodoc, why do people not give to homeless people on the street?

Because they'd rather give to where it will do the most good, ie shelters, soup kitchens, etc.

edit: C Beast!

	13-02-2003 12:21									#202
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now lets kick it up a notch, how do people give to the working poor? id love to see a study in conservative areas vs liberal areas in terms of amount of charity given to the working poor.

but i am happy that SF passed the care not cash inniative providing care, instead of 300 buck general assitance checks.

	13-02-2003 14:20									#203
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quote: Actually "fairness" is a universal term meaning "tax anybody else but me!"

Hehe, tax that guy behind the tree.

	13-02-2003 14:45									#204
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Mine was suppose to trickle down here in 1980 I think. I never got it.

Yes you did. Remember that stain in your pants from 1982?

	13-02-2003 14:48									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger See loinie's post. Charge 50% tax on furs and 0% tax on groceries

Hey, I can't afford synthetics, leave my fur affordable and warm! And if you've seen a low income neighborhood in the U.S. I think you'd have to come to the conclusion that cheaper groceries are not what these people need. Perhaps mandatory excercise.

	13-02-2003 14:54									#206
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Up here there's no tax on groceries, but full tax on soft drinks.

	13-02-2003 15:00									#207
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 individuals as a whole arent charitable because of the idea that if you need help its because you somehow ****ed yourself over. libertarianism is rampant through society already

Hey, I'm a libertarian who gives a lot of my money and time to help people. Aside from the mandatory funding for government bureaucrats and vote buying by the major parties, I help poor people in my community by feeding them, giving them a place to stay when the weather is cold, and a lot of free counseling, which believe it or not they actually come over to my house for (ie, they actually want it).

These experiences have shown me that we lose an immense amount by allowing government to create entitlements in our name with our money. The major problem with that is that no one owns the process. Not the bureaucrats who administer it, not the taxpayers who pay for it, and not the needy who see anything given to them by bureaucrats as something that they are owed, and have no incentive to move from a burden on society to a benefactor themselves.

Getting personally involved conversely changes these dynamics for the better. Poor people should be at least as humble as those who work to support them. People who are well off, or doing fine should not let their consciences doze lazily while assuming that because they pay taxes they've done their share to make the world a better place.

	13-02-2003 15:12									#208
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Sikander, that doesn't count. Charity and compassion can only be shown by wearing a smile as liberals steal your money to pay other liberals to steal the shirt off your back to clothe a poor liberal.

	13-02-2003 17:02									#209
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Liberals ARE the working poor.

In any survey of charity, you'll find the rich give a larger percentage of income as a whole because they have more disposable income.

I'm sick and tired of everybody badmouthing the rich about charity. Where would we be without Carnegies? Without Bill Gateses?

	13-02-2003 17:06									#210
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Also, as for groceries: prices are being artificially inflated by farms subsidies to a ridiculous extent.