14-02-2004 05:12									#241
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I disagree on the naval screen. I think they should form their own part of the naval screen (if they can afford it; if not, we can go ahead and do it for them). Because their turn comes right before ours, a naval screen of ours would give them one less turn's warning of possible invasion & preparation for such.

I agree on the other points; have Vox focus on research instead of land units, and railroad their portion of the continent to us ASAP so that we can protect them with our own units. Heck, we have enough units we could probably prevent any landings on Legos Minor if the proper RRs were in place.

	19-02-2004 17:25									#242
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An idea has crossed my mind today... I was pondering about what to do about the Voxian research once they finish Democracy. The only solution I was able to think of previously was halting their research & stockpiling gold until we finish Magnetism & ToG... and then continuing with an industrial tech.

But here is a new idea: what about asking them to do Military Tradition for us? GoW does not seem to be very eager to trade it to us, as they did not get back to me after the chat last week. I will ask MZ again today, if he is there... but if GoW keeps stalling (and that would only confirm they are aligning themselves against us), I think we could play their game, seemingly doing nothing, but having Voxes research the tech for us while we zoom ahead towards the end of the era. We would save the 4 turns needed to research MT - that's not negligible. Someone is ahead of us tech-wise (since when we were starting Physics, 2 other teams already knew it) and we have some catching up to do.

There is a risk involved, but it's not all that high, as if, at any time, something went terribly wrong, we could do MT on our own in mere 4 turns (we can research 4t techs easily at 40%-50% science now, making 200-300gpt at the same time). 4 turns would be hardly enough to allow invaders to sail over, land, and overrun our defenses.

OTOH, if things go as they are supposed, we would do Magentism & ToG, leaving medieval times, while Voxes use their fine research engine to do MT for us in ~10t (that's what I would assume). Moreover, we could keep building 2t knights as long as we'd wish, since Voxes would deliver MT exactly when we'd ask for it (which I would never risk with GoW).

How does this sound to you?

	19-02-2004 17:43									#243
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BTW, Kloreep has a good point about the naval screen - Voxes need to have their own screen in "their" part of the ocean - otherwise they get the warning essentially one turn later.

I'd also agree we should try to make them build only or mostly defenders (but a good number of them) and arty, relying on our attackers to help them against invasions. However, if they do not feel 100% happy about this, I would not insist very strictly. We would only show distrust - with no good reason. IF they ever decide to backstab us (not that I would ever believe that), they will do it anyway - we have no means to check what kind of units they have, unless we plant a spy with them. And that's not going to happen any time soon.

So, here is a quick summary of what I would suggest we ask from Voxes:

1) extend our own naval screens with their vessels so that it covers the oceans completely both in the West & in the East
2) focus on building their own defenders and artillery, leaving attackers to us
3) after finishing Democracy, do the Military Tradition for us
4) keep building their infra with an emphasis on research

Objections? Any other ideas?

	19-02-2004 18:41									#244
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quote: Any other ideas?

Yes Help them with money to do an 8 turn Military Tradition research. (to finance their deficit)

	19-02-2004 20:36									#245
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We really need to press GoW on this issue. If they outright refuse this trade, we have no choice other than to assume they are aligning against us. If that's the case, definately work on the relation with ND, and I might say even go so far as to contact GS and try to open relations with them again.

	19-02-2004 20:53									#246
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As for "pressing" GoW... I will bug MZ today evening again. If he keeps evading or offers poor terms, it will be a message clear enough. Should that happen, we need to figure out who they are aligned with now - as I am sure they would not go against us on their own (my bet would be GS).

	20-03-2004 12:23									#247
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I quickly emailed Vox last night, after suddenly realizing we did not really need any tech except Steam Power:

quote: Hi, Jared! Hi, Bruce! Just a quick note - unless you get Steam Power, do NOT send your free industrial tech to us. We do not really need rifles yet (actually, we strongly prefer doing a couple more muskets first, as we have several 30S cities quite fit for 2t muskets, while we have no 40S city able to build 2t rifles), nor we need Medicine. No need to make it any cheaper for those that may (be) research(ing) them. GoW is doing Medicine ATM, that we know for sure - let them spend as much as possible. The only exception would be Steam Power - that is a crucial tech for us, which we need urgently. Besides, GS already have it, and GoW will get it from GS (in exchange for Medicine, if I deciphered it correctly from my chit-chat with Master Zen), so no big deal making it cheaper. If it is Steam Power, send it immediately, please. My personal suggestions: If you get Nationalism, go for Communism (Police Stations). If you get Medicine, go for Sanitation (Hospitals). If you get Steam Power, go for Nationalism (Rifles). This should make it very likely that you are first to research whatever you decide to research. Also - think hard about if you can meaningfully use some gold. We might be able to help, if it really helps things. Our Golden Ages truly are "golden"... Cheers, Radek aka vondrack

And here is Beta's two-part answer:

quote: Hi Radek. Understood regarding the free tech and what you would like to see happen. As to gold - funding the research deficit would be the first use. The second would be upgrades on our units - catapults - now in the production stream - to cannon - and the existing spears and pikes to rifles. This follows your homeland defence suggestion. The third would be rushing improvements - most likely universities. At last count - Rhoth calculated we were at 184 beakers at 100% science, with a 45gpt loss. There are more universities and population coming on stream - so this should get better. Although its not bad for a little rock no bigger than Newfoundland, which is affectionately known as The Rock here in Canada. Btw - fabulous province - and the first acknowledged site of Europeans landing in North America - the viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows - a UNESCO heritage site. But I DO digress. Back to Vox - my home near and dear. Rhoth can probably provide more precise timing regarding research - I have been a bit busy this week - and have not been attentive as I should have been. Trust all is well. Cheers ...Bruce.

quote: Hi Radek - for specifics here is Rhoth's post in our forum in response to your note below. It gives better details on the cash we would need and when: quote: Hopefully we will receive steam power, but if we do get medicine or nationalism then we won't send it until they are ready for it. Regarding the gold, if they are still willing to finance our deficit then we will need roughly 50 gold per turn from them, but that will go up to around 60 in the next few turns. That will allow us to run 100% research, otherwise we have to keep it dialed down a bit. Beta can you talk with Vondrack and see if they are still willing to send us 50+ gold per turn? Then we can set that up so they can give it to us starting next turn and we can go 100% research. If they can't send that much then we can of course dial our research down a to 90% or 80% so that we don't have a big deficit. Let us know. Take care my friend. ...Bruce. (aka Beta of Vox.)

Now, I'd like to hear your opinions... the fact is we are generating so much cash that we cannot really use all of it in a reasonable way (btw, 500g should be coming in from ND this turn). Even after we boost our research, we will still generate a healthy surplus. We can certainly keep it in our coffers, but that's as if you kept your real world savings under your pillow - you usually prefer doing some investments.

Now, my thoughts/comments:

With the techs Voxes will be able to research costing ~2400 beakers, the research time difference would be like 5 turns, for the cost of 600-800g, as 2400B/184bpt=13t, 2400B/139bpt=18t, and 13t*(50-60)gpt=650-780g. Honestly, I do not see this as a no brainer... it would most probably depend on what kind of tech Voxes would research. I would be ready to fund a fast Sanitation research (as we will soon be ready to grow our best cities past pop 12, which we need the hospitals for), but would see no need to hurry with Nationalism or Communism.

As for upgrades... I would say these can wait for now. I'd tell Voxes to keep their upgradable units within the reach of barracked cities, so that if something goes wrong, they can upgrade immediately, and keep the necessary funds ourselves, but not spend them yet. I would like us to have even higher gold reserves to use them for Voxian upgrades.

As for the last possibility mentioned (rushes)... I am going to ask for details. Rushing a university or two, making the city or cities free to, say, build defenders or artillery while generating as many beakers as possible might be a good thing...

	21-03-2004 20:53									#248
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This is what Rhothaerill added to the 720AD save:

quote: You're up. We did indeed receive Nationalism as our free tech. Whenever you want it just say so. We are going full bore toward research of communism and should have it in 16 turns. Our current deficit is 41 gold after we picked up a few gpt from a trade deal. But that will go up to around a deficit of 50gpt in about 3 turns. If you are able to send us that much each turn then it would certainly be helpful. If not we will dial the research slider back down.

So, Nationalism it is. In a way, it's good for us - as this pretty much rules out the possibility of others trying to attack our muskets with their cavalry. We can have all or almost all our defenders upgraded to riflemen in 2-3 turns. Cavalry against riflemen backed up by cannons and swarms of counter-cavalry is suicidal...

Now, as for Communism... although the police stations are dandy, we do not really need them - and we shall not really need them at least until we finish building some factories. Surprisingly (for me, at least), none of our cities is really badly corrupt - the courthouses can handle everything just fine. So, I do not see getting Communism ASAP as a must, especially not for 50gpt... do you agree we should tell Voxes to fall back a bit, not to lose cash (=need our funds)?

OTOH, I would probably support gifting them up to 500g they could use to set at least one of their cities up so it would have all the comm/sci improvements and would be free to focus on their defensive military.

I am also going to suggest Vox strike a deal with ND on Nationalism. ND is apparently very keen on acquiring it, to be able to build/upgrade rifles, and I believe the time is ripe for Voxes striking a long-term tech-for-lux deal with ND. I would leave any other deals up to them, just making sure they know we're going the Industrialization route ourselves.

As for Nationalism and us - I suggest we keep building muskets during our GA (we have several cities perfectly suited for this kind of production - at 20/30spt), getting Nationalism and upgrading only after we leave our GA (should coincide with the RR backbone being quickly finished).

Your thoughts?

	22-03-2004 02:25									#249
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I agree that Communism is not a big priority. Let's build up a small reserve, and possibly fund the development of one of their cities like you suggest, and then fund Communism research if we still have money we can't spend. But 4-turning our choice techs is the most important thing right now.

On Nationalism: Rifles are powerful. I suggest Vox be careful and seal all their deals before trading it to anyone so that no one is left out.

	22-03-2004 10:04									#250
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Agree, that we are in no hurry for Communism.

As for helping Vox with upgrades, with all our gold, we should share it with our friends. Giving Vox up to 500g (or even a bit more) would not hurt our plans.

Vox can do what they like with Nationalism.

	23-03-2004 14:44									#251
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Vox emailed with the following message:

quote: Hi, guys! We have briefly discussed the situation in our forum an it seems we would prefer you researching Communism at less than 100%, not losing money. Unlike, say, Medicine or Sanitation, we believe the benefits of Communism (i.e. Police Stations) are not needed that urgently at the moment... we/you better save the 50gpt. OTOH... we would be happy to assist you with some gold, if you are able to use it reasonably. We were thinking of helping one or two of your cities to finish (through shortrushing) all or most of the comm and sci improvements (library, university, marketplace, bank, perhaps temple & aqueduct, too), so that they'd be able to focus on building arty and/or defenders, while bringing the maximum commercial benefit. Would ~500g help in this regard? Let us know. We would like to see you arranging the deals for Nationalism with everybody... we know that ND is extremely keen on acquiring the tech because of security reasons (we would suggest a looooong luxury deal with them - like 1 luxury for 40 or, even better, 60 turns; it would cost them "nothing", so they should be happy to take it, while you'd be able to grow your cities a bit more without running into happiness problem). Trading Nationalism with GoW for Medicine would be cool, too - if you can make them add 20t of wines to the deal, even better (it's amazing how much waste one can save by operating cities in WLTKD). And the most important thing would be to trade Nationalism for Electricity with GS - as we would prefer not researching Electricity ourselves, trading for it with GS (most probably for Industrialization). It would be worth arranging all deals in advance, so that everybody (but us, perhaps) gets the tech at the same time. Rifles are powerful and providing only some teams with them might make them "ponder" about things... We will keep building muskets for few more turns and ask you for Nationalism only after our GA end. We plan to quickly finish Steam Power now, continuing with Industrialization and probably Corporation then - and further down that branch, perhaps with a short detour for Replaceable Parts. One last thing... would you be able to send us your World Map this turn? Just wanna improve our ocean charts a bit. Thanks. Take care, Radek aka vondrack on behalf of Legoland

	23-03-2004 23:32									#252
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Looks good.

	29-03-2004 19:54									#253
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Sorry for not being up-to-date (I could barely access the internet last week), but I don't understand why the Voxians aren't running for electricity. With their rocky areas, electricity is absolutely needed if they want to increase their pop.

I don't know if our relationship with the Voxians is trusting enough, but I think we should research electricity for them once Industrialization is complete. For us, electricity is a nice treat (we'll have a population boom in southern Legos), but for them, it is really vital to become significant again.

Unless we fear they betray us at short term, it may be a good idea to give them a heads up with electricity, instead of letting them wait for too long. This will benefit us, at least until the world decides to unite against us.

	29-03-2004 22:10									#254
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I/We believe we will be able to trade Industrialization for Electricity (and gold, probably) with Gathering Storm, Spiffor (they're doing it right now, if not already knowing it - they're going after ToE & Hoover). If they're difficult and refuse to trade, Vox do it as their next tech.

Doing the same tech as GS do/did would unnecessarily delay us in our race through the middle part of the tech tree. GS will get ToE, means two very expensive techs for free for them - we better have something to offer in exchange.

We do not really need Electricity all that much (our pop and economy is vastly superior to the rest of the world anyway) and even if we want Vox to become as strong as possible (they are our closest allies), I do not think researching Electricity because of them is THE reason.

	29-03-2004 22:17									#255
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Oh OK. Then, please disregard my above post

	18-04-2004 23:03									#256
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From the save e-mail.

quote: You're up. We have almost completed a deal with Roleplay to send them nationalism for cash, however they have requested our world map as well. Part of the New Voice treaty was that we cannot send our world map to anyone without the prior approval of Lego so I need to ask whether we have your approval or not. I attached a screenshot of what we do know of your area so that you know what we'd be giving them. Thanks, Rhoth

If they're okay with it, I don't see any reason we wouldn't be. They don't see more than an embassy and some coast scouting reveals.

	19-04-2004 01:27									#257
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I think they're knowledge of our geography is common anyway, so I don't see anything wrong either. Chances are, everybody knows at least that much from us. Unless they did some coast-scouting since the New Vox Treaty.

If they haven't scouted our shores since this time, it is all right for them to give nationalism to RP. It's not like RP can threaten us, and everything is good if it can help the Voxians finishing their buildup phase

	19-04-2004 05:49									#258
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Actually, I think most of the civs see even more than that of us anyway. After the ND scout incursion, I'm pretty sure that GS, ND, and GoW can all see Karina.

	19-04-2004 07:07									#259
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I don't think they can see Karina's tile, but I think they do see enough of the tiles around it to know a city's there.

	19-04-2004 10:01									#260
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Thanks for posting this, Kloreep (I was AFK yesterday evening and went straight to bed after coming home).

I agree with everybody - there is no harm in letting Voxes trade their WM.

	21-04-2004 21:40									#261
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I asked Rhothaerill for an update on their economy. Here it is:

quote: Hi Vondrack, Per your request... We are currently researching communism at 50% science with a +6gpt surplus. We will receive it in 13 turns. At 0% research we currently gain 85gpt, though that will rise in a few more turns when some of the lesser cities complete marketplaces. At 100% research we have 213 beakers per turn with a loss of -67gpt and it speeds up research to 7 more turns. By the way, we're also starting work on our navy now. About 10-15 turns and we'll have several warboats in the water. Regards, Rhoth

	13-05-2004 12:35									#262
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I have exchanged few emails with Vox. Here they are:

quote: Hi, guys! quote: You're up. Thanks for Replaceable Parts. And I must really be out of it. I had thought last turn that the dyes you guys were sending had been switched to a standing order but they disappeared this turn. Would it be possible for you to send them again? Thanks. The ingame luxury trade mechanism is weird. If you watch the F4 trading screen, you can see them going down to "[1] dyes", then just "dyes" on the following turn - and then simply disappear. I did my best to send you the dyes prior to the previous gift deal expiring, but you apparently had no chance to accept them. I am 100% sure I sent Replaceable Parts AND DYES in one package (terminated the current dye supplies in order to be able to add them to the deal) - it seems you got only the tech, but not the dyes. Sigh. The better I know it, the more often this game is driving me crazy. Just btw... there is a partial workaround for the luxury "1t gap" problem. Let's say the dyes expire after you end your 900AD turn and we renew them immediately in 900AD (which is what happened). Now, when you get your 910AD save (and accept the dyes from us), use the first 'build complete' pop-up to go into the city screen and use the arrows to scroll through all your cities after the one that has just finished something. For each city, take a worker off any tile and immediately put it back there - it forces the game to recalculate the happiness, actually putting the renewed luxury into effect (which would not be the case if you did not use this trick). Prevents riots, prevents losing WLTKDs... it's legal now (after the teams approved using the F1 tricks in general), though very weird. :| And last but definitely not least - guys, would you be able to use some extra workers or labourers? We are getting into troubles with our research - we cannot compete with the GoW+GS tandem. We already miss Sanitation (which ND+GoW+GS have), Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, and Electronics (which GS has), and we are likely to start losing even in the middle tech tree branch soon. If you were able to speed up your research to some 200+ bpt, it would really help, since you would be able to do the techs others have researched, but refused to trade to us at a fair price. E.g., Sanitation is now at about 1500 beakers, which could be like 7t. We are not really having that much spare cash now, but we would be easily able to send some extra workers to you - to be used to improve your terrain, or (more importantly) to be joined to your cities to boost your commerce. Are your cities ready for extra population? Would it be okay to send you a couple of new citizens? If yes, how many? Let us know. Best regards, Radek aka vondrack

Rhothaerill's response:

quote: Hi Radek, That must have been my mix-up with the trading. I thought the way it worked was it just said dyes (1) and then the next turn it was gone (like SP games). When it just said dyes with no number I assumed you had just had it continue indefinitely. Oh well, live and learn. And yes, the only thing that appeared in the FAM box was the tech not the dyes. Maybe Civ4 PBEM/MP tech trading will be more intuitive...I hope. Regarding the workers, I haven't talked with my team yet, but I think we'd be interested. I currently have a plan in the works to get all of our cities up their max. tile production. It will take a little while longer to get it finished up, though replaceable parts will help speed that up a bit. Now that we have electricity and railroads our cities will start growing again. Some of the cities won't grow too well though, so adding some workers to them would certainly help. I was intending to get all our tiles fixed up and then start adding the workers to the cities that need them, but if you need us to research faster then we can work on that. I'm trying to set up our growth cycle for several cities to grow to size 7 at the same time so we don't waste any of the luxury deals we've worked out with other teams. Depending on the amount of workers you send we could add them to Resurrection, Eternity and Panama Vox to get them closer to size 6 in preparation for growth beyond, as well as giving us the extra commerce points. So however many workers you think you can spare for joining to our cities, we can use them. Regarding our research, we are about 8 turns more to communism (though that would speed up with more commerce points) and after that we can get sanitation for you if you need it. We can't really speed that number up with the slider without going into negative gpt numbers. On the military front, our first ironclad will be hitting the waters soon, with a few more to follow. Now that we have replaceable parts we will no longer need saltpeter since we can build artillery instead of cannons. We're also slowly trying to build up some gold for upgrades of our units using the ND communism deal. Our railroad network is finally up and running around all our cities (not just through them) so that in the event we are attacked you would be able to get around to our entire island with cav's etc. Which leads to one further thing...what would you say to one or the other of us establishing an embassy with the other? I've currently been holding around 70gold as our lowest point. It would cost us about 66 gold or so to establish the embassy to be able to request a right of passage agreement for you to use our rail network in the event that we are attacked. If we go ahead and establish the embassy now then I don't have to think about keeping gold for that particular reserve. Thanks again, Rhoth

And my final response:

quote: Hi, Jared! quote: Regarding the workers, I haven't talked with my team yet, but I think we'd be interested. [...snip...] So however many workers you think you can spare for joining to our cities, we can use them. OK, I will present the plan to my team and once approved, send workers at will. quote: Regarding our research, we are about 8 turns more to communism (though that would speed up with more commerce points) and after that we can get sanitation for you if you need it. We can't really speed that number up with the slider without going into negative gpt numbers. Understood. Getting communism fast is not a priority - Sanitation would be (much) more important. But at least for a couple more turns, we'd prefer you not losing money on research, as we are not generating any extra gold to fund your deficit. We do have some cash reserve, but that should remain just that - a reserve. quote: Our railroad network is finally up and running around all our cities (not just through them) so that in the event we are attacked you would be able to get around to our entire island with cav's etc. Which leads to one further thing...what would you say to one or the other of us establishing an embassy with the other? I've currently been holding around 70gold as our lowest point. It would cost us about 66 gold or so to establish the embassy to be able to request a right of passage agreement for you to use our rail network in the event that we are attacked. If we go ahead and establish the embassy now then I don't have to think about keeping gold for that particular reserve. Good news about the roads/railroads in place. And a very good point about the embassy. I will bring that up in the forum. Best regards, Radek

So, gentlemen, we've got two issues to discuss.

1) establishing an embassy with Vox
I would simply build the embassy ourselves. It's not that we wouldn't have the money. It certainly is a much smaller deal to spend 60-70g out of 2000g than it is to spend 60-70 out of 200g. We should be generous here - it's OUR safety that is being helped here, too.

2) gifting workers to Vox
We currently have 42 workers, adding at least 1 new worker every other turn (from Invoice). I think it's getting out of hand a bit - I mean, it's cool to be able to improve so many tiles every turn, but we pay 42gpt for our worker force... besides, we are getting close to a point where most of our worked tiles will be fully developed. I would think that the optimum number for the moment would be ~30 workers on Legos + whatever we use to do terrain improvements for ND on Bob. Anything over this number can be transferred over to Vox.

I am not saying we should gift them all the excess workers at once, but I'd really consider gifting ~10 workers over the next ~10t.

What do you think about the idea? Keep in mind that with Darekill becoming the new leader of ND (see the ND embassy thread in the public forum for the news), our hopes of getting really useful support from ND are diminishing - we should face the facts: Vox is going to be our only true ally when it comes to winning the game... their ability to research techs fast enough for us will most likely be crucial. Right now, we would more than need them to do Sanitation for us, and then go through the Hoover branch - Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, Electronics... while we struggle to keep pace with GoW & GS in the middle branch of the tech tree.

Without the Hoover branch techs coming from somewhere, we will be beaten to tanks... and I would rather avoid that.

	13-05-2004 19:35									#263
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I would support giving about 10 workers to Vox. Helps both of us, really. Having us open the Embassy also sounds like a good course of action, as we can afford the extra cost a little more than they can

Regarding ND, well, we'll see how the chat goes today. Maybe Darekill will lead them in a more anti-GoW stance...

	14-05-2004 00:36									#264
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Definitely help Vox out.

	14-05-2004 14:37									#265
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Help Vox

	14-05-2004 17:29									#266
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Yep, give Vox all our workers past 30 once we are done with improving our tiles

And it is good to have Vox research Sanitation. We will need these hospitals to resist the Triad's onslaught. +shields, +money, +research, +defense. This is vital, now that a unified block of three powers exists.

I don't think we should be overly concerned by tanks. Tanks have 2 moves, which makes it very difficult (if not impossible) for a tank army to attack several cities in one turn. And with enough artilleries + cavalries, we can destroy these enemy tanks quite easily. Especially since our country will soone be entirely railroaded.

	27-06-2004 03:53									#267
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Received some new information from Rhothaerill, in response to my email informing Vox about our research-related decisions. To make it easier to understand, I'm including my email first:

quote: Hi Jared, quote: Okay, we'll go for espionage at 100%. Great, thanks - we have internally agreed on going for Scientific Method in 4t ourselves now (after finishing Combustion), saving cash and letting others research Mass Production and Flight first, lowering their costs for us - the leading researcher is slower than us... we've caught up by 2t on them on Combustion alone, I think. We'd be done too fast with Mass Production and would only lower the cost... quote: As to the amount of gold it would take to upgrade all of our forces I don't have the numbers with me, but it's basically 120 gold per upgrade for each one of them. We have about 18-20 units to upgrade so it's in the neighborhood of 2400 gold for all of them. I'm currently trying to peddle communism to the last two teams that don't have it (GoW and RP) for some gold or techs so we'll see how that goes. This sounds doable. How fast would you like to upgrade? I think we should be able to send you 100gpt to keep you researching at 100% plus 120gpt to let you upgrade one unit per turn. This might improve soon - I am not exactly sure how much we gain by growing our cities past pop 12, which is going to happen very soon. Would that be acceptable? We shall, of course, do our best to deliver the upgrade gold faster to you, but I am trying to be reasonable here... 220gpt is what we can afford at this very moment and at least for the next 5 turns. Also, we shall need some gold for our own upgrades. Our likely research path from here is going to be Scientific method - Mass Production. Then Atomic Theory, Electronics, Motorized Transport, Flight, and Radio (Flight looks like a very good one for you, after you finish Espionage... it's a mandatory, yet basically dead-end tech...). GoW/GS/ND tech-embargo us, so we have to research everything ourselves, thus being able to deliver all techs you might need to proceed to the modern era. If you trade your techs to others, you might prefer gold over techs or pick optional techs. Have a nice weekend, Radek

An now Rhothaerill's response:

quote: Hi Radek I finally had a chance to get to Civ today. Our current science output at 100% is 263 beakers per turn. That will obviously start rising dramatically in a few turns though as our cities grow to size 7, and then a few turns after we'll be joining about 20+ workers to the various cities. Regarding unit upgrades it will cost us 2140 gold to upgrade all our laggardly units to current standards. Regarding how fast we want to upgrade, that is more dependent on your team if you're going to subsidize our upgrades. I want to get the remaining catapults upgraded first, then the pikes. The pikes aren't quite as important as the catapults in my opinion. Researching flight after espionage is fine with us. Espionage shouldn't take us all that long to research so we'll have flight ready for you before you need it to advance to the next age...plus we get that nice free tech in the next age too. :-) Thanks Jared (Rhoth)

So, there we are. 263bpt at 100% sounds promising (it's almost 1/3 of our current research output at 70%) - should mean an 8t Espionage research. And 20 workers joined to Voxian cities means -20gpt on upkeep and quite a boost to their commerce/research. I believe we could easily see them doing up to 350bpt. And that, gentlemen, is enough to do Flight in 12-13 turns, even if the cost does not drop (-1t for every team getting it before Vox).

	24-07-2004 15:22									#268
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I have mentioned this idea in the turn thread, but would like to repeat it here, so it better stands out...

What about allowing Voxes to do whatever they wish and/or are able to with the techs we gift them. I mean - if they are able to sell them to anyone for anything even remotely useful, then by all means... let them do so!

We are completely out of the trading loop, as we constantly research stuff already discovered by others - means we almost never have even a theoretical shot at selling a tech to GoW or GS, which are ahead of us tech-wise. ND will not trade because of strategic implications - and, IMHO, also out of fear they'd be attacked if cooperating with us to a larger extent than just a simple, single lux-for-lux deal.

So, here is my idea: let's tell Voxes to try their luck with trading whatever tech they receive from us, unless specifically told otherwise. Let them keep whatever they can get for it, be it gold, luxuries, workers... anything.

I would also ask them to NOT trade Espionage to other teams, for obvious reasons.

	25-07-2004 15:56									#269
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Yes, sounds good

	26-07-2004 05:49									#270
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Makes perfect sense.