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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Yes, Tibi is hitting the nail on the head.
GS really hoped to draw us into the conflict through our Vox protection pledge (it was mentioned in Velocyrix' message) and I, too, believe it's a very reliable evidence of that they know nothing about what's going on.
I agree that a marvellous deception like this would quite likely make GS members feel screwed BIG time. Probably to the extent of withdrawing from the game completely.
What we should decide here is:
Shall we request that Vox NOT pursue this idea and TURN DOWN the proposal of GS, whatever the basis of their "cooperation" would be?
Or shall we let them do whatever they feel is fine, as long as it does not interfere with our own plans - that is, as long as they do no real harm to us, neither GoW, nor ND?
Beside GS feeling over-betrayed, there is one more counter-aspect to keep in mind... Voxes would still like to have some thrill with PtWDG. Strictly limiting them to building harbours and libraries is not exactly the way to make the rest of the game fun for them (and yes, I do know that they would be dead by now, if we saved them not... but still...).
I am starting to think the best course of action for Vox right now would be keep all options open - not turning the proposal flatly down, but "negotiating some"... not saying 'yes', not saying 'no', simply trying to find out what exactly they could make out of it. Since... what if GoW was cool with SELLING them Baby Bob?
Once again, I believe thet the crucial question here is:
Do we feel so strongly about the whole issue that we request Vox TURN DOWN the proposal of GS, NOT pursuing it any further? Or do we grant them some freedom regarding the matter?
I myself am quite undecided yet, still waging pros and cons - perhaps this might be a good issue to vote on...?
Last edited by vondrack on 04-09-2003 at 15:51
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Dear Lego Leaders,
The people of Vox have a couple of inquiries and points for discussion.
To start with, I have been asked to inquire about obtaining banking prior to us completing printing press. This will allow us to start researching democracy immediately on a gpt basis.
Also - do you have astronomy - and can we trade for it, buy it, or beg for it? We would promise not to trade it.
The reason regarding the latter is that our galley survey has revealed the potential of an island to our NW. Utilizing caravels we could possibly expand our small geographic area to further enhance our research capabilities.We could risk an empty galley run to discover the island - but we cannot possibly risk a settler as well.
And finally, on the same theme of geographic expansion, I have been asked to inquire about the squiggle of land south of Memory and SeaBiscuit. (the isthmus that ends in a "T", with a mountain on its north end.) Can we negotiate for this parcel of land for settlement. Our city would go on the middle hill tile. We would never station any troops in the city, unless with your approval in crisis situations. We would allow, even encourage, you to sation a unit on the mountain to keep an eye on things. We would ensure its expansion never goes beyond using the two or three plains tiles to the SW. And we would work with you to bring irrigation up from the south.
Your thoughts or ideas or responses on these matters would be appreciated. We, Rhoth and I, are also available to chat about these, or any other matters, at your convenience.
Regards ...Beta, on behalf of Vox C.
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Received today from Beta. I'm curious what their evidence is for an island... the same sea stretch we saw? Nothing there, if that's what it was...
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Got the same PM from Beta, too.
I believe they can also see that solitary sea tile to their NW and hope there could be "something" beyond. Alas, as we already know, there is nothing but ocean there. Which, however, does not mean we should not gift them Astronomy.
As for Banking - sure thing, that's what we have been planning anyway.
As for The Hammer site - no way, that site is too strategically important for us to give it to Vox.  Port Hammer there will be the logistic base for the Northern Fleet, guarding the entrance into the Bay of Panama.
To be honest, I'm rather surprised to see these points raised through a PM... since I had a chat with Beta few days ago. Not really a PtWDG-only chat, much private, non-PtWDG and even non-poly/non-civ stuff discussed, but we did discuss a couple of points about Vox and Lego. Here is the summary:
- I briefed Beta on the war situation and what role we played in getting there
- I told Beta about some of our plans for future: getting closer to GS once the war is over, hoping for a "non-Bob" block
- Beta expressed concerns about GoW & ND being actually "one civ", stronger than Lego (I do not think this is the case - wait for my report on yesterday's alliance chat)
- Voxes shall have their last settler ready in few turns, settling the last site on Legos Minor; their good food city in the North (Hope) shall then pop feed the other cities
- Voxes shall not need our dyes any time soon, as their cities stay on pop 4 max for several more turns
- Voxes are building up, emphasizing libraries (three of them already built) and harbours, rushing when possible
- as of 380AD, Voxes were 12 turns from Printing Press
- Voxes plan to research Democracy not @ 40t, but faster
- Voxes arranged a deal with GS: Printing Press for Invention (I was very glad to hear that - I do not think it would be 100% ok to gift them Invention, as we got that from GoW and I am much less than sure resale/gift rights were attached)
- Voxes failed to arrange a PP deal with ND (nothing heart breaking, just the negotiations "got weird"... as if we haven't been through this with Currency)
I guess that the PM today may be the result of that Voxes realized they could strike a deal on this or that with us...
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Voxes ask about the possibility of getting Chivalry (Beta is getting a bit forgetful, I'd say  ):
quote:
Greetings vondrack. Happy New Year to Lego!!
Rhoth and I have lost track of what techs were scheduled to come Vox's way. We are assuming chivalry and banking, but we would like to make sure. The reason for asking is that we have started to negotiate a deal with GoW for chivalry in exchange for printing press, but if there is little to be gained by such a deal we will not pursue it. We would rather get cash for library and harbor rushes, and then we can use our cash on hand to research at a reasonable rate.
You had mentioned earlier that the deal we had swung with GS for printing press worked out well for all: we are simply looking for similar advice regarding the proposed deal with GoW. If there is indeed a benefit to completing the deal, we will pursue it further.
Thanks, and again, thank you for astronomy. VCS Exploration and Discovery are now underway.
And stay tuned for further installments of the Cadogan Guide to Voxtavia. Speaking of which, do you think we should keep the strategic resources on the island a secret? The iron has yet to be connected, but the name of the city probably gave it away.
Again, cheers to the folks in Legoland.
Beta.
ps - we are deeply sorry that Panama Vox was not a hit with your citizens as it is with ours. But don't worry - we are building a new vacation spot shortly, and we will try to cater more to your tastes. |
My response:
quote:
Hello, Beta! Happy New Year to all the Voxians, too!
There is no need to pursue a PP for Chivalry deal with GoW, as we are free to gift you this tech at any time (and as a matter of fact, I have offered that at least once in a chat) - the no-resale period negotiated with GoW ended long ago. The only reason for not sending it in earlier was we were not sure if you actually wanted the tech (not to mess with any horseman prebuilds - haven't realized you could have allowed it by dis- or not-connecting iron).
So, as for Chivalry - will be on its way this very turn, no problem. Banking sent last turn. That's, for this moment, all that's planned. We have gunpowder, too, but we are waiting for GS (and RP) to get it first, not making it any easier for them.
Take care,
vondrack
P.S.: I believe that the strategic resources found on Voxtavia (iron & horses, to be precise) are not really a secret. The information was acquired by others (GoW, GS) both through their own explorations and from us during the peace negotiations preceding the Voxodus. |
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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OK, just very quickly (I've got some stuff to do today). This has come from Beta this morning:
quote:
Greetings vondrack. We at Vox have reached a point where we need to sit back and think about where we go from here. To this end, Rhoth prepared the following essay, which we thought we should share with you. We would like to get together in a chat with representatives from Lego to talk some of this thorugh, as our fates would seem to be clearly inter-twined.
The one development since this has been prepared is that we have an offer from GS for Chemistry at a future date (plus luxuries) in exchange for Democracy when we finish it. You can add that to the hopper for discussion.
So - can you let us know when you and/or others might be available to chat. From our end - it would clearly be Rhoth and myself. And maybe Wittlich if we can twist his arm. conmcb is also on Vox now, but given his other activities, he has not been too active.
I am away from Friday thorugh Sunday - so the earliest for me would be Monday evening.
Let us know.
Cheers! ...Beta.
quote:
Strategic Directions from 530ad on. .....by Rhothaerill
I agree with Beta that it is time we figure out how we want to proceed with our future planning.
Currently we have a research engine that is beginning to ramp up quite nicely. We can't compete with the larger civs, but we can work on the more obscure techs (read...unnecessary for age advancement). On the military front, we're pathetically backward. But at the same time we have our big brother (Lego) protecting us.
I think we really need to get together with Lego in chat or through a series of PMs and discuss with them our future policy because a lot of it will depend on them.
Possible Future Policy Plan A) - We completely eschew military needs in favor of building research and commerce improvements, as well as aqueducts. With this policy we will be able to become a stronger research partner for giving Lego the techs we research, as well as being able to shop our techs around to the other teams for concessions much like we've done with printing press and soon democracy. This strategy will depend greatly on Lego as we will have to rely on them solely for our defense as our current military would get run over quickly.
Possible Future Policy Plan B) - After our current round of building marketplaces we begin building up a force of horsemen (by freezing our road on the iron) that can eventually be upgraded to knights and cavalry and provide us an excellent defense force against invasion by other civs. This would, of necessity, require a lot of gold for upgrades and necessitate that we ramp our research engine back down. I believe it's either 100 or 120 gold per upgrade from horse to cavalry (can't check right now). This would provide us a more secure military and make us less vulnerable to an invasion of our shores designed to hurt Lego through us, as well as giving us the ability to send forces if they are invaded. However we wouldn't be as good a research partner for Lego.
Possible Future Policy Plan C) - A hybrid of the above in which we ramp our research as much as possible until we discover democracy and then try to build up our military through the use of horseman upgrades. This has the benefit of the fact that there won't be too many techs that we can research quicker than anyone else once democracy is finished. The only tech that the other nations likely won't prioritize is free artistry until we get into the nationalism branch of extra techs.
That brings up another point that we need to discuss with Lego. We will get metallurgy and hopefully another nice tech or two for democracy trades. If Lego can get us the remaining ones as soon as possible then we will start the next age...where as the only scientific civ we will have a free tech to share with Lego! If it's Steam Power or Nationalism we might also see about keeping it to ourselves and Lego for a while.
Okay, of the above plans I'm kind of leaning toward Plan A with getting our economic engine going as fast as we can. There are a bunch of industrial age optional techs that aren't often prioritized by human players that we could shoot for and trade around. Once we get a bank up and running in New Voice then it's commerce boosters will be finished and we can start building a small mobile military with that city alone.
Thoughts? |
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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I would combine their plan A) with some of our own plans, and namely:
1. We build more caravels and extend our naval screen to protect Voxtavia, too.
2. We create a mobile force (~ 8-10 knights?), in addition to our coastal camps, that would be stationed in Legopolis or maybe even closer to Legos Minor. (this would be good for us, too, as it would be easier to counter any landings)
3. We include Voxtavia in our railroad network as soon as possible, making it easier to defend their cities.
With all these 3 elements in place, we will be able to defend all of Legos, letting Vox to concentrate on science and economy.
Besides, even if they are our little brother, I would feel more confortable without foreign cavalries roaming freely on Legos
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04-09-2003 05:21
Though I misread it last night and thought they were talking about somewhere else, and spent time in the chat room discussing how it seemed like a good idea 
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