15-02-2003 20:41									#1
	Vox Controli Increase Your PM Length

I've had an exchange of emails and PMs with BetaHound, who is the Voice of Foreign Affairs of Vox Controli. In the first email I've sent to him (which I can't find now; I've probably sent it from work) I asked for a minimap exchange, arguing that we will be able to sail soon and we would like to meet them, establish diplomatic relations, etc. I assured them that we are peaceful people, wanting to trade, that we don't have any intentions of settling their land, and stuff like this.

Getting a little impatient after not getting a response after several days, I've sent a PM asking if they got my email. The response:

quote: Yes we have it. It is currently inder debate on the floor of the Voxian senate chambers. These things take time. I believe however, that the concensus will be that we do not trade minimaps. This is more a question of morality than strategy. Our team does not feel it is in keeping with the spirit and intent of the game. We can, and will howvere, give you a detailed written description of both geography and politices from Vox's point of view - in return of course, for you view. How does that sound? ... Beta

My next PM:

It does sound good for me but I have to talk with my team and will come back with an answer. It would help if you could tell me in more detail what do you mean by "detailed written description of both geography and politices from Vox's point of view" ?

The answer:

quote: What I mean is that I will provide detailed written description of where we are in the world, what our land looks like, who are neighbours are, what kind of relations we have with them, etc. And you do the same. It is widely understood that you are on a landmasss by yourself, but we asssume you have made contact with other civs over a straight of water of some sort. Otherwise - you would be in a deep technological hole. Hope this clarifies what I mean. Let's talk. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being friends and open with each other. We are not nearby neighbours, so we won't be vying for the same piece of geography in the near future. Looking forward to hearing from you.

To clarify: I've said absolutely nothing about us (except for the upcoming discovery of Map Making), so everything he says about us (that we are alone, for instance) are speculations or info from other civs.

I think that from here Redstar (with or without the involvement of the President himself ) could take over these negotiations or at least help me phrasing a proper answer to their proposal.

	15-02-2003 21:43									#2
	Remove this text

Thats good that they think we have contact it means we are close to par on tech.

	16-02-2003 11:00									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm... interesting that they think we've made contact. They're in for a surprise when we send our write-up...

It may not be as helpful as mini-maps, but this information trade sounds good to me.

	17-02-2003 03:41									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sigh...

I must admit I am somewhat hesitant about this deal. A straight minimap exchange would be perfectly okay, but what they ask for is, IMHO, too much. We do NOT want to tell them (or anyone else, for that matter) any details about our landmass. Details like its size, the amount of good land we have... and at the same time, I do not want to lie to them...

This is my personal opinion only, but... I would probably tell them we discussed their proposal, but regretfully have to decline, as there is so little we could tell them, that we would not consider it a fair deal. Let's tell them we're alone on a fairly well-sized island with quite some bit of desert and mountains, separated from others by a vast looking ocean, thus having no ingame contacts yet. I would not be afraid of telling them that we got lucky with actually "beelining" for Map Making almost from the very beginning (having researched just one tech, BW, that was not on the path to MM). That will explain our tech level, while not telling too much about the goody hut tech orgies we have had here.

Maybe telling them we are pretty much screwed on luxuries, having only one kind of it... (that might suggest our landmass is not that large) might be ok. I'd tell them we do have some second- and third-hand outgame info on the events on the 4-civ continent... but our knowledge of what's happening is far from complete.

If they feel like telling us something about them, we will appreciate that, but for the moment, we are so "well" isolated that there is actually hardly anything to report.

	21-02-2003 10:48									#5
	Vox Minimap Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is what I've got from Vox Controli, after delivering them some information (more or less what Vondrack said).

quote: Tiberius, my friend. Good news. The 'rules' fundamentalist movement in Vox has crumbled, and a mini-map is on its way to you from Dissident. Commerce rules! We are very keen on establishing solid and long-term relations with you. We industrious civs need to stick together, eh. Speaking of which - we have a good relationship with the people of the Gathering Storm, our neighbours. I can give you much more detail on our technical achievements. We are world leaders in this regard - and are currently researching Philosophy, as part of a joint-team research arrangement on our way to The Republic. If you could sail in our direction with your first galley - we think that would be due west from your locale - the mini-maps should help here - and help see if your galley can make it - then we could establish formal trading relationships. We could also guarantee you a good trading deal on a wide selection of technology at a very good rates. We believe that reasonable deals pave the way to a solid friendship. In fact - we are willing to offer very, very good deals if we were to be your first contact. Please give this some consideration, and I can provide more details later. Alas - it is late - and I must be off to bed. The mini-map should be on its way. We look forward to yours in return. Dissident at Krusher3x@yahoo.com is the best address to use. Cheers my dear sir. And regards to the industrious folks of Legoland. We salute you! Sincerely - BetaHound, Voice of Foreign affairs, Vox Controli

	21-02-2003 14:03									#6
	Re: Vox Minimap Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius This is what I've got from Vox Controli, after delivering them some information (more or less what Vondrack said).

3500BC minimaps exchanged, update to be found in the Chronicle update later today.

	21-03-2003 16:19									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've sent the following message to BetaHound today, at 8,35 AM GMT. Sorry, I was busy and I didn't have the time to post it earlier.

quote: Hello again my friend, Woof, woof! Khmm, hmm, sorry, I mean, glad to see you again We haven't talked for a long time, and I'm really sorry for that. I know it was a difficult decision and yet I haven't even thank you for the minimap exchange. Thank you Unfortunately the GodZ of Civ3 have put us on very distant locations on the map and this has clearly influenced our (lack of) relations until now. This will hopefully change in the near future (the relations, not the location ), and in regard to this issue I have good news for you: first, we are going te get your contact soon and second, I'm the new ambassador to Vox Controli With the official contact being almost established, we should maybe begin working on those mutually beneficial arrangements we were talking bout. The first trade that is doable right now is perhaps a tech exchange, or more precisely a future tech exchange arrangement. Like I said in my previous message, we are not behind in the tech race. Let's just say that the lesser tribes living in huts were very, very friendly with us Also in the last couple of turns we managed to sign some very good tech deals, therefor we can offer you the following proposal: In less than 10 turns we can offer you Construction and Currency. This would allow to your nation to enter the next age. In return we would like your free tech, the one you get once you go medieval. Well, this is just a rough proposal, please feel free to make a counter proposal in case you want it changed, have other ideas, want some other tech, etc. We thought this would be the best solution in this case, as we could start from the same point in the medieval times, but we are open to discuss any proposal. Just one comment in regard to my ambassadorship: given my limited online time, please contact me in PMs or emails for any businesses related to Legoland but in case you need urgent talking with us (chat), please contact Vondrack (our President) or Nimitz (our FA). However, in case we agree on scheduled chats, I will try to be there. Best regards to the Voxian people. Cheers, Tiberius the Enlightened (Minister of Economy and Science) Legoland

	21-03-2003 16:23									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Is there a possibility to delete a PM that wasn't opened yet? If so, we might consider deleting one of them (Radek, do you mind posting yours too, to see which one to keep?). If we can't delete one of them, it will be quite embarassing.

Btw, BetaHound didn't open my message yet.

	21-03-2003 17:06									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Is there a possibility to delete a PM that wasn't opened yet? If so, we might consider deleting one of them (Radek, do you mind posting yours too, to see which one to keep?). If we can't delete one of them, it will be quite embarassing. Btw, BetaHound didn't open my message yet.

Yes, it is possible, I think - go into your "Sent Items" folder, tick the checkbox mark to the very right and push the Delete button at the bottom of the screen. It should delete the PM both from your box and BH's.

Be so kind and delete your message, if possible - there is one thing I would not like to make so obvious (that we have or will have Construction). I was very vague in my PM, just proposing "providing Voxes with techs needed to go medieval in exchange for their free medieval tech).

However, keep the text somewhere - much of it can be reused later on.

	21-03-2003 17:13									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What's the problem with Construction? It is needed to go medieval, so "techs needed to go medieval" means construction, too. What other tech could we possibly trade with them? I don't understand what is wrong with saying "construction".

	21-03-2003 17:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius What's the problem with Construction? It is needed to go medieval, so "techs needed to go medieval" means construction, too. What other tech could we possibly trade with them? I don't understand what is wrong with saying "construction".

Nothing really wrong, I would just prefer not naming the tech directly. If we phrase it vaguely, we can always bargain, 'cause they will consider the Construction tech more valuable (assuming we have to get it somewhere together with rights to resell it). If we plainly admit we are able to provide them with the tech, we give them a hint we have already secured it... thus weakening our position a bit. Not a big deal, of course... it's just a minor detail.

	21-03-2003 17:39									#12
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They are somehow secretive and not very open to "special" deals, so to speak (see the minimap exchange). Therefor, while I agree with you that this will slightly weaken our position, I think we must give them something really attractive otherwise they won't "bite" the deal. My impression is that if we go only with a vague proposal right now, they will just say that "sorry, we already have a deal with the GS, blah-blah". I might be wrong, but I'd rather not risk this deal. We just don't knwo what arrangement the GS will offer to us for Monotheism.

Edit: this is futile now. Beta has opened the PM more than half an hour ago, I just forgot to refresh the tracking screen (where I was preparing to cancel it). Let's see what kind of answer we get.

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-03-2003 at 18:02

	24-03-2003 14:12									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

In case they accept the trade (no words from them until now), what is the exact date when we want to make the exchange? Turn 84? (to syncronize it with the GoW and GS exchanges)

	25-03-2003 05:14									#14
	Got spare money?

As announced in the GS diplo thread, I have had a chat with BetaHound of Vox Controli this night. First, here is the log (only very slightly edited):

quote: Session Start: Mon Mar 24 23:14:13 2003 Session Ident: BetaHound vondrack: Hello! BetaHound: hello BetaHound: how are you? vondrack: quite fine, thanks vondrack: you? BetaHound: good thanks; sorry for the slight delay; whats' up vondrack: well, some trading issues to discuss BetaHound: okey dokey vondrack: let me make a short summary first: vondrack: 1) we will have Currency in 4 turns vondrack: 2) we will have Construction at the same time vondrack: now, we had an idea vondrack: to make you, us, and GS enter the medieval times at the same time vondrack: giving every one of us the same techs vondrack: Curr+Constr, Rep, Monotheism vondrack: we thought it would have been a fair deal, beneficial to everybody vondrack: now, things got a bit more complex than we anticipated vondrack: there seems to be something going on between you and GS... like you may be sharing techs or something... dunno vondrack: either way, we would like to discuss a possible trade between you and us vondrack: are you free to arrange your deals without having to consult GS? BetaHound: yup vondrack: great vondrack: now, what techs do you need to leave the ancient times? vondrack: if any, of course BetaHound: that may be the problem - we have everything arranged BetaHound: we think vondrack: ok, let me ask - is that "arranged" through GS? vondrack: at least partially? BetaHound: hmmmm - rather not say - if that is OK. vondrack: well, then I will explain vondrack: we had a deal pre-discussed with GS vondrack: but it later turned out that both parties understood it in a different way vondrack: and there is now a major problem BetaHound: which is? vondrack: since our original idea was to trade Curr, Constr, Rep, and your free medieval tech between our team, yours, and GS vondrack: no extra money involved vondrack: just techs vondrack: the costs are approximately equal: Curr+Constr, Rep, Mono vondrack: so every team would throw in the same and get the same vondrack: more or less vondrack: the problem is vondrack: that it seems like we may be supposed to throw in more to get Mono vondrack: which we do not really like vondrack: it seems rather unfair to us vondrack: now, what we do about it? BetaHound: so - your trade with GS was republic for curr and construction? vondrack: possibly vondrack: not sure how much I can reveal BetaHound: hmmm - OK vondrack: basically, yes vondrack: now, how much of what we are now talking about will get to GS? BetaHound: zip vondrack: k vondrack: there were more clauses in the deal vondrack: we at first wanted to swap curr+constr for rep vondrack: with them vondrack: and curr+constr for the "free" tech with you vondrack: assuming they would swap rep for your free tech with you vondrack: which would be fair vondrack: maybe they'd have to throw in some more cash in the deal with you vondrack: the problem now is vondrack: that GS wants us to give them curr+constr vondrack: for rep vondrack: then trade these for mono with you vondrack: and provide mono to us "for a favourable price" vondrack: but we do not feel like agreeing to such a deal vondrack: see my reasoning above BetaHound: ahhh..I see. BetaHound: yup vondrack: this would clearly be beneficial only to GS BetaHound: for sure vondrack: both of us would get less BetaHound: question. BetaHound: Do you have cash? vondrack: reasonable amount of, yes BetaHound: OK - how about this? vondrack: and likely to get a bit more - we have this Barbarian Express Card Platinum, you know vondrack: yes? BetaHound: Wait till I am finished before you respond. vondrack: ok BetaHound: You give us 100 gold now and 50 when we give you the free tech. BetaHound: We will give you the free tech. BetaHound: Within 30 turns of that deal being finalized, we will give you 100 gold back. BetaHound: So in effect - we sell it to you for 50 gold BetaHound: We need a loan. BetaHound: Finished. vondrack: plus curr+constr, right? BetaHound: No - they are coming. We have other sources. vondrack: or would you get those form GS? vondrack: ah, ok vondrack: on condition we make the deal with them... BetaHound: OK - sounds fair. vondrack: we are the only source of construction in the world BetaHound: And we solenmly promise to repay. vondrack: well, what about this: vondrack: you throw in Mono resale rights for one more team of our choice, we add 25 more gold and the deal is done BetaHound: OK - can I suggest you make that deal now - and that RP may be the only team left to deal with. BetaHound: Sorry - we have been busy. BetaHound: Is that still worth 25 gold to you? vondrack: not sure what you mean now... can you clarify? BetaHound: We may have deals with all the other teams but RP sewed up for mono. BetaHound: They may not pan out - but if they do - RP will be the only one left. vondrack: sounds doable... but I would probably prefer getting back to the original 100+50 deal BetaHound: understood. Maybe we should leave it flexible - if we can't strike a deal - we give you the re-trade rights for 25 gold only if two or more teams are involved. Fair? vondrack: may I make a small side-step? vondrack: this may clarify something for me vondrack: how serious your situation on Bob is? BetaHound: not pretty - but we are talking vondrack: we may be able to provide you with a little bit of intel BetaHound: OK - I'm all ears. vondrack: how much do you know about bob (geography I mean)? BetaHound: We know it is large. vondrack: but no map, right? BetaHound: no vondrack: weeellll... vondrack: what if Lego has an almost complete map of Bob? BetaHound: hmmm vondrack: with no strings attached BetaHound: Would be helpful - very helpful. vondrack: well, back to the main topic vondrack: how much money do you need ATM? BetaHound: 4000 gold BetaHound: hehe vondrack: LoL vondrack: the idea: BetaHound: 100 at a minimum. More would be great vondrack: what if we make the loan bigger vondrack: but you pay it pack later on in full? BetaHound: Or provide a future tech? vondrack: good idea! vondrack: that would certainly be a way vondrack: yes BetaHound: So - how much are you talking? vondrack: ATM, we can scrap only 80, I think (wait till I am finished) vondrack: but we will get more from our deals very shortly vondrack: I believe that we would be able to make it 200 together BetaHound: OK vondrack: may even be better than that, but I would be promising too much BetaHound: so we provide mono when we get it BetaHound: you provide 100 gold as soon as you have it and 100 more when we provide mono BetaHound: and we either pay 150 back, or offer up a free tech BetaHound: is that the deal? vondrack: just a sec vondrack: yes, that sounds like an acceptable deal BetaHound: great - and what about the map. pretty please. BetaHound: I asked nicely BetaHound: vondrack: we would be able to provide you with an outgame image vondrack: as a special courtesy BetaHound: OK - sounds good vondrack: ingame is not possible, since it would include our own land BetaHound: Thank-you. Great doing business with you! vondrack: one more thing vondrack: nah, forget it vondrack: I was going to ask vondrack: how long will Vox last (to be able to repay the loan)... but that was obviously a very stupid question vondrack: how much would you value that map? vondrack: I mean vondrack: I know you would not be able to pay for it vondrack: but let's say BetaHound: Don't worry about that. We may appear to be off-balanced in public - but we are not crazy. vondrack: vondrack: I thought so BetaHound: North Estonia is like a fortress vondrack: BetaHound: there is only one tile into it vondrack: re: map BetaHound: and we have Elipolis built there BetaHound: we may not have much room to expand - but we would be hard to take out. vondrack: vondrack: ok vondrack: well, let me summarize: vondrack: 1) Lego will provide Vox with 100 gold ASAP (3 turn max) vondrack: - we can do 80 immediately, 20 in 3 turns, if it helps BetaHound: no - 100 in 3 is good thanks vondrack: 2) Lego will receive your free tech (most likely Monotheism) as soon as you get it vondrack: and provide more 100 gold in exchange vondrack: out of those 200 gold, 150 will be repayed within 30 turns of the Monotheism exchange vondrack: the possibility of "paying" back with a technology will be negotiable BetaHound: yup - sounds good. vondrack: plus, as a special extra, Legoland will provide Vox with an outgame image of Bob that will not be paid for BetaHound: deal. vondrack: - hope you will keep this "gift" in mind later on... BetaHound: and you are getting a good price on the tech vondrack: yes... one more question: BetaHound: but yes - we will keep it in mind BetaHound: yes - shoot vondrack: if we stall the deal with GS (for whatever reason), shall it affect our own deal (read: delay the Mono delivery)? vondrack: just to be sure what affects what, so that we do not mess up BetaHound: to a certain extent - yes. vondrack: ok, we will keep that in mind BetaHound: oh - btw - can you send me the relevant part of this conversation with the actual deal. vondrack: I can send you the full log, if you like BetaHound: OK - that would be great thanks. vondrack: fine vondrack: pleasure talking to you vondrack: wish you good luck with the war BetaHound: and with you - as always vondrack: and we will make sure the money is with you ASAP vondrack: take care vondrack: bye Session Close: Tue Mar 25 00:29:57 2003

I will add my comments and the trade agreement proposal in the next post.

	25-03-2003 05:50									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here goes the trade agreement proposal I am going to send to BetaHound:

quote: Vox-Lego Monotheism Trade Agreement of 1050BC Hereby, Vox Controli and Legoland agree upon that: 1) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 gold at its earliest convenience (no later than on its Turn 81, so that Vox Controli receives the money on its Turn 82). 2) Vox Controli will provide Legoland with the "free" technology granted to scientific civilizations upon entering the medieval ages (most probably Monotheism in this case) on the very turn Vox Controli receives it. 3) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 more gold immediately upon the receipt of the "free medieval" technology mentioned in the previous paragraph. 4) Vox Controli will repay 150 gold back to Legoland within 30 turns of receiving the second part of the "loan" (see the previous paragraph). 5) Both teams agree that it may be possible to negotiate using a technology to repay part or whole of the 150 gold "loan". 6) Legoland will not be allowed to resell/trade/gift the technology received from Vox Controli, unless expressly authorized by an amendment to this trade agreement. 7) Both teams agree to disclose no details of this trade agreement to a third party.

Few comments: in the worst case, we'll get Monotheism for 50 gold, which is very reasonable (moreover, we will likely get some gold from GS, as we will now offer just a simplified deal, not covering Monotheism). In the best case, we will get it effectively for free...

For us, helping Voxes out in their war, even if secretly, is rather advantageous - the longer and more they slow down Bobians, the better for us. Plus, we will not actually need the gold until we go into Republic, which will not happen until we finish Pyramids (Turn 93, 10 turns into the "repay" period + some anarchy...), and even then, we will most likely have gold enough anyway... so the loan shall not really mess up with our own plans.

There is some risk involved, of course... if Voxes lose the war and get exterminated, we lose the loan... unless, of course, we offer them refuge on... oh! better not even think of such a turn of tides...

	25-03-2003 11:22									#16
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The deal is good, IMHO. In the worst case, we lose 200 gold (not 50) but, what we get in return is worth it. We buy not only Monotheism, but some time also, because the more the Voxes will rezist in this war, the more time we have to expand and build our infrastructure+military.

Besides I don't really think that the Voxes will be eliminated, with only one exception from the possible scenarios: if the GS attacks them. Otherwise, things are not looking that bad: they will have their golden ages, they have immortals, now they have a map of Bob and some money, plus the GS will get involved for sure if Bobians land on Estonia, plus it will take some time for any of them to build a fleet; so they have a chance.
I wouldn't like to be in anyone's place when Voxes will land on a hill, near one of their cities with 2 spears + 2 immortals! Ouch!

	25-03-2003 11:56									#17
	Remove this text

And, just remember everyone: the deal is top secret!! We don't want any of the Bobians to find out that we're aiding their enemy...

	25-03-2003 13:01									#18
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That's for sure!

	25-03-2003 13:25									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In return for the Bob map, that is simply priceless for Vox, could we maybe ask for screenshots from time to time with their part of Bob, so that we could see the ongoing battle?

	25-03-2003 16:24									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No, I don't think we should trade the Bob Map to Vox.

Too risky, if Vox moves directly for a Bob city like the eastern GoW or ND ones - the Bob civs will figure out that they have the Bob map.

Trading 200 gold for Monotheism won't raise that much anger from the Bob civs as they won't know when we did that transaction (we could have done it before the war for all they know)

But giving Vox the map of Bob will turn all 3 against us - and we can't afford that right now.

So I agree with the Mono trade/loan but absolutely am opposed to trading the map now.

	25-03-2003 16:38									#21
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We don't trade an "ingame" map. We give them the map of Bob in an external format (like jpg). No one can catch us: we didn't trade our world map.. Besides, there isn't any treaty that would deny us in doing so.
Needless to say that this treaty will remain top secret.

Plus we have do help Vox as much as we can, to:
1. Prevent Bob becoming too powerful
2. someday we get back our money
3. Prevent another "Lux" happening

	26-03-2003 00:03									#22
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I'm on board with the entire deal. Giving the map is a little risky, but all we are doing is leveling the playing field a bit. The Bobs may be suspicions, but it won't effect any current deals.

I am concerned that Vondrack basicly closed the deal with no one's approval. The end conversation make it sound like the deal was approved on the spot. Please remember that we rule by democracy.

	26-03-2003 00:48									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

To be fair I don't think thats the case. That was a final draft as I understand it and of course it would need support from everyone else. Please also note that although Vondrack handled negociations, there were a few of us present online at the time and we all gave our own support to it there and then. I think thats enough to proceed there and then, and of course it was posted here to gain everyones approval

	26-03-2003 01:16									#24
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What Redstar says. There's no need to repeat it once again.

This being said, I fully support the deal.

	26-03-2003 01:20									#25
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All very true, but what if approval wasn't gained?

For example, Sharpe was not in agreement about gifting the Bob map. If a majority held this opinion, then we would be in a tough position.

In any case, something to remember.

	26-03-2003 01:36									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree mate, however I think sharpe assumed that it was the whole map, of course its just the map of bob. Noone is going to know it was us and noone need ever know. Its one more thing we can do to help keep the balance of power that benefits us. I hope sharpe understands that. If not he is welcome to bring it up and we shall discuss it

I've no problem with people disagreeing with decisions and I think we do it the right way by guaging general opinion rather than have a poll for absolutely everything. I think its fair to assume that if 3/4/5 members are in favour then most of us will be. From personal experience I haven't found Vondrack to be making any decisions at all without at least conferring with someone in the IRC channel first. The really important, non-administrative decisions are made in the forums and everyone has the oppurtunity to voice their opinion

	26-03-2003 02:01									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: All very true, but what if approval wasn't gained?

Then we would have said to Vox that our members don't agree with the treaty and as such it must be renegotiated, blah blah blah.

Isn't it the same in real life democracies? The governments negotiate and the Parlaments approve... or not, in which case the treaty is renegotiated. It is that simple. Radek didn't approve it by himself, he asked our opinion first (those who were in the chatroom at that time) and now he posted it for approval here. What's the problem?

We must help Vox, if for nothing else than to survive to give us back the money. Do you think that Monotheism for 50 gold isn't a good deal? Wait then to see what the GS will ask for it.

	26-03-2003 02:05									#28
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Just to chime in briefly - the final draft I sent to BetaHound was clearly marked as "final draft" subject to approval by the whole Lego team. We can still back off, if we want... though I believe it would be a mistake.

I do my best to handle stuff in a democratic way - and I would have no (major) problem cancelling the deal, if not approved by the majority of the team. But see... if me and two other members that were online, following the chat in our private chatroom agreed and were ok with the deal, it was very likely that it'd be approved anyway, as we seldom have more than 6 voters in our polls... sometimes, spending 24 hours on "finalizing" a deal is a luxury we cannot afford. And this was, IMHO, the case.

Perhaps it was my fault that I failed to mention in the chatlog post there were at least two other members of Lego (redstar & Tiberius... not sure if there was anyone else) following the chat I was copying for them into our private chatroom. Sorry for that, the whole thing about closing a deal with no approval might have looked a bit different then.

	26-03-2003 04:03									#29
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I agree that you should mention IRC attendance during negotiations.

to the treaty. Make sure the most important clause (secrecy) stays in. There'll be hell to pay if Bob finds out about the loan, much less the map.

	26-03-2003 04:37									#30
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quote: however I think sharpe assumed that it was the whole map, of course its just the map of bob.

No, I knew that - I am fundamentally opposed to giving the map of Bob to Vox. If it was just one civ from Bob fighting Vox - maybe it would be ok, but it is all 3 to my knowledge, and we still don't know GS's stand on it. If they join the war against Vox too, we may be caught and face the entire world against us...

Tweaking the Bob civs noses by giving 200 gold for the promise of Monotheism is one thing - don't forget that they still don't have currency and construction and have denied getting those from GS - and pray tell if that is the case where else can they get those from as they are at war with everyone else...

But the map is entirely another - we don't want to appear to be supporting Vox's actions to give a precedent to the other civs in regards to our continent.
Or incur all of their anger - to trade the Bob map to Vox is not a good idea at all... we gain little and risk a lot - don't forget that Vox is the weakest of the remaining civs with 3 against them and with GS still uncertain to join against them or not.

If Vox drives toward the eastern ND and GoW cities, they will KNOW that they have a map and that can only come from one source - US... (Lux couldn't have given it due to their lack of map making and GS doesn't have the map either)

EDIT: from the GS discussion thread, they admit that they were the ones that were trading Construction + Currency to Vox which of course will come from us - so we have caught Vox in a lie - not a good way to have a working relationship.