04-07-2003 12:50									#181
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Did they get the LM minimap (screenshot) from us? Let them plan their 9 cities (I didn't even think that it was remotely possible to squize 10 cities in that little, mountaneous peninsula )

	04-07-2003 14:06									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Did they get the LM minimap (screenshot) from us? Let them plan their 9 cities (I didn't even think that it was remotely possible to squize 10 cities in that little, mountaneous peninsula )

Yes, I did send them a full map of Legos Minor. It was this one:



And I have also sent them two maps outlining whatever I was able to come up using my city placement templates, accompanied by some comments. Including them here for your information. 10 cities will fit there just fine.





And if anyone cares, these were my comments:

quote: 1) Southernmost city ("Panama Vox") This is actually a pretty cool location - it would be a "canal" city, allowing your vessels to sail freely around your land, taking always the shortest route - making it almost an island... It would also be a key stronghold against any invasions coming from Legos Major (hmm, as if there were plans for any... nevermind ). With a temple/library and a harbour, it will have a LOT of water tiles to work, plus two hills - max pop 13 even before railroads & electricity, after the desert gets irrigated and railroaded, max pop 15-20. 2) the city N of Panama Vox ("Guadalajara") Pretty much the same as Panama Vox, but it will not be a "canal" city. Slightly worse, but not much. You will be able to work all water tiles plus two hills. Plus all the desert tiles after you irrigate/RR them. Max pop 10-12 before RR+el, 10-17 afterwards. 3) the city NE of Guadalajara ("Houston") This city will become useful after the discovery of electricity. With all five plains irrigated & RRed, you will have a surplus of 7 food. That will allow you to work all coastal tiles, plains, and hills in the city radius (except one that will be worked by Guadalajara), plus two mountains. Will become a production powerhouse, but only after some time. The start will be slow, though - but the forest chops will help to get the basic city improvements (temple/lib, harbour) done a little bit quicker. Max pop 6 before RR+el, 10-15 afterwards. 4) the city by the iron mountain ("Irony") Not a splendid location, but gives you your own iron. With a harbour, it will be able to work all coastal tiles plus the iron mountain. May borrow grasslands from the capital, if there is a need for quick growth. Max pop 10-13 before RR+el, 10-16 afterwards. 5) the city SW of the horse ("New Orleans") Most of the comments on Houston apply here, too. Will become more useful after you irrigate and RR the plains between Houston and New Orleans. With templ/lib+harb and irrigated/RRed plains, you will have a food surplus of 3-5 (depends on how many plains Houston will work), allowing you to work all water tiles plus three hills. Max pop 9-14. 6) the city NE of the horse ("Orlando") Once temple/library + harbour are in place, you will be able to work all coastal tiles, the whale, and three hills. Probably a production centre. Max pop 9-12. 7) the capital ("The New Voice") The location of your capital may be a bit arguable, but I would lean toward placing it ONTO the bonus grassland instead of the grassland one tile NW or forests. The reason is quite simple - a more central (actually, almost ideally central) location. I am quite sure that the one shield you'd "waste" this way will be more then balanced by lower waste in your other cities. Plus, there would be one small advantage to this location - it is not visible from the sea, so your hideout would not appear on any map, but ours (hopefully - as we believe nobody has landed on Legos Minor yet, but us). Forests will help you to build a granary quickly, may reveal a bonus grass... Max pop 6 before RR+el, 9 with all grasslands irrigated & RRed. 8) the city NEE from the capital ("Poortown") The worst location, no doubt. All coastal tiles and two hills will be the maximum there. Max pop 4-9. 9) the city E of the golden mountains ("Halifax") A decent location, 10 water tiles, 1-2 grasses (the bonus one overlaps)... With a temple/lib+harbour and irrigated+RRed grasses, the city will be able to work all water tiles, two hills, and both gold mountains. Max pop 10-14 pre-el.+RR, up to 17 afterwards. 10) the city W of the golden mountains ("Anchorage") Another quite decent site. Max pop up to 17 pre el.+RR, up to 21 afterwards. Probably site #2 for you, as it can grow to pop 9 even w/o a temple or library. The fish is your only 2+ food tile, so this would be a natural candidate for a granary. With a harbour and granary, this city could be your settler/worker farm. Well. I must admit that it is a bit better than I thought it would be. It is amazing how much one can squeeze out of such a bad land. Few more thoughts: You will need as many settlers from your old homeland as possible, as those will be difficult to build for you on Legos Minor. OTOH, you'll be able to do with relatively few workers, as you will have only a limited amount of land tiles to improve. You will be getting most of your GNP from the sea... considering Persia is scientific, I believe you would probably do best if focusing on building a super-research empire. Get as much commerce from the coastal/sea tiles and pump it into research. Build mostly research facilities, marketplaces, and such. With a relatively small army (45 units of any kind), you would be able to make Legos Minor an unpenetrable fortress (lining your shores with units). Even after marines come into play, you should be able to run your new empire with just a decent army, focusing on the research.

	04-07-2003 15:32									#183
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Looking at this more closely and doing some rough sums (as well as taking into account protection from 'big brother'). Vox ain't as dead as everyone thinks they are going to be. If they are prepared to they can make a valuable contribution to the greater Lego empire

	04-07-2003 15:34									#184
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Indeed, it is not as bad as I'd have thought

I'd have done it maybe slightly differetly (after a first look):

- Anchorage one tile NE; a powerhouse with one fish, 4 grasslands !! one hill and 2 gold-mountains;
- Halifax 2 tiles SE (interfering less with Anchorage and gaining one grass)
- scrap Poortown (it's almost useless anyway)
- Orlando one tile north (not sure about this)
(9 cities instead of 10)

Otherwise I couldn't do it better myself

	04-07-2003 15:44									#185
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@what redstar says: I have one crazy, no wait, one CRAZY idea about the endgame:

Should Lego be close to winning the game (for ex. being a few turns away to finish the spaceship) with the help of the Voxian scientist, I imagined this scenario (those with heart problems read further on your own risk )
- Vox would gift all its cities to Lego
- a Lego unit would take the Voxian capital (it cannot be gifted, afair) (can you imagine the boost to our powergraph?)
- all Voxians would join Lego "en masse" (all of them in the same time)
- Lego, together with the Voxians, wins the game

	04-07-2003 15:55									#186
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Just a note: I do not claim this was an optimal city setup. Just one of the possible setups that was actually a pretty solid "little brother" empire. I believe that if Voxes properly emphasize the research (and they are scientific, which should help big time - think of the cheap libs & unis), they can indeed be a valuable partner to us.

The beauty of this is that TO US, Legos Minor would be pretty much useless even if using a brilliant city setup (because of the waste & corruption). To Voxes, this can be a pretty decent homeland, allowing them more than just to survive.

And as far as crazy endgame ideas go... Tibi, you might be surprised how much crazier thoughts I have already had... They're so crazy I cannot even indirectly point out what they were...

	04-07-2003 16:26									#187
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Vegoland!!
LegoX!

	04-07-2003 17:35									#188
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Legovox!

	04-07-2003 18:35									#189
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Tibi, you might be surprised how much crazier thoughts I have already had... They're so crazy I cannot even indirectly point out what they were...

We're still talking about the game, aren't we ?

	04-07-2003 20:49									#190
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VoLegoX!

	04-07-2003 21:44									#191
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Hmmm...Vox does not even need to use their FP. So if there were a greater Legoland empire, they could have the cities and use their FP.

	04-07-2003 22:07									#192
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Hmmm...Vox does not even need to use their FP. So if there were a greater Legoland empire, they could have the cities and use their FP.

They can have RP's land.

	05-07-2003 12:26									#193
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After a polite reminder, Beta sent us the official Vox response to our "neighbour treaty":

quote: Greetings vondrack. My apologies for not getting this back to you sooner, Agreement was reached very quickly within Vox, but discussion on the timing of the jump had overtaken the thread, and I never got back to it. We Voxians are very much on-side with this proposal. In fact - we find the tech arrangement quite generous. Our plan is to max out on commerce and libraries to make us as quickly as possible a worthy partner in such a deal. I think the wording of #8, which is a bit awkard right now - should read: V.C. agrees to no trading of maps... . As it stands now we could agree to 'prefer' not to do it, but still do it against our preference. Not that we would use such a loop-hole, but the revised wording would make it clear. Maybe we should add, "unless approved by Lego" in case there is ever a good reason that the alliance may want to trade it. The only area of minor discussion was Clause #4, about Vox not declaring war on another country without your approval. It hurts our pride a bit - as a certain autonomy is lost. But - if I was in your shoes - and knowing our history , I would demand the same. You do not want to be dragged into Immortal Beloved 2 against your will. Also, as our commitment now is to fully support Lego economically, politically, and if need be militarily, this clause, in reality, causes us no problems. To put it another way... after the failed war against GS, our objective in this game has been re-defined. We simply want to be second. It beats going out early. So - on a more official note - I Beta, on behalf of Vox Controli, agree to the following treaty, in this the year 190 BC. quote: Treaty of The New Voice 1) Legoland agrees to give Legos Minor to Vox Controli as a new homeland. Legos Minor is defined as all land beyond the isthmus of Invoice/Benelux (see the map). No Vox Controli settlement may be founded South of the site marked as "Southernmost Vox Controli City on Legos Minor". Considering the land shown on the map attached, Legoland will settle no more sites than Port Hammer and Invoice/Benelux. 2) Legoland will, at its earliest convenience, found and gift a 2-pop city on Legos Minor to Vox Controli, in a location specified by Vox Controli. Legoland will make reasonable efforts to protect this city from barbarians until Vox Controli is able to protect it with its own forces. 3) Neither Legoland, nor Vox Cotroli will ever accept a city trying to defect (aka "culture flip") to the other party. 4) Vox Controli will never declare war on another civ without Legoland's approval and consent. Legoland will never declare war on Vox Controli, except for fake/staged wars as needed for GA triggering, combat training ("GL factory") or worker exchange. Fake wars would be declared with the approval of both parties involved. 5) All techs researched by either Legoland or Vox Controli must be shared with the other team upon request. Any techs requested under this clause are subject to a permanent Non-Disclosure Agreement; the team receiving the tech may not trade/gift/resell it to anyone else without the giving team's permission. This does NOT apply to techs acquired by trading with third parties. 6) If Legoland lacks a strategic resource Vox Controli has, Vox is obliged to provide it to Lego upon request. If Legoland has a surplus of a strategic resource Vox Controli lacks, Legoland is obliged to provide it to Vox Controli upon request. In both cases, a reasonable balance may be requested in exchange. 7) As soon as reasonably possible, Vox agree to build a warrior to keep in reserve for triggering Legoland's GA (a sacrifice to a Merc). 8) Vox Controli agrees to no trading of maps of Legos Minor to other civs, unless specifically approved by Lego.

So... all they did was they made one clause more strict.

	08-07-2003 05:45									#194
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Message from Beta in the save e-mail:

quote: Greetings Legolanders! Status update. We have two scenarios - one that wraps up in 4 turns - one that gets it done in 3. We prefer the former. That gives us 8 settlers and 12 workers, and a very small army - somewhat humbling for the nation which once had the largest military. 2 of the settlers are in galleys and still some 8-10 turns from landing at last count. Engineering in 4 turns. Does our 4 turn schedule fit with the founding of the new city? Will keep you apprised of events from our end. Cheers ... Beta,

	10-07-2003 01:44									#195
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And another with today's 110 BC save:

quote: Greetings! And our deepest thanks for our new homeland! Trust you are having fun hunting barbs. Our lead galley is some 7 turns away, As per my PM of yesterday - jump set to happen in 3 turns. We are bringing a pre-packaged civilization. Open the zip-lock bag containing settlers, workers, and a small army - and simply add land. Presto! A civilization in one easy step. Engineering up in 3. You may want to give some thought as to what we research next. Poly is down right now. Will post in the 'save sent' thread when it is up. Regards - and again, thank you. ...Beta.

I suggest Vox research PP. It's about the only tech that can be done on 40 turn research.

Edit: Or, per vondrack's suggestion, they could shut down research... but we're probably going to be spending close to 40 turns on other techs, if not more, so PP would be useful.

	10-07-2003 01:49									#196
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Either that or shutting their research down completely until we can provide them with Invention, which would allow them to research Gunpowder for us (@40t), us doing PP & Demo in the meantime.

But PP is probably safer in that Invention and Gunpowder WILL be done by someone else, and likely as fast as possible (Invention by GoW because of the Leo's Workshop, Gunpowder by whoever becomes the next target).

Well, yes, agreed, PP.

	11-07-2003 01:33									#197
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Unless someone objects within 24 hours, I am going to ask Voxes to pick Printing Press as their next 40-turn research goal.

	11-07-2003 22:28									#198
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Just PMed this to Beta:

quote: Hi, Beta! We've been discussing the research strategy that would maximize our (yours & ours) gains... after lot of pondering, we believe that it would be best for you to go for Printing Press @ 40 turns. Here is why (feel free to argue - and keep in mind the information below is STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL, please... post this PM in your team forum in full or in part, but make sure all Voxians understand the information is CLASSIFIED): 1) Right after your "hop", you will have no choice but to go for a 40-turn research. 2) ATM, Lego is doing Astronomy, GS is doing Banking. These two techs are therefore out of question, as they will be discovered within ~10-15 turns. 3) This leaves only 2 techs "available": Printing Press & Invention. 4) We are almost 100% sure that GoW will do Invention as fast as possible, because they have been prebuilding Leo's in the Imperial City for ages. 5) ND and RP are very likely to end up warring each other soon (if not them, then I don't really know who could be ND's target - and that ND is going to attack someone, is beyond any doubts). Warring parties are unlikely to do any serious research. 6) This leaves Printing Press pretty much "unclaimed", likely for many turns - even @ the 40 turn research, you could be the first ones to discover it, acquiring a valuable asset. After the initial 40 turn period, we'll see - we are not sure if your new empire could be ready to start doing faster research so soon, but - you can always pleasantly surprise us... Let us know if this is okay with you. There's another possibility, which seems to be a close second - that assumes you'd shut your research down completely until GoW discovers Invention (or until we discover Astronomy) and pick a more expensive tech (Gunpowder or Navigation) only then, to maximize the efficiency of the 40-turn research. But that involves significantly more risk than going for PP right now - Gunpowder, as a strategic tech, is very likely to be researched by someone else (someone faster). And we plan doing Navigation ourselves. So, our recommendation would be: go for PP, please. Looking forward to seeing your people on Legos Minor (btw, I believe we can consider The New Voice transfer successful now - our guardian units should be able to handle anything that approaches your new capital for those 2-3 turns you will need to hop the rest of your battered nation there). Take care, vondrack P.S.: to prevent unnecessary research delays, we will be sending you Theology this turn.

	13-07-2003 12:57									#199
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And here is the response:

quote: Hi Radek. It has been discussed and polled - and there is unanimous support for researching printing press. It had already been discussed and generally agreed to before you approached us. Great civs thinks alike. Engineering is up next turn and on its way, Btw - did not see Theology this turn. Our last settler is produced next turn - and the transfer mechnanics start. We will be in anarchy - but will convert one citizen to a scientist - or 10% research - to keep us in the research loop. We will expand quickly once we arrive - given that we have 8 settlers and 12 industrious workers. See you soon. .... Bruce/Beta

	08-08-2003 17:49									#200
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I believe it may be the right moment to publicly announce that Vox Controli has arrived and settled at Legos Minor with our consent. If nothing else, it may add a small bit to the confusion about what we (Lego) are actually after. Here is a draft:

quote: Nations of the World, It is with joy in our hearts that we can announce a happy-end to one of the greatest hardships a nation has ever been through in the PtWDG. After a violent history of tension, treachery, backstabbing, and a lost war, the nation of Vox Controli, now battered and tired, finally arrived at the coast of Legos Minor and built first cities in their new world exile. This was previously arranged with and agreed to by Legoland, that used to claim Legos Minor as part of its homeland. We welcome our new neighbours and wish them patience, persistence, and luck in developing the harsh land of the rocky peninsula. We also hereby pledge to protect Vox Controli in their new exile home against anyone trying to abuse the state of inevitable fragility Vox Controli happens to be at this moment. The nation of Vox Controli is no longer a threat to any other civilization - and as such, shall not be threatened either. From now on, Vox Controli is under protection of the Legoland empire. ZargonX, The President of Legoland vondrack, FAM of Legoland

I have no problem to drop my signature - I just thought that signing my text with Zargon's name only would be sort of weird. But I am sure that if he does not mind, it would look better with his name only.

	08-08-2003 18:22									#201
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Hey, that sounds great!

Maybe we could sign it: "The Senate of Legoland".

(I can already see the "strategists" of GS scratching their heads, thinking heavily: "What that means? Where does this lead? What shall we do? ..." Hehe)

	08-08-2003 18:26									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Maybe we could sign it: "The Senate of Legoland".

I think this is an excellent idea!

"We" I used in the text makes much more sense this way!

	08-08-2003 19:50									#203
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Looks good, Vondrack. And I think signing it with the Senate is a great idea, as well. Though, I think we should hold off putting it up in the public forum until we have informed GoW and ND of what it means. We want to keep GS guessing, not our allies

	08-08-2003 19:54									#204
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Agreed - I would PM both teams to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

	09-08-2003 06:17									#205
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Message good, senate signature good, PMs good.

	09-08-2003 22:09									#206
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An update from Beta:

quote: Greetings vondrack and citizens of Lego! Vox Controli is getting re-established, thanks to your nation. Again - we want to express our gratitude for giving us Legos Minor, for establishing a city, and for protecting it during the Voxodus. You are generous and noble neighbours and we vow to repay you for your generosity and friendship. And as stated earlier - we will never cross you in this game. So - to business. We are now a Republic - and a proud one at that. We have 8 cities - more than Vox has ever had. With a ninth on its way via galley. Our cashflow is OK, and we will repay the remaining 70 gold we owe you next turn. Thank you again for the financing. Just too bad it didn't work out. Oh well. Maybe next time. We are busy optimizing the use of the land that our Island has to offer. We will make it work- harbors are a priority right now. Along with some libraries. By the way - I hope you are not offended but we have renamed the island 'Voxtavia'. We will send you an in-game map soon as well and you will see the names of the new cities. The capitol remains The New Voice as you have named it. Also - a word of thanks to vondrack for the city site plan. After review by our team - we could not improve upon it - so the city sites will be familiar to you. Trust all is well with Lego! Regards ... Beta.

The gold comes at the right moment...

	09-08-2003 22:21									#207
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Yes, the gold will be really nice right now.

Though I take Vox at their word about "not crossing us" (odd term however), I wonder if their opinion would change any if they found out that we just founded our 14th city in comparison to their current 8. (Just as well that they don't find out our strength until perhaps after we have settled most of our area )

	10-08-2003 01:39									#208
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I suggest we replace "Legos Minor" with "Voxtavia" in our PA.

Yes, the gold will be a big help.

	25-08-2003 09:50									#209
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The sea to the NE of Voxtavia needs to be explored. But if there is land, any huts there will be of minimal value (except for the possibility of a free settler), and we would not want the land for ourselves, even if we did get a settler.

So, I was thinking, why should we even bother to explore it at all? Vox would be the one to settle the land anyway, and could make good use of a free settler. They have galleys from the Great Crossing, so they can easily explore the area themselves if we gift them Education and Astronomy. We could just ask for their WM after exploration.

	04-09-2003 00:49									#210
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Just to keep all of you informed:

Voxes were contacted by Velocyrix of GS. In brief, he proposed that Voxes take advantage of the chaos on Bob and attack GoW possessions on the Mystery Isle (alias Baby Bob).

It goes without saying that Voxes will never do anything like that for real - as they very well know where Lego stands in this war. But there would be the possibility of staging an attack, actually arranging a deal with GoW (if GoW agrees, of course)... we all know how good Voxes are in staging things... They might be able to gather intelligence then, especially regarding the timing of any major GS offensives on Bob (as those would likely be coordinated with the actions of Voxes).

I'm not sure about how to handle this situation - and would like to hear your ideas.

So?