15-02-2003 23:41									#1
	DIPLO: GoW comments Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's official... War has broken out between ND and Lux in this turn (1700 BC), but the Vultures have gladly joined the fight as well...
http://apolyton.com/forums/showthre...044#post1731044
GF blames it on a broken treaty with Lux, but it's entirely possible that that is but a poor excuse in order to get their weapons cleaned up.

Do any of you see diplomatic messages we need to send? If not, I advise that everyone stays as far from the conflict as possible, certainly not bonding with any team (also not against Trip, even if we're supposed to trash his ass). I think this means the end of Trip's team, with one possible exception: they saved a lot of cash, so they will have many swordmen to play with.

BTW, Is there a GoW diplo log yet? I didn't saw that, nor a previous comments thread, so decided to start one.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 00:20									#2
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Agreed emphatically! Let's keep ourselves personally well clear of this mess. Someone is going to lose and things could get nasty. We would not want any mud to cling to us in the eyes of the survivors.

	16-02-2003 00:24									#3
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I was wondering: GoW declared that they got int othe war because of a broken deal from Lux. I very strongly doubt that that happened this turn, so it must be an excuse. But, so far, Lux hasn't complained, so either the are guilty as charged, or this is all a Jerry Springer show: A lot of screaming and no real serious fights happening. What if Lux used some cash to get GoW in on the war, on their side? If I was going to hire GoW, I too would ask of them that they first of all say they are declaring war on us, but instead that they attack us, they simply pass our units towards the front.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 00:33									#4
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DeepO, very tricky. But is that lying?

	16-02-2003 00:39									#5
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Well... it's a thin line for sure. With the right attention, it should be possible to leave all the lying for GoW, while we keep our honorable face.
But Lux doesn't seem to have any problem to use deceipt, so it can always be true in the current situation. So far, there has been very little public unrest after GF declared war on Lux, I was wondering what is happening.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 01:31									#6
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No team promised never to lie.

	16-02-2003 16:15									#7
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Any possibilities for us to get something from this working "behind the scenes" ?

	16-02-2003 17:18									#8
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Alva, I think we would burn our fingers if we try to get something accomplished behind the scenes. Very indirectly, we can influence the outcome by choosing our partners for future deals, by trying to buy techs from the weakest civs. But any more is very likely to backfire, this is a very tense situation, and people are going to remember if someone crossed them or not. Let's stay friendly to everyone, not advantaging any party in this conflict.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 17:56									#9
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True, it would be a very thin line to thread...

Let's just sit back and see how things develop

	16-02-2003 19:11									#10
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Another message from GF, with a report on his military relation to the other teams. Typical, to give this kind of info to us, but somewhat naive

So, ND is the big player, huh? I guess they have been saving cash for a while too... as they are expansionist, they could have traded hut-techs to the others, if they found enough huts.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 19:21									#11
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GF is sending us screenshots? Please, let's hope they're different from the one posted by Trip. I would never solicit such a gift, without at least having some shot of getting in return. GF sure is a nice ambassador to talk to

DeepO

	16-02-2003 19:24									#12
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It is a pity they are fighting two against one...

Once Lux is gone, they stand to win more then to loose fighting this war. It's a pity we don't have a way to prolong it.
I hope RP tries to backstab one of the others.

	16-02-2003 19:32									#13
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I'm not sure... I just saw a message posted from GF (on the general forum) that he won't post screenshots... but that message was dated 5 minutes before he offered it to us.

Maybe we should offer them a loan, so that ND doesn't get too much in front. Lux is probably toast anyway

DeepO

	16-02-2003 19:42									#14
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First screenie sent was the same as the one ND already posted in their foreign office. GF is still searching for some other, I hope it's not the same as Lux already posted

I also hope he'll hurry up, I've got to leave in 10 minutes.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 22:35									#15
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It certainly sounds like Lux is toast based on the military strength comparisons. I have to wonder what Lux was thinking; did they figure they could count on ND not to view the death of a scout as worth fighting over?

	16-02-2003 22:47									#16
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Man, I wish there was some way we could stop this war, or perhaps strengthen Lux in order to turn what would seem like a swift victory into a trench war (a very favorable position for us).
Perhaps if GoW are lying, and they were actually bribed by Lux and are going to surprise-attack ND, there is a chance for a favorable outcome for us.

	17-02-2003 02:40									#17
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I hate it when that happens- war when i'm taking a leave

Anyway, i'll try to catch up ASAP. DeepO's right- let's stay out of this for a while- and sniff around. This a pretty early war for humans, and i'm glad we're not involved, and in a comfortable position to stay that way. Involvment by us right now is not the way to go- Lux did earn its current grim position on its on, by what RPG said (and if GoW and LI are pulling a trick on the world).

Anyway- there couldn't be a better chance for us to strengthen our ties with RPG, have them spill some intel, and maybe make friends with those who are winning. All in all, this war sure hasn't caught us unprepared, i trust our diplos to get the hang of crisis management.

	17-02-2003 03:04									#18
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I just sent a letter to GF, saying i'm sorry for being away, asking how the war is going and praising GoW in a fair measure. I also asked him what are their objective in war with Lux- hopefully he provides us with something to work on wnen trying to figure out who's with who and what for.

	17-02-2003 15:38									#19
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GF is asking me personally whether we intend to make an offer for HBR. I will tell him that we are considering it and enquire as to its value to them. I don't see any comment about that, hense this post.

I think we need to reply to that issue soon. I will say nothing that could be construed as a commitment.

	17-02-2003 16:41									#20
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As I thought, GF used the opportunity to attempt to dredge information from me. Considering how much chat goes on out there we must seem like a very large black hole of knowledege. I am happy with that. Let them think that Dragons be there.

Here are the pertinent bits of the log. I'm not positive what all may be important so I have been liberal with what I quote:

[03:33] {GhengisFarb} Is your team gonna make us an offer for Hb R?
[03:33] {GeneralTacticus} Who? RP?
[03:33] {GeneralTacticus} No idea.
[03:34] {GhengisFarb} No, GS
[03:34] {notyoueither_devil} good question. did you approach our ambassador?
[03:34] {GhengisFarb} Yep, but no info back, said it ws posted in your forum

[03:34] {notyoueither_devil} let me check...

[03:36] {notyoueither_devil} Thread posted recently. I am looking at it...

[03:46] {notyoueither_devil} ... back

[03:54] {GhengisFarb} How are GS relations with Vox?
[03:54] {notyoueither_devil} speaking.

[04:00] {notyoueither_devil} anyways GF, we are looking at HBR. What is it worth to you?

[04:00] {GhengisFarb} I have no idea what your team has to offer, thanks to the new Multiplayer negotiations screen
[04:01] {GeneralTacticus} Well, espionage would be quite easy if you could see it, wouldn't it?
[04:01] {GhengisFarb} You could see what the AI had to offer
[04:01] {GeneralTacticus} Yes, but this isn't the AI.
[04:02] {GeneralTacticus} You don't need to know what they ahve to negotiate.
[04:02] {GhengisFarb} Make us an offer nye, we don't know what you have to offer.
[04:03] {[GOW]Hot_Enamel} Try using RP's negotiation tactics GD .... 1000gold
[04:03] {[GOW]Hot_Enamel} GD = GF
[04:03] {GhengisFarb} Do you have any techs? LOL that's adaMada's only price
[04:03] {GhengisFarb} Territory map, 1000 gold
[04:03] {notyoueither_devil} ok. i will relay that to the team. you only want tech.
[04:03] {GhengisFarb} World map, another 1000 gold
[04:04] {GhengisFarb} If you don't have tech we don't have do you have gold?

[04:05] {notyoueither_devil} we have this funny yellow stuff that our peasants dig out of the ground.
[04:05] {GhengisFarb} Offer us what you have available, typically tech is preferable, then gold, then popcorn.

[04:05] {GeneralTacticus} Are you quite sure you should be discussing this when a member of another team is present and logging?
[04:05] {GhengisFarb} Popcorn is a last resort, right before beads.

[04:05] {GeneralTacticus} Or is this some kind of psychological warfare plot against RP?
[04:05] {The-Evangelion-Freak} GT: They might be giving him false information, remember that
[04:05] {The-Evangelion-Freak} Exactly
[04:06] {GhengisFarb} Why? Is this a declaration of war or something?
[04:06] {GeneralTacticus} Hell it could be both.

[04:06] {[GOW]Hot_Enamel} Oh yes please -- I lwould love another war
[04:06] {The-Evangelion-Freak} And even if they wouldn't be misinforming him, the mere chance of them doing that renders any logs useless
[04:06] {notyoueither_devil} I would bid 1 quatloo, but I'm not sure i could scare it up right now.

[04:08] {GhengisFarb} Just offer us gold, nye
[04:09] {[GOW]Hot_Enamel} Replaceable Parts will be finished in 3 turns
[04:09] {GeneralTacticus} Okay, that decides it.
[04:09] {GhengisFarb} THAT would work, Replaceable Parts for Horseback Riding
[04:09] {GeneralTacticus} This si definitely some kind of elaborate plot.

[04:09] {GhengisFarb} Deal.

[04:11] {[GOW]Hot_Enamel} ?? Did [GOW]HotEnamel just agree to sell Replaceable Parts to [GOW]Ghengisfarg for HBR ???

Last edited by notyoueither on 17-02-2003 at 16:47

	17-02-2003 16:54									#21
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Strange chat... GT is a RP man, no? If so, I'd rather have it that nothing at all was mentioned, RP wanted to sell us HBR as well.

DeepO

	17-02-2003 17:06									#22
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I suppose I may have muddled where I did not belong, but GF was making no secret of thier desire to sell that tech to us. I rather thought that we might benefit from a reverse bidding war. No? However, I will admit it was not my place to plunge ahead, even though I intended to say nothing.

	17-02-2003 17:12									#23
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Not much harm has been done, but I think that in all future communication, we need to keep diplo contacts private... this was an awkward situation.

I could use this conversation as a way of negotiating price, but it won't look good if I now tell RP: no, we have another way of getting the tech, but we're not going to tell you from where we're getting it. (BTW, Vox may sell it to us too.)

DeepO

	17-02-2003 17:16									#24
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You could just say that we have more than one opportunity to obtain the tech. You never know, we might get HBR for 20 gold.

BTW, did RP tell us they have HBR available? Togas' menu had Warrior Code on it. That was before we could see HBR.

	17-02-2003 17:51									#25
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Vox will give us HBR if we want it, but due to the circumstances they got it under, I'd rather fillibuster a bit before we do anything. Basically, I think our stance should be that we aren't in a hurry and we're hoping for a good opportunity to get it as part of a bigger deal. If we can get it on terms we like (e.g. Code of Laws or Philosophy for HBR + gold), we trade for it to another team. If we reach a point where we want it and we don't have it yet, we can ask Vox to give it to us then.

Nathan

	17-02-2003 17:55									#26
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Why wouldn't we ask Vox to give it to us? Have I missed something?

	17-02-2003 18:09									#27
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Vox was presented with a "By accepting the deal in-game, you agree not to trade Horseback Riding to Gathering Storm," diplomatic message accompanying the deal they got Horseback Riding through. Vox never sent a response agreeing to the condition, but they did click accept, so our getting Horseback Riding from them right away could cause an interesting diplomatic situation. Vox doesn't seem to be all that concerned about the possible diplomatic ramifications if they give us HBR, but I'm sort of inclined to think they should be, and not getting HBR from Vox right away also may help provide some cover for our deal with Vox. (You can check the Vox ambassador's office thread for more details of what happened.)

Nathan

	17-02-2003 18:22									#28
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Sorry, forgot about that . If we wait for a while people will forget about it. .

We don't really want to give gold to GoW ATM, do we? (and thereby helping them indirectly in their war against Lux. )

	17-02-2003 19:12									#29
	Put an end to popups!

The only way I'd go for getting Horseback Riding from anyone but Vox is if what we give is a tech (or conceivably a luxury) and what we get involves more than just Horseback Riding.

	18-02-2003 03:41									#30
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HBR can wait, its price will hit rock bottom by the time we need it, so there is no point in adding a few coppers to a foreign coffer for it, nor risking a diplomatic incident. We will get it some day, maybe from Vox, when we no longer care for it to be discovered, or whatever.


Maybe HBR can be included in a broad deal with RP, what do you think?