18-02-2003 04:44									#31
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Last message from GF contained a lot of info, and I doubt how much of it is true.

quote: What we know is: ND has 3 cities, a stack of 4 Swordsmen and 1 Spearman plus additional troops in its cities.

And this military is twice the strength of GoW? Our 8 warriors and 1 spear ain't that bad.

quote: Lux has two cities, 1 Spearman, and 3-4 Warriors, period.

So they really are picking on the smallest guy. We've got 5 cities, Lux has 2 left and will spend the rest of its game life building up forces, and defending. I'm not counting on them being gone in the next couple of turns, if they are able to upgrade their warriors. But of course, they need iron for that, without it they're lost.

Another thought: we've got 5 cities, ND has 3, and at most can take another 2 from Lux. There is no chance of them becoming a superpower soon, they will most certainly lag us, and probably RP as well.

quote: Of all the units only one of ND's Swordsmen was a Veteran while all the rest (to our knowledge), both ND and Lux were either Regular or Conscript.

No barracks for Lux, and some units gained from a hut. ND has one barracks, together with their temple they spent quite a lot on infrastructure. If we were going to war, we would have build 2 barracks, and forget about the temple, plus cities would be attacked with a bit more punch, I hope.

quote: Vox is currently researching Polytheism, ND - Mathematics/Construction, Roleplay - Literature?, and we are researching Mapmaking.

If I got Trip right, GoW was going to trade mathematics for mysticism, for which Trip became angry as GoW was the middleman. Tech deals on the continent are messy.

DeepO

	19-02-2003 03:28									#32
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quote: If I got Trip right, GoW was going to trade mathematics for mysticism, for which Trip became angry as GoW was the middleman. Tech deals on the continent are messy.

Just another reason for promoting our codex, especially with RP(which i presume that is disgusted just as we do from the childish gameplay of "you screwed me first, then i screwed you" that Lux, GoW, and perhaps ND as well were all playing.

I thought Nathan wanted to re-phrase it, but he got busy with Economical issues. I can do it myself, if Nathan thinks he won't be able to handle that for the time being, but of course, i can't do it as well as he does...

	19-02-2003 07:29									#33
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Loan em money.

	19-02-2003 22:54									#34
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I drafted a message that our ambassador could relay to GoW on my behalf if the team approves it. (No, I don't want to hijack another ambassadorship, but there are times when a message from an economist regarding economic matters makes sense.)

quote: Greetings to the People of Glory of War, As chief economist of Gathering Storm, I have asked our ambassador to relay this message to you to clarify our trade position. If we would make a purchase with gold, that would undercut our own research capacity, and therefore our ability to obtain technologies that we could trade or sell ourselves. Since we have no immediate need for what you currently have to offer, and since you do not have a monopoly on any of it (as best we can tell), we do not view that as an attractive proposition. Therefore, strictly within the game mechanics, there is no real possibility of a deal at this time - at least not unless the price would be so low as to be essentially ludicrous. That does not, however, mean that we are not interested in trading. We are perfectly willing, as long as we regard a prospective partner as trustworthy, to negotiate deals in advance of when they can actually be completed. If our current research projects are different, and if you would be interested, we could go ahead and start discussing a possible exchange involving those projects. If that does not appeal to you, rest assured that we will approach you regarding the possible sale of our current research project as it gets closer to completion. I’m sorry that the situation is not more favorable for a deal at present, but I hope you can understand our position. Sincerely, Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist of Gathering Storm

	19-02-2003 23:19									#35
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fine by me

DeepO

	20-02-2003 00:33									#36
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Same here.
No point in stalling, as we don't want to irritate them, and we're not interested in this tech in the short run anyway; besides, we want to give them a good first (and hopefully, continuing) impression.
Tough luck for GoW, they told Vox that they'd make the deal only if they didn't sell us HBR and now they can't sell it themselves.

	02-03-2003 06:40									#37
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Zeit, some comments on the deal. First of all, I was never in favor of getting the guarantee, and I can imagine that GoW needs the money too hard. I don't consider it any problem to simply get their promise, if that suits them, I'm willing to consider them honorable. I don't know if this opinion is shared with other members, but for me, you could negotiate away until you simply accept their word of honor, instead of 100 or 150 gold. The chance of blowing the MM deal is not worth it, we need MM, and the risk of GoW crossing us is low, IMHO.

Further, be careful with the other issues. You are very right in separating the other questions from them. I can understand they want a 10-turns no-whoring agreement, but it wouldn't be in our favor. This is the only part that needs to be discussed before the tech deal, so keep on making two deals out of everything they proposed.
I'm not sure if we have to agree, but 10 turns is not that bad... GoW will discover MM within 5 turns, add 10 to that, and we can still give it to both Lux and Vox well before the 20 turn limit Lux asked for. If possible, I want to let this one slip, or get a guarantee from GoW that we will be the first to receive the tech, and that negotiations start immediate after them discovering it (notice they say they will give it to us, but not when).

Also ask for clarification: if we sign a fixed 10 turn NDA with GoW, does this mean we give CoL, they wait 20 turns to give us MM, they can sell CoL within 10 turns, and we can't sell MM until turn 30? Not a good deal, if they get a future tech, they should keep to our duration... which means the NDA ends for both techs at the same turn. (in the example, 30 turns from now)

I would exchange things here: let them have CoL without guarantee, if this mean we can either shorten the NDA to 5 turns, and/or we get the promise that they won't trade it to anyone else before our deal is completed. Try something like: "we trust you with our tech, didn't ask for a non-whore deal, so give us some slack as well". Don't make it too obvious, though, they shouldn't expect that we have a deal for MM already.

As to settling (so deal #2): we can't promise this, as long as we don't know the continent. And, no way are we going to give away our worldmap. This creates a bit of a problem situation, so we need something else: we could e.g. promise to not settle a new city closer then 5 tiles from any of their cities, if they do the same for us. Normally, there is one turn delay between landing a settler and settling, so that leaves 1 turn time for them to warn us if we are within 5 tiles, which can be proven by a screenshot. We can do the same.

5-tiles from any of their cities should be enough to cover any 'small' continent, it will cover all our future territory. If they need more, they no longer have a small continent compared to us, hence no need to be paranoid about us settling there.

why we need to include a deal on HBR, for 30 gold no less, in the CoL-MM deal is beyond me, so tell them. Atm, we are not interested in the HBR technology, and can't commit to buy it exclusively from them. You could tell them we had some other offers for it, which were better, and we also refused those.

Re: Lux having a city on our continent: do not ever answer to that, even if they only asked if they purchased a city from us (which we could honestly say isn't true). Ignore it, if they are really curious, they'll ask again. focus on the other deals first.

Re: political update: sure, if they want to. We would be very interested in hearing their version, to compare it with what we heared from other sources. Let them know there are others telling their side of the story, so they will be inclined to less lie, and be more objective. Plus, they won't consider it that bad we don't tell more then the obvious, general info to them.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 07:23									#38
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Copying my comments on GoW's proposal here so we can deal with it all in one place:

One thing we definitely need to do is make it clear that agreeing to deals and then changing the terms at the last minute is not a good way to build trust. Also, regarding Horseback Riding, tell them that as they should know from single-player play, no deal paying gold for a tech can be considered "cheap" if it is possible to get the same tech thrown into another deal with someone else for free, so our reasons for not wanting to buy Horseback Riding for gold still stand.

I'll contact BetaHound and ask if Vox is okay with waiting ten turns after we get it before we hand Map Making over to them. If so, that lets us accept the "no whoring" stipulation. (We can make any excuse we want to, but if GoW sees Vox with Map Making right after they gave it to us, they'll very definitely view it as tech whoring and thus as a violation of our deal with them. That would not be a good move on our part!)

Regarding world maps, tell them that we prefer not to reveal our world map and have no particular reason to do so at this time. And I would suggest that we agree not to settle on Northern Bob during the timeframe mentioned, contingent on GoW's representation of the land availability situation being accurate. Also make it clear that in any case, we have no interest in settling in crowded areas where our presence is likely to be unwelcome.

Getting 100 gold instead of 150 isn't a huge problem; we agreed in principle that we would accept a smaller amount if necessary when we made our proposal.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 08:01									#39
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And now, trying to reconcile my views with DeepO's:

(1) We need to make it clear that the agreement is for them to initiate the Map Making part of the deal as soon as they get Map Making.

(2) Propose that the "no tech whoring" provision for both techs last until ten turns after we get Map Making or fifteen turns after they get Code of Laws, whichever comes sooner. (Ideally, it would be good to get Vox's approval before we accept such a provision.) I don't like the idea of trying to ask for a shorter NTW (No Tech Whoring) agreement because it would almost certainly make them suspicious.

(3) In our view, the Horseback Riding deal is a completely separate issue and should have nothing to do with this trade. We're willing to agree not to buy Horseback Riding from anyone else at a price greater than or equal to thirty gold if they agree to keep their offer open, but that's as far as we're willing to go. (And if we can get it cheaper, the price they're offering is obviously not the bargain they claim it is. )

(4) Tell them that we have no interest in settling in a crowded area where our presence would be unwelcome, but that we do not currently view an exchange of maps as in our best interest. We are willing to agree not to settle northern Bob during the specified time frame so long as their description proves to be reasonably accurate, and we are content to take their word until such a time as we have absolute confirmation. In exchange, however, we would expect them to agree not to build any cities on our continent lest they add to the crowding we and Vox already face.

I agree with remaining silent about Lux for the moment.

And I still think we should remind them that seeming to agree to a deal (as GhengisFarb's message did) and then trying to add numerous conditions at the last minute is not the ideal way to build trust.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 14:34									#40
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I pretty much agree with Nathan- i'l copy my post here as well:

I also think there is another an important consideration, besides the obvious details of the trade:

After this trade, our relation with the BOB teams will likely decrease- they will also be less interested, as tension are rising to dangerous levels. I don't think it would hurt us that bad, in the long run, even if we "give" Vox MM, and later on explain the situation to GoW. After all, things are not going to be as warm and pleasant as they were, not when the mother of all wars might break loose, and people will have to pick sides. (Do not forget we already have-, in their eyes-, i'm sure- after they find out about LI)

	02-03-2003 14:40									#41
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quote: And I still think we should remind them that seeming to agree to a deal (as GhengisFarb's message did) and then trying to add numerous conditions at the last minute is not the ideal way to build trust.

Nathan, read my reply- i think cynicaly reminding them of that "misunderstanding" would do the job.

I hope Hot_Enamel has some sense of humor, though. I wouldn't want to hurt his pride- he is one of those responsible for that counter-proposal. I hope you guys give your authorization for this outline, because i'd really hate to see this deal go down the drain, or stalled again.

	02-03-2003 15:21									#42
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Isn't there any other normal team in this game,sjjjjeeeesh.

How about we agree to the non settlin part in exchance for HBR (or maybe some gold).
-
The NTW indeed should begin when the first tech is discovered/offered, not when the second one is offered.

Either we sit on Col until they have MM, or the NTW is 5 turns shorter fur us.

Or they compensate us fot it somehow.

	02-03-2003 15:35									#43
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Zeit, good job calling attention to our concerns about how they are handling this. Unfortunatley, unless they revoke their additional stipulations, we'll still need to address them, and I'd really like to get the deals completed quickly.

Does anyone not regard my previous post (trying to reconcile my views with DeepO's, at least more or less) as providing a good framework for a counter-offer?

Nathan

	02-03-2003 16:17									#44
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quote: (4) Tell them that we have no interest in settling in a crowded area where our presence would be unwelcome, but that we do not currently view an exchange of maps as in our best interest. We are willing to agree not to settle northern Bob during the specified time frame so long as their description proves to be reasonably accurate, and we are content to take their word until such a time as we have absolute confirmation. In exchange, however, we would expect them to agree not to build any cities on our continent lest they add to the crowding we and Vox already face.

Although we have no interest in settling the northern part of BOB, there is no reason we should share that info woth GoW.
Apparently they think we are, why not take advantage of this.

	02-03-2003 16:19									#45
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Take advantage of it how?

	02-03-2003 16:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by alva Isn't there any other normal team in this game,sjjjjeeeesh.

Nope. We're all pleasantly disturbed

I'm not sure on the HBR - no settlement deal, they will certainly argue that them not settling near to us is just as valuable as us not settling near to them. Further, the way they are practically demanding it doesn't sound nice either, I'm half sure they have more territory then us, just don't use it that efficiently. Didn't Trip say somewhere that neither GoW nor ND had a coastal city yet? we've got 3...

I more or less agree on what Nathan said, however I'd like to get a clause in that we think they are demanding from the wrong perspective, in that our space is more limited then theirs, so it should be us demanding to keep all other civs off our continent, instead of them. But also tell them we know what kind of diplomatic tension a 'beachhead' would bring, and we don't intend on risking our spotless reputation.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 16:45									#47
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We don't have enough concrete information to be sure that our space is more limited than theirs. I'd be inclined to word it more like,

"We find it ironic that you are the ones complaining about a limited land area when, especially after your joint campaign against Lux, you and ND probably share more land than we and Vox do. Nonetheless, we recognize that your reaction to a Stormian city near your lands would most likely be just as negative as our reaction to a foreign city on our continent would. So assuming your representation of the situation proves to be reasonably accurate, we agree not to settle on northern Bob if you agree not to settle on our continent. We are not, however, interested in exchanging maps; we are willing to accept your word unless and until we have reason not to, and we have nothing to prove that would necessitate giving up our own map."

	02-03-2003 16:59									#48
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If I understand the finesses of this, we are not promising to not settle, but only say that we won't, unless they lie to us, no? Also, why are we protecting the Voxian lands, and are they protecting the ND lands? I'd rather have a 'don't settle too close' deal instead of a 'don't settle on our continent' deal.

BTW, do we need an expiration date?

DeepO

	02-03-2003 17:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Take advantage of it how?

Somekind of compensation.
Even not settling our continent might do, as long as it sounds as if we are doing them a favour, IE that their gain is bigger then ours.

	02-03-2003 17:14									#50
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They already proposed an expiration date, so we ought to insert the same date in our counter-proposal. Yes, I did choose a wording where our promise is valid only if they aren't lying to us about the situation. My impression is that they are including ND lands as well as their own in the area not to be settled, which would justify us in protecting Voxian lands. And "keep off our continent" is both simpler and less informative than trying to explain what parts of the continent we regard as belonging to us would be.

	02-03-2003 17:58									#51
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On the "keep off our continent" clause: I was thinking, do we really want GoW not to settle any Voxian lands? If they would, Vox needs to deal with them, thus there is not really a problem for us, I thought. hence my "don't settle within 5 tiles of one of our cities" agreement.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 18:06									#52
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Oh... and I don't know if we need to delay the turn before we get an arrangement with GoW. There are going to be at least 2 more turns before RP has CoL, and because they now they are going to get it, nothing stops them from negotiating a deal with GoW now.

What is certain is that we need to make this deal with GoW asap, so let's get on with this:

Proposed minimum deal to GoW:
1) we give you CoL now, no guarantee other then your word of honor
2) You trade MM to us the moment you discover it, in exchange of 30 gold
3) there is, at GoW request, a No-whoring treaty involved, of 15 turns after giving CoL, or 10 turns after MM, whichever comes first.
4) this deal is no longer negotiable after signing

Then we can start on a next deal, involving settlemnet plans, future deals, maps, etc.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 18:18									#53
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The thing I dislike about a "within five tiles" agreement is that it's tied to information that's not readily available in-game. Also, I suspect that there's former Luxian land that GoW definitely wants to protect its right to settle but doesn't have a city within five tiles of at present. And in any case, I can see someone trying to settle our lands for the incense, but why would anyone from Bob send settlers to Voxian lands where they'd likely end up getting in a fight over totally corrupt jungle?

	02-03-2003 18:21									#54
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Why give up the 100 gold guarantee? Also, I suspect that the Map Making deal will go through more quickly if we do go ahead and settle the settling matter at the same time.

	02-03-2003 19:49									#55
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5 tiles: before we should be able to send a settler their way, they should have settled it already, or the land is simply to big for them to make those demands. Further, in principle we don't need any information outside what we can't see: the moment we land, GoW can warn us we're too close, and need to move on.

100 gold guarantee: why do we need it? I would ask for it, but we need some bargaining chip, and this can be it... I can imagine it's for them the part that upset them most: if I got it right, they are offering MM to Lux for 40 gold, if we are offering the equivalent of 180 gold they will certainly value their techs differently.

For us, the 30 gold difference between CoL and MM is good enough, but keep in mind that this is 30 gold for 48 beakers, we are paying them over 60% of first-researcher's cost. That's a lot... they can operate on more like 25% normally, which makes 150, or even 100 gold for CoL a lot, worth more then what they would buy the tech for...

Combining deals: I don't think it will be faster, for the simple reason that there we need to ratify it. A no settlement deal should be polled in our forum, while the CoL-MM was already decided (at least, nobody complained).

DeepO

	02-03-2003 20:15									#56
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quote: if I got it right, they are offering MM to Lux for 40 gold, if we are offering the equivalent of 180 gold they will certainly value their techs differently.

So why don't we buy it from Lux and split the difference...

	02-03-2003 22:13									#57
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Re: Lux-GoW and MM:
Havn't they agreed to buy that from us?.

HotE did mention they are working on a trade with Lux- including peace.

Check their new reply- HotE confirmed my earlier suspiciouns- GoW is not inclined towards warfare, and they didn't take the war seriously. He also partially apologized for the mistake- with a bit of guilty feelings, i suppose. So no point in giving the guarantee, we could use it for a loan or something.

I'll go ahead and offer HotE a 100 guarantee deal, also with that offer Nathan wrote regarding settling BOB and WM trade.
Hopefully, GoW will just grab it and won't ask for too much, not after their latest glitch. As for the rest of the deal, i'll tell him these issues are negotiable, but not in this deal...

Last edited by zeit on 02-03-2003 at 22:32

	02-03-2003 22:17									#58
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quote: 1. Where did Lux go ?

Maybe we should leak somewhere (unofficially), we didn't give Lux a safe haven. ("Drop" it in the chatroom orso )

quote: I can also tell you that peace with Lux could be close at hand. We are still on talking terms with them and are close to closing a tech deal which includes peace.

GoW is giving tech to Lux????? or vice versa?

quote: And finally, I would like to ask what the iron situation is on your continent. We have a supply, but it is close to the ND border, and we could lose it. Our team is looking at trying to secure a safe 2nd source from another civ.

This one is mighty interesting.

	02-03-2003 22:39									#59
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I guess we could offer them CoL for 100 gold this turn (we can't delay this anymore, I fear that RP will "change their minds" about this deal too).
The iron is very interesting indeed. Perhaps we should start thinking about settling the iron city site south of Dissidentville earlier than we planned, if only for its trade value (if not to GoW, then to someone else).
Regarding the map trade, we should reply with a strict 'not interested', but we need to be careful not to imply by this that Lux has found a safe haven in our continent and we are trying to keep that in secret (meaning, we need to provide other, preferably convincing excuses for why we do not wish to trade maps at the moment).
Regarding the sale of HBR, I really don't see how we are committed in any way to buying HBR from GoW. If RP or ND can make a better offer, we'll take it, and GoW should realize that and then make us an offer that could compete with whatever RP and ND could offer.
Another interesting bit is GoW telling us that they are REXing. This is good news - it will leave their economy (and ND's, assuming that they are REXing as well to fill the same gap) further behind.
Finally, I suggest that we don't tell GoW anything that we'd like to keep confidential, since apparently they like to trade secrets.

	02-03-2003 22:58									#60
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Anyway, we need to tie all the loose ends and offer CoL for Lit to RP and CoL for 100 gold to GoW this turn. Delaying this deal even further is a bad idea IMHO (look where delaying it by one turn got us to), and we don't want to hold the save for too long and break the 24 hours law.