07-03-2003 01:44									#91
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It's a bold idea, Shiber, and I like it (although our generals won't, I'm sure ), but right now we're not able to trade iron with GoW, and by the time we are able, we maybe can't keep our promise because we need the iron to deal with Vox.

Yes, GoW needs iron, and if we can, we should trade it to them for at least a limited amount of time. But although the benefits for us might be bigger, they should not be forced in a too depending relation with us, they might not like it

DeepO

	07-03-2003 02:18									#92
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The proposed message to GoW certainly changed a lot over night... what about explaining to them now that we did knew where Lux went, but were bound by secrecy.

Why not just tell it as it is (more or less).
We weren't happy having Lux here (initially), but were not prepared/willing to go to war with Vox over this.

	07-03-2003 02:22									#93
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Still, we shouldn't leave them hanging IMHO. We should tell them our idea, and when that idea becomes a possibility, they will remember us.
What does the ambassador to GoW think of this?

	07-03-2003 02:32									#94
	Remove this text

Unless GoW asks more directly, my inclination is to keep our role in the Lux situation silent. There's no need to call attention to our involvement.

If GoW does ask, or if we feel a need to explain on our own, we might respond with something along the lines of, "Vox sprung their plan to bring Lux to our continent without our approval. Once it was presented to us as a fait accompli, we decided to live with it (and try to get some advantage out of the situation for ourselves) rather than risk an escallation of tensions, and possibly even war, with Vox."

	07-03-2003 02:52									#95
	Inflate your Upload Space

IIRC two teams already have asked us regarding LUX (ND and GoW (RP too?) )

If we keep silent, they will draw conclusing based on what other teams have said and rumours.

Just a small explination might be in order here IMHO.

quote: "Vox sprung their plan to bring Lux to our continent without our approval. Once it was presented to us as a fait accompli, we decided to live with it (and try to get some advantage out of the situation for ourselves) rather than risk an escallation of tensions, and possibly even war, with Vox."

This will do fine

	07-03-2003 04:01									#96
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Do we need to tell we tried to get some advantages out of it as well?

DeepO

	07-03-2003 04:07									#97
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hmm, perhaps slightly rephrasing it...

"looking into the possibilities of lux beeing here..."

"While trying to keep neutrality!!"
this should be added IMO

	07-03-2003 04:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Do we need to tell we tried to get some advantages out of it as well?

My idea in including that was that hopefully, other teams would respect our honesty and forthrightness in admitting that we were hoping for some benefit. If others don't think they will, we can take it out.

	07-03-2003 05:01									#99
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I know you were trying to be honest on something that will get out, but I would rather imply it, then make it something of intent. Telling it might make us sound opportunistic, while not telling only makes us secretive, and not liars.

DeepO

	07-03-2003 05:03									#100
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Okay, i'll send something in the spirit of things said here- regarding the Iron, as well as insight on the Lux-Vox affair.

Last edited by zeit on 07-03-2003 at 05:09

	07-03-2003 05:26									#101
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quote: I must say, that we did send a "nasty" PM off to Vox on the exact round they decided to wipe them out. Vox was basically ignoring our requests to sell them MM, yet Lux was all over us trying to dictate the terms as to how much they will pay for it. As I mentioned before, we finally decided to treat Lux & Vox as the same team, and we sent a PM to Vox telling them to stop using their Lux puppets in an attempt to get MM off us cheaply.

I already suspected this... GoW didn't know of the Vox/Lux relation in all details, in fact they based it on the wrong assumption: that Vox wanted to get MM from Lux. cute

quote: Throughout the war, we had many dealings with Lux, and at one stage, arranged for them to "lease" a safe city from us. We negotiated with ND and they finally agreed to "allow" us to do it. Unfortunately, Lux then disbanded their capital which infuriated ND, and we got a message from ND that they will hunt down every Lux city. Our deal was called off, and we thought Lux was finished.

So... Vox negotiated with GoW for a city, negotiated with ND to become a vassal, and finally went with Vox instead? Certainly a large diplomatic effort, too bad for them they made the worst choice.

quote: Anyway...I have shared some information to you, and would ask that you would do the same for us. We are interested in accessing a 2nd safe source of Iron as backup, if ND ever decides to attack. Do you have 2 sources of Iron ? If you do not, then I will no longer press this point any further, and we will look into other avenues.

Answer GoW on this one, expressing our concerns that the situation with Vox might create concerns, and we can't promise this... but are certainly interested in a trade if possible, as creating a stable GoW is also to our advantage, from what little info we know of the Bobian situation. It might even trigger even more info from them.

quote: I trust you got my PM that MM is available in 3 turns, and I am pleased to hear that ND has purchased CoL from yourself. They offered this information during our negotiation to sell them MM. I hope you got a good price.

I'm confused... didn't we tell them the situation got resolved? I'm not sure anymore... they should have heared it from us.

DeepO

	07-03-2003 21:09									#102
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Please comment on HotE's last message. I have to make sure they don't know the whole truth about us and Vox, as he's starting to make some speculation:

quote: perhaps the Vox-GS teams are a lot closer than we perceived ?

I thought of a proper anwser for this, i have tried to make it look like this "sharing" only had to do with the Luxian situation:

"For your question, regarding the share of money we got from Lux: Since Lux's arrival was unexpected nor approved by us. Lux arrival was viewed problematic, with possible negative consequences for us. Portia was a border town, when considering the diplomatic liability Lux's presence was for us as well, and their unstable nature added to our concern. With this in mind, we decided a compensation from Lux is in order, but since they have deposited all their money in the national bank of Vox Controli, Vox certainly sees it as sharing the gold with us"

We could just deny or ignore it, but i think this eventually works against us in this situation- this will only arouse their suspicion, i believe.

Also comment on the HBR and WM issues, these are important issues to GoW, and i think its only fair to finally address them.

	07-03-2003 21:36									#103
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consequences for us. Portia was a border town,

No need to tell them this.

why not tell we invested as much, as we got out of it...
-
Don't forget the note Nathan wrote.

	07-03-2003 21:49									#104
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Re: the "sharing" of the Luxian gold: Jon and his big mouth...
Zeit, I like your proposal for a response to this. We might even be able to improve it if we change some of the wording to hint to GoW that we were very upset with Lux, and maybe give HE the impression that we were going to "blow Vox's scheme". GoW would probably theorize that by blowing Vox's scheme, we mean expose their location or take Portia ourselves... exactly what we would want them to think, IMHO.

Re: trading iron for 1 turn: that's interesting news. I suggest that we tell them that we'd be very interested in such a trade (do we object to selling our only source of iron for just a single turn? I assume not, and I hope that I don't offend anyone who holds a different opinion with my assumption), and when it becomes possible to trade, we will get back to this idea.

Re: HBR: how about this for an answer: we have other arrangements for HBR which are very attractive, and "frankly", we did not want to insult them by asking if they'd offer anything lower than what we've already been offered. If they respond with "still, tell us what kind of offer would compete with the other offer?" we can reply with "10 gold for HBR". They may agree to this deal and they may not, but either case, we win IMHO.

Re: WM: I can't help but wonder why they are so interested in our WM... anyway, we can be very clear about this issue.

	07-03-2003 21:57									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

As to their question on how close we are: I wouldn't go in details, but ask them if they knew where Portia is located. That in itself is important information, although any team taking on Luxian will know it.

As to the gold: I more or less agree with what you said, however I wouldn't call Portia a border city, but a city that was closer to us then it was to any Voxian city. The tension part is ok, as long as it sounds like we got some of the gold (no details on how much) afterwards as a kind of compensation to not invade Portia.

HBR: keep telling that for the time being, we don't specifically need it, but if it can be included in a later deal, we would value it. Right now, it isn't worth spending money on, as we are the last to get it, and we don't need it until we're ready to go to the next age.

WM: "sorry, GS does not, and will never hand over its WM, as we believe in keeping our lands hidden for as long as possible. Only when forced will we trade our map away, and we don't think we'll get in the situation where we need to hand it over soon"

Further, ask what they are planning on researching next, to coordinate research plans.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 02:54									#106
	Remove this text

I don't think we should be so strong about our WM (in how we express it, I agree we shouldn't give it out). That might give the other teams ideas that they shouldn't be giving out their WM's...

	08-03-2003 05:09									#107
	Inflate your Upload Space

also true... maybe a more relaxed message is in order, as long as the stop nagging us about giving away our WM.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 05:59									#108
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re WM. I would say something like...

"We see no compelling reason to trade world maps at this point."

That says no without explaining why, and reduces the chance they will ask again soon.


re Vox and the Lux gold I would say something like...

"We try to maintain as good relations as we can, however there are many things that can cause stress between neighbours. Lux was one such stressful issue. We awoke one morning with a new neighbour. That neighbour has, or had, quite the reputation for mischief making. The gold we received was part of a pact to reduce tensions between Lux, Vox, and ourselves. It was part of the price we were paid to tolerate the presence of Lux in our lands."

That skirts the issue of our relations with Vox and answers the question of why we got gold. There is nothing untruthful in it, since the gold was part of the pact for Lux to stay a short while and tensions did increase.

	08-03-2003 06:19									#109
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"We had a warrior two turns outside Portia, which was undefended. Had we not been able to make arrangements through which Lux's existence on our continent became tolerable to us, either Vox would have had to attack us in order to prevent us from taking Portia, or they would have had to take Portia themselves if they did not want us to capture it. Both teams viewed it as better to find a more amicable solution to the situation, and that required that we get something out of the situation as compensation for the inconvenience and potential dangers Lux's presence brought with it."

Accurate without getting into the question of how good or bad our relations with Vox are regarding other matters.

	08-03-2003 16:14									#110
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Nathan- i think the note you suggest conveys a bit too much about our delicate situation- it doesn't explain why we got gold, since it tells the cold facts- we threatened, a settlment was reached. I Think a combination of what NYE suggested- reducing tension, along with "defending our interests"- regional and worldwide would do.

About the WM: i'll tell them we don't see any compelling reason to do so at this time- which can be understandable, given the highly sensitive nature of the information.

HBR: I havn't seen a consensus about this: do we tell about us getting it from another source, or not?

I thought of something like what Shiber suggested, but without the part about us not wanting to insult them. Instead, we tell them it was a part of a broader tech arrangement, in which it has played a minor role.
I think they'll get the message this way, that they havn't lost much anyway.- what do you say?

	08-03-2003 16:45									#111
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We presumably now have Horseback Riding. Sir Ralph can verify when he plays the turn.

	08-03-2003 17:22									#112
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by zeit I thought of something like what Shiber suggested, but without the part about us not wanting to insult them. Instead, we tell them it was a part of a broader tech arrangement, in which it has played a minor role. I think they'll get the message this way, that they havn't lost much anyway.- what do you say?

I like it. It sounds honest and believable. Even if they don't fall for it, it doesn't leave them much room to complain, and hopefully, if we continue a healthy relationship and trade a lot, they'll forget about it.

	08-03-2003 17:23									#113
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I suggest that we add a paragraph noting how we'd like to strengthen our relationship in the future, and trade as much as possible.

	08-03-2003 17:31									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I suggest that we add a paragraph noting how we'd like to strengthen our relationship in the future, and trade as much as possible.

I think saying we want to trade "as much as possible" in the future has too much chance of not ringing true as the game unfolds farther. What we really want to do is build up a tech lead and limit our trading somewhat, especially where Republic is concerned.

	08-03-2003 20:47									#115
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I agree with Nathan- as much as a "better luck next time" to GoW will probably sound nice to them after we rejected their offers for HBR for so long, it will just call for more nagging from GoW in the future- and after all, we want to keep a low profile, but keep the doors open for us when the time comes, we wouldn't want to lose GoW's respect.

Okay, i'll wait a few more hours, and if there aren't any particular objection or reservations, i'll go ahead and reply.

	09-03-2003 15:46									#116
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GoW is claiming contact with all other teams. Lego found the path.

	09-03-2003 16:06									#117
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I know Vox is trying to trade literature to GoW, couldn't we cut in and offer it for contact with Lego...?

	09-03-2003 16:13									#118
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Do you think that's a good idea, considering how low a value most of the teams place on tradable 'items'.

Undercutting our source for Polytheism and Monotheism might not be a good plan. If left alone, they may also secure Currency or Construction for us as well.

Do we want to screw with that?

	09-03-2003 17:46									#119
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Got this mail from Hot_Enamel of GoW, he seems to want some sort of contact asap. Posting it here so people who deal with these contacts can see it. Dont know why hes sending this to me

quote: Urgent Message - The GoW have made contact with the lost civilisation of Legoland. This occurred on the year 1300bc. I will be sending this to a couple of your members as I want to ensure you get this message to your team ASAP. Obviously, the GoW team is keen to share this contact with the rest of the world. The GoW had made a considerable investment in studying MapMaking and building galleys (Prebuilds for your info Zeit), and we would like to recoup some of that cost. I have been authorised to offer you contact with Legoland. This information has only just been posted on our forum, so I do not know any other details. Could you please contact us ASAP with your offer. We are being pretty flexible...Gold, GPT, Maps , tech, Discount on next tech. I live in a terrible Timezone, If you want contact ASAP, then feel free to PM GF direct. Otherwise any email you send me may take another half day for me to read it. I want to give you the best chance to make first contact. All the other teams are being notified. I hope we can deal soon.

	09-03-2003 18:08									#120
	Put an end to popups!

I suggest that we offer them Polytheism for contact, and immediately make the offer to Lego that we discussed earlier (all techs for Lego's WM plus their WM in 20 turns), before we miss the train.