02-03-2003 23:13									#61
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Offer them the techs this turn- it will take another turn, which will be another 48 hours from now, more or less. By that time, we can work this out with GoW, i am sure, as HotE said they will make that deal if indeed it turns to be that GF sent their agreement. I'll edit the appropriate post in the turn thread.

	03-03-2003 03:01									#62
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Zeit, two minor comments to what you send HotE: first of all, if they agreed to follow the initial, GF deal, there was no need to bring the no-whoring deal to the front again. It would have been easier on us if you didn't mention it. But, no problem, we can work with it, but in this case, the 'official' proposal should have been more detailed: the 10 turns, are they for both our techs, or per tech? I think most, if not all comments in this thread have been that it was rather unfair of leaving them 10 turns on MM, when possibly the NDA on CoL would have ended before that. I'd rather follow Nathan's initial proposal of 15 turns on CoL, 10 turns on MM, or which ever ended first.

Second comment: please include that they are required to give MM the moment they discover it.

situation report: not thank you.

Iron: maytbe possible to strike a deal, but the problem is we only have 1 source right now... you could ask them whether they anticipate to be able to trade with us soon...

DeepO

	03-03-2003 03:18									#63
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And make sure they send us a high quality minimap. (GIF or BMP)

	03-03-2003 03:40									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson And make sure they send us a high quality minimap. (GIF or BMP)

Huh? I don't remember us talking about a minimap from GoW. Did I miss something?

	03-03-2003 03:51									#65
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Sorry, I must have posted in the wrong thread. I meant for it to be in the Lux Situation thread.

	03-03-2003 16:41									#66
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quote: Iron: maytbe possible to strike a deal, but the problem is we only have 1 source right now... you could ask them whether they anticipate to be able to trade with us soon...

We still don't know for sure if we are able to trade at all.

	03-03-2003 18:48									#67
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I didn't want things to be dragged on- that's why i insterted the 10 turn NWA. Hote said that if GF meant that GoW accepted, then this will be carried out. But he could say this was a misunderstanding, which is a possible, although quite absurd way if interpreting GF's words. As i saw there were no major objections of the 10 turns NWA, i thought it was better to tell them: "we accept your offer on this and this" and not: "we have revisions, and are willing to accept this and this".

	03-03-2003 20:03									#68
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This is not directly related to anything discussed, but I just thought that it might be a good idea to mention to GoW, in response to their talk about how they'd prefer to be our tech supplier in the future, that we did not get a very good impression of GoW following its war with Lux Invicta and the discussions that followed in ND's foreign affairs office thread. If we're lucky, they'll feel that they have to do something to make up for their lost honor and cut us better deals for a while.
Btw, judging from the way they put things (mainly wanting to be our tech supplier), I think they feel that we are technologically backward. GoW must have a pretty weak grasp on things - we're at par with the rest of the civs and are the fastest researchers, according to the demographics . Anyway, this is note-worthy, IMHO.

	03-03-2003 21:06									#69
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Shiber, I don't think that they consider us backwards, it's more an attempt of getting better relations with us. The are offering to give us all research at bottomprice, if we would sign an exclusivity contract with them... and as far as I understand, they are at first interested at becoming our HBR trading partner, as they realize that their standard 10 turn NDA won't work in our case (actually, we should be close to discolusre by other civs)

Zeit: I can understand your reasons behind offering the NDA, but in this case it should have been better detailed, as the two techs have different etas... But this might be done in a footnote to the current proposed deal.

BTW, aren't we confusing GoW even more, by counteroffering when the first offer was already accepted?

DeepO

	03-03-2003 21:35									#70
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When acquiring a certain tech from a Bobian civ is our last resort, I'd rather buy it from GoW, who seem to be the weakest civ on Bob, in order to rebalance that continent.
However, an exclusivity deal is a bad idea. I'm getting the impression that GoW is desperate for gold because they realize that they're the weakest civ on Bob, and furthermore, they don't want to see our money going to the other civs on Bob, so they'd give us low prices anyway, especially if we tell them that RP or ND have made us offers that are more attractive.

Last edited by Shiber on 03-03-2003 at 22:00

	03-03-2003 22:48									#71
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Yeah, GoW seems to become smallest quickly, and they know it. plus, RP already mentioned that GoW was rather harsh in their diplomatic contacts ("full of threats" I think the quote was), but once you look past that they were very enjoyable trading partners, offering things at low prices.

I agree, that if possible we should do business with GoW for the moment, but there are a few problems with this: we are in the front what tech is concerned, so once we start negotiating for something, it is likely only the original civ has the tech. Further, in most cases we only have one thing to trade with at a given time (namely the tech we just researched), and we want to trade it to all teams at once to avoid them selling it to others. This means that although i might be possible to get 2 techs in return from e.g. GoW, we need to be able to find another team who is willing to trade something else, like gold or workers, or in general we're losing on total that one tech can bring us.

So... I think that for a while, we're going to need to stay to 1 on 1 trades for all teams who are active in research themselves...

DeepO

	03-03-2003 23:43									#72
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HotE responded with apologies, as well as acceptance (he will inform GF to send the money). I did not recieve a clarification regarding the NWA, but since i already offered him that, i don't want to withdraw it just like that, if you want, i can ask him to clarify things up "in the name of the team".
You want me to?

DeepO- you're probably right- i just thought its best to respond to their counter proposal anyway, and since the NWA is not such a big burden for us (we have the deal with Lux secured, right?), i thought its best to appease GoW, and perhaps HotE as well (he made some effort to strighten things out, as he should), to make sure the deal is finalized and that everyone is happy.
Who knows, maybe it worked- HotE mentioned they recieved RP's offer for CoL, but accepted ours.
I hope me being a bit too nice to them didn't hurt the team's effort, and i'm sorry if it did, i acted out of my own judgement in that one...

	04-03-2003 00:03									#73
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well... getting back on the ND(W)A now will mean they will ask for it without any question. I'd rather get MM first, and see with what kind of message it will come. Maybe the start on this by themselves.

I like the previous two messages, but still there are a few possible problems. The NDA is one: are they expecting us to follow this from now on? We didn't agree to this, but it culd look that way. In one of the future messages, this should get detailed.

Further, I expect they are going to offer us MM the turn they get it, but nowhere was it said that they needed to. This should be detailed, just to make things clear.

I think you handled the map things well, and also the political situation, with one minor problem: you want GoW to stay out of all wars? This is kind of against their principles, they are mercenaries! They like war

Iron question: I would say that in principle we would welcome this kind of deal, but that we currently aren't able to send them iron, which possibly might change. I strongly suspect Lux has been telling GoW that we have a border treaty with Vox (hence the previous question to our relation, and the mentioning of it now), but we should not tell them we've got two sources, one promised to us.

Better tell them that maybe it's best for them to establish that one lonely colony, and in case of an emergency we possibly might be able to help. Personally, I don't mind selling our only source away to a team, if the price is right, and the duration is not 20 turns, but more like 5...

Map trades: I'm not sure they understand that for us our maps are sacred, and we are not interested in trading them for anything. Maybe best to repeat it.

DeepO

	04-03-2003 00:21									#74
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quote: Originally posted by zeit HotE mentioned they recieved RP's offer for CoL, but accepted ours.

This must be why ND didn't get back to us on the matter of selling CoL - RP offered it to them for a bargain, behind our backs (thanks Togas...). Perhaps we can still save the day by sending ND a harsh message, and stating that buying our techs behind our backs will not earn our trust and respect; just realizing that we know might scare them away from buying CoL from RP and they'll swing back and buy it from us instead.

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Personally, I don't mind selling our only source away to a team, if the price is right, and the duration is not 20 turns, but more like 5...

Neither do I (though I'm sure Sir Ralph wouldn't approve), but is it possible, in-game, to trade a resource for a period of time other than 20 turns?

	04-03-2003 01:58									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber but is it possible, in-game, to trade a resource for a period of time other than 20 turns?

I think it is, but it would require a bit of creative use of the in-game diplo options. If you declare war, all your resource deals are ended, no? By making peace the turn after, you can do it whenever you want. IIRC, but I'm far from sure, gold is suspended, but lux / resource deals are not, they simply end.

Otherwise, it's probably possible that the team who got the iron gives it back after 5 turns, thus trading away it's only (lended) source.

Anyway, it looks like we're going to have 2 sources anyway

DeepO

	04-03-2003 02:28									#76
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DeepO- i think MM will be here the moment GoW has it- why would they want to let their 100 gold sit idly in our coffers, when the interest is a fixed 30 gold- the sooner they get their gold back, the better (for them), i'm certain they understand this issue, and it seems they consider they gold quite precious, according to HotE's messages.

I will ask for clarification on this matter, nonetheless- and will clearly put that MM should be sent when researched, and also asking details about the NWA. As for the other issues, i promised him to have further negotiations on those matters, but i did mention i was pretty busy during weekdays, so i think he'll get off my back regarding those issues (like Iron, maps, intel), at least for a few days.

About ND: we could simply ask them that, but i think its too late- i should have thought this was the case- ND buying from RP, but i was too busy with Gow to notice that, nonetheless, we can try. It's strange, though- RP and ND both researched Literature- so either they trade for a different tech, or gold. If its gold, why didn't they bargained with us as well?

Perhaps they had other motives, like previous agreements with RP, or a sudden change of hearts- maybe they want to balance the trade, by preventing us from being the sole beneficiaries.

We could, OTOH, simply ask, with somewhat hurt and agitated tone: "If you don't like the deal, why don't you reply and say so".

Re: GoW war tendencies - look at HotE's messages, all they are concerned is with the land size, economical issues, and their desire to make peace and trades with Lux- does that look like a warmongering team?

like i said before, this team's "warlike" stature is only an excuse for GF and the rest to act like barbarian and post "arrgh" and "we kill you soon..." messages on the board... .

	04-03-2003 02:49									#77
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quote: Originally posted by zeit About ND: we could simply ask them that, but i think its too late

How so? They still can't conduct the deal. As far as I understand, RP has to offer CoL, and ND has to make a counter offer and accept. RP will get CoL during turn 65, and assuming that they'll send the deal to ND as soon as they get CoL, ND will receive it by turn 66, due to the order of play.
If we can convince ND that what they're doing is immoral, not to mention that it agitates us, they might back off. Remember that we backed off from demanding HBR from Vox after we were told that GoW had some sort of an arrangement with Vox and that they'd be upset if Vox gave us HBR; we would have already bought HBR from GoW instead of received it from Vox, if it wasn't a useless tech that's only necessary to enter the mid age. The same approach might work on ND as it worked on us.

quote: We could, OTOH, simply ask, with somewhat hurt and agitated tone: "If you don't like the deal, why don't you reply and say so".

I suggest that you try to sound upset, and try to convey the message that we deem their actions as immortal and disrespectful, and that this could seriously severe our relations in the future.

quote: like i said before, this team's "warlike" stature is only an excuse for GF and the rest to act like barbarian and post "arrgh" and "we kill you soon..." messages on the board... .

Gotta agree with that. I think they gave up on this whole mercenary thing, since it seems that the market is completely empty.

	04-03-2003 02:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I think it is, but it would require a bit of creative use of the in-game diplo options. If you declare war, all your resource deals are ended, no? By making peace the turn after, you can do it whenever you want. IIRC, but I'm far from sure, gold is suspended, but lux / resource deals are not, they simply end.

That would work, but I was hoping there was a "conventional" way of doing this perhaps a feature that was added to PTW to alter the length of agreements, which I wasn't aware of.
Even If war and peace are declared in the same turn, other civs will receive a message that we went to war and then signed peace, right? In that case, it'd be better to post a short explanation in the public forum, saying that we did this to cancel a deal, with full consent from GoW, and that it was meant to last less than 20 turns. Otherwise, rumors might start to spread and people would say that we renegotiated an agreement while it was already in effect, or worse. Such a situation would certainly put a dent on our reputation, if not handled properly.

	04-03-2003 04:30									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Even If war and peace are declared in the same turn, other civs will receive a message that we went to war and then signed peace, right?

Yes, but only if they have an embassy with either of the two teams who go to war. Plus, I'm not sure if you start and end the war before the other team plays its turn.

DeepO

	04-03-2003 07:36									#80
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Considering that ND had no deal with us, and considering our own deal with Vox, I don't see any basis for us to characterize it as "immoral" for ND to stonewall us and buy Code of Laws from someone else. Indeed, if we criticize such a move on their part and they figure out what we and Vox are up to, they would have excellent reason to be upset with our apparent hypocrisy.

Nathan

	04-03-2003 22:45									#81
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I agree with Nathan- there is nothing immoral in them striking a deal with RP perhaps somewhat "not nice" - doing that while not replying to our constant messages. We can try act a bit agitated, but i see no basis for claims of them breaking any non formal rule.

I say its probably too late, because i assume that by now ND has closed a deal with RP, if our assumption is true.

I also rather it is alva who sends the messages- he already said ND were quite confused with whom to contact, so i rather he handles this.

	05-03-2003 23:17									#82
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Well- now that the tech trade is behind us (at least the negotiatons... :relief we can deal with the other issues concerning our relations with them.

Lux- according to HotE's last message, we can understand that they know Lux is here, so, i think we should all be prepared to be directed with questions- especially from ND and GoW. HotE said they were having a tough time signing peace with Lux. Beyond the immediate understanding i have for this matter, after hearing and seeing the frustration handling this situation can lead to, i also asked myself: what is it that Lux doesn't want GoW to get from them. I don't they had conversation which goes like:

Lux: "we will not have peace with your barbarians, despite we are small, we have pride"
GoW:" oh no, please do, we want to have peaceful relations with, you can be our friend and ally, which is great interest for us"
Lux: "hell no"
GoW (mutters to himself): "these luxian are so difficult to deal with".

I suppose something is bargained- the question is what- what does GoW has to offer Lux? money? keeping ND busy (highly unlikely) not sailing to take on Lux themselves?
And what does GoW want? Lux is not exactly a trusted party in the eyes of the northern tribe. Have any ideas?

They said they'll turn to Vox- which is understandable, but how much they know about the mutual resentment between the puppet, according to HotE and its master?

Should we step into the picture and offer our aid, as negotiators for this issue too, or that we had enough of trouble and would like to keep it low, with all that has to do with BOB tems.

GoW, and most likely all the rest of the BOBians seem to think we have a terribly tense relation with Vox, and that war is soon to erupt. It would be quite a shock to them if they know we are sharing techs, perhaps even tricked, and most likely quite upset. That secret will be discovered some day, but then again, it may not- we can keep maintaining a false sense of imminent war, untill one will actually erupt. We should also consider the following question- how does GoW know about Lux whereabouts? they have been told by Lux, at least that's what i believe.

I need to know what you want me to say and don't say to them, i'd hate lying, but i could always say things are getting tense with Lux here, and not mentioning the tech partnership, nor the border treaty. But what would Lux or Vox tell them, when they once again come and talk to them.

Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

	06-03-2003 00:01									#83
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As I understand it, the deal is a peace treaty acompanied by GoW sellijng Lux Map Making, but Lux needs the 20 gold they got back from Vox and 20 back from us before the deal can happen. That's why the situation is so frustrating for GoW - Lux is having a lot harder time getting their hands on the gold than they'd expected. (But, fortunately, Lux doesn't seem to be explaining the whole situation to GoW.) Once we release 20 gold back to Lux, assuming they agree to still give us the maps we want, that situation should clear up.

Regarding how GoW knows Lux is here, process of elimination would be a sufficient source of information. The only things I can think of that would be even theoretically possible are if Lux still has a settler wandering around Bob somewhere or if they got a city from another civ. And if GoW can establish that Lux didn't get a city on Bob, and feels like there's nowhere left for a settler to hide, that leaves here. Although it's certainly possible that Lux said things to GoW that provide additional reason to believe that Lux is here.

Nathan

	06-03-2003 00:05									#84
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Good question - how did they find out?
Possible immediate explanations that I can see:
1. Lux told them.
2. GoW have made an intelligent guess.
3. Vox is trading secrets.

We know that Vox are opportunistic, so #3 is definitely possible IMHO. I recommend that we keep an eye on Vox and see if we can find any substantial evidence to that.

quote: Originally posted by zeit Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

I'd wait until the deal with ND is completed in-game before telling anyone, but once it is - sure, why not? In fact, it'll improve our relations, since GoW will get the feeling that we're being open and honest with them.

	06-03-2003 00:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Lux- according to HotE's last message, we can understand that they know Lux is here, so, i think we should all be prepared to be directed with questions- especially from ND and GoW.

Well... who said that GoW knows Lux is on our continent? I agree they say it, but what are their sources? It is not unlikely that they are speculating on Lux's whereabouts, and are fishing for confirmation here... Before we tell them Lux is here, we should hear from Lux that they told GoW. I don't want us to be the team that takes away all doubts, let Vox or Lux do that.

This makes it a lot harder to answer to the rest of their questions, I agree we can't keep them hanging forever, we should indeed prepare a response to their 'now that Lux is also on your continent, how does the situation evolved?' question. We can say that the situation with Vox has always been tense, and this hasn't changed as we're both weary of what the other's UU can do in battle.
But, I don't mind telling that we also know that either we take Vox out completely, or we stay away from them to prevent later grudges. After all, there is no profit in us taking over fully corrupt cities, if we see no possibility to hold on to them long enough to make them profitable.

quote: I suppose something is bargained- the question is what- what does GoW has to offer Lux? money? keeping ND busy (highly unlikely) not sailing to take on Lux themselves?

One of the things GoW has to offer is peace, and promising to not sail to extinguish them. Another might be to keep ND (who is clearly more eager to take out Lux) from getting MM, so they can't sail to eradicate Lux.

quote: And what does GoW want? Lux is not exactly a trusted party in the eyes of the northern tribe. Have any ideas?

Gold. They need it, to deal with 2 stronger neighbours.

quote: They said they'll turn to Vox- which is understandable, but how much they know about the mutual resentment between the puppet, according to HotE and its master?

I guess not much. Most of this seems to come from speculation, or misinformation by Vox and Lux. HotE doesn't say one word on the subject of us being advantaged by the deal with Lux, on the contrary. So they certainly don't know everything that is going on. Keep quiet on this one, we don't want to anger Vox or Lux.

quote: Should we step into the picture and offer our aid, as negotiators for this issue too, or that we had enough of trouble and would like to keep it low, with all that has to do with BOB tems.

No. Let them mediate all they want, we should stay out of this until there is something for us to gain. Let's stay on the low profile that has done us a lot of good in this game... they can forget about us completely until we're ready to take our rightful position in the world.

quote: GoW, and most likely all the rest of the BOBians seem to think we have a terribly tense relation with Vox, and that war is soon to erupt. It would be quite a shock to them if they know we are sharing techs, perhaps even tricked, and most likely quite upset. That secret will be discovered some day, but then again, it may not- we can keep maintaining a false sense of imminent war, untill one will actually erupt.

I agree we should not pretend we're at the brink of war with Vox, however, we should (and this is no lie) keep the image of a tense relation. We don't want the Bobian civs to see us as an alliance, as it will most likely create an alliance on Bob as well. I would hate to think what a combined ND-RP team could do to us. So, gossipping that we don't want a war right now is ok for me, telling we're close is not.

quote: We should also consider the following question- how does GoW know about Lux whereabouts? they have been told by Lux, at least that's what i believe.

And I believe it to be a matter of deduction. Let's summarize some points:
1. Lux is gone, by exploring Bob knows it is no longer on the continent.
2. Lux couldn't have built a galley, as it both didn't had MM, and no coastal cities.
3. By combining 1 and 2, it is clear that Lux must have bought a city on another continent.
4. The only ones in contact with Lux are either Vox or GS, so either Vox or GS has sold them a city
5. Vox has lost in score when Lux 'moved', but gained in power (gold?).
6. GS would never sell a city to Lux, as we do not want to jeopardize early growth (which is our main advantage)
7. combining 5 and 6, Vox has sold Lux a city
8. GS has not given CoL or literature to Vox, Vox has not given HBR to GS. Lux OTOH has gotten all techs Vox already had.
9. Both Lux and Vox are not willing to discuss it, while GS simply ignored questions. But Lux and Vox have been chatty before, GS has always been secretive.

Combine all this, and you could deduce that Lux is currently a puppet of Vox...

quote: I need to know what you want me to say and don't say to them, i'd hate lying, but i could always say things are getting tense with Lux here, and not mentioning the tech partnership, nor the border treaty. But what would Lux or Vox tell them, when they once again come and talk to them.

No lies, in any case! We can leave some of the thruth behind, but never can we tell something that isn't true.
As the deduction where Lux has gone to is quite clear, we could tell them where Lux is, but I'd rather wait until one of the 2 other teams comments on this.

One possibility is say to GoW that we aren't allowed to discuss the whereabouts of Lux, as we promised to remain silent. They won't ask further, but have a very strong lead that we know where they are, and don't fully approve.

quote: Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

I don't mind, but I think it would be better to simply say that the situation with ND-CoL solved itself, without any real confirmation that they got it from us.

DeepO

	06-03-2003 00:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I'd wait until the deal with ND is completed in-game before telling anyone, but once it is - sure, why not? In fact, it'll improve our relations, since GoW will get the feeling that we're being open and honest with them.

It should be completed in-game now. As I recall, they'd already accepted our offer and offered 5gpt in-game in return, so when I hit Accept, that should have completed it.

	06-03-2003 02:47									#87
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DeepO- i really liked your analysis, and it makes perfect sense, but still, i don't think HotE would have said such a thing in a pretty confident manner that he did- unless he had confirmation. If anyone confirmed that, i'd say this was Lux- imagine the frustrated Trip telling him how Vox is blackmailing them, or at least that they give them a hard time.

GoW might be upset because Lux isn't offering enough- i wouldn't say Lux has the economy to support any serious trade for the time being, and GoW wasting their time with a petty sum of 20-40 gold from Lux seems more like charity than actual trade- how long will Lux be able to maintain any trading capabilities? not for long.
I think, that for the sake of regional stability, we should first get an agreement with Lux to talk about this with GoW- or at least tell them we do so, and try to help GoW to make the right move. I see an option for bettering the relationship with GoW, especially when we face an enthusiastic and active (in their board as well) consul. Perhaps helping them with a backup iron source, pushing them for compromises with LI- so that everything here goes smoothly for us as well, and generally trying to stabilize the situation- this is the way to go, as we focus on economy buildup, and wonder building.

So for now, i'll add to my list:
"tell GoW the issue with ND was solved."

I also think its safe to tell Lux and Vox GoW knows, Vox will know this shortly- or maybe already do (HotE: "Lux is having difficulty in trying to abide by their master"- means they know something about the relation, and from who- Vox or Lux?). I suppose i can also tell them something like:

"for the time being, we unfortunatly cannot share information regarding Lux Invictia. Hopefuly, in the future, these issues could possibly be discussed. What we can say is that the recent happenings in our continent did increase tension, But although the relations between Vox and us have been tense, the GS constantly seeks peaceful resolution, and aspire to maintain stability. We hope your effort to stabilize the relation with Lux succeed, and that it yields a peace agreement and renewed trading relationship. Regarding the Iron trade- we currently have no tradable iron deposit, but could possibly acquire such one. For now we advise you to build a colony, as dangerous and expensive as it may be- you can use it to upgrade warriors, in the face of imminent threat. A trade route has to be established, and an ownership on a tradable deposit, before such trade is possible- and it is best to be constantly prepared."

Please comment and i'll edit accordingly.

	06-03-2003 05:20									#88
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Good analysis, DeepO.

	06-03-2003 23:27									#89
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The proposed message to GoW certainly changed a lot over night... what about explaining to them now that we did knew where Lux went, but were bound by secrecy. And, that this latest stunt of Vox certainly increased tension again, even if we're still trying to avoid war.

Re: iron: indeed, advise them to get an iron source, for two reasons:
1. we don't know when we will be able to trade iron to them
2. Although another source would be in our vicinity, we can't be sure we'll get it, certainly not now that Vox has gotten their city back, and might prepare to take that source from us.

Maybe, but I'm not sure on this, could we say that we agreed on letting Lux live in exile on our continent, a prmosie that would have net us some future advantages. Advantages we now will miss...

DeepO

	07-03-2003 00:23									#90
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Hmm... but we want GoW to have iron in order to balance Bob as much as possible, no?
Here's an idea: how about we tell them that we're willing to trade our only source of iron (at the moment) to them for a period of 20 turns, or less if we are suddenly attacked and need to upgrade warriors (in which case, we promise to resume trading once the fighting has ceased and give them the full 20 turns), in exchange for their world map and some gold (they will have to stop their research for several minutes to accumulate gold to pay for the upgrades anyway). GoW will have enough iron for a period of time long enough to build several swordsmen and upgrade several warriors, and we'll make a nice profit and finally get a map of Bob.