21-04-2003 20:08									#451
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I don't like sending them threats, but I do like intimidation (which is just what we want to build up if we don't want GoW or anyone else to get any more ideas of landings).
Telling them to check the military advisor, and also the power graph is good. I'd also remind them that the last people who landed a military force on our coast from a galley were just as surprised to see it gone the next turn as they were boasting on the public forum. A reminder that we are industrious, and that most of our territory is roaded, and most of our forces are mobile (meaning they can attack from 6 tiles away) would also achieve a nice effect, IMHO.

	21-04-2003 23:13									#452
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I don't think we should say anything to GoW about landing. The talks made it very clear that we would kill any units that landed on our shores, and GF made a statement as to the effect that 2 units near our core would have... mainly that they just die.

They know that landing 2 units doesn't gain them anything. No need to make them feel like we are assuming they will break the agreement.

We should ask GoW about the Chivalry part of the deal. Ask them if they've agreed to it, and when we should prepare to get the 200g together.

	25-04-2003 10:54									#453
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Aeson, I agree on Chivalry, we should find out soon. If ND and GoW work together (remote possibility, but not impossible), they could agree not to give chivalry to us... leaving us 'open' for invasion.

DeepO

	28-04-2003 20:46									#454
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Ok, have we had any contact with GoW since we killed their units? I mean, if we're really at war with them, I gonna start thinking of how to hurt them.

"I've done worse than kill you. I've... hurt you. And I wish to go on... hurting you." [/Wrath of Khan]

-Arrian

	29-04-2003 19:11									#455
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Zeit, could you write a draft for a message to GoW?
IMHO it should address the following issues: why have they landed units on our territory despite our warnings, why won't they accept the peace offer that we sent them and whether they would like to begin trading luxuries.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?

	30-04-2003 01:24									#456
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Can we trade luxs before we have a harbor?

I'd rather not get into details on our very first message, let's address the more immediate concerns- like peace...

We also want to get a clearer picture on how they view our conflict with Vox and if they even wish to have trade relationship with us of any kind.

I thought about telling them we face growing hostility from certain teams, both hidden and obvious expressions of it, and that we wish to know where does our relationship stands, beyond this skirmish between us, which we don't see as a declaration of an all-out war.

True, this is somewhat naive of us to tell them, in a sophisticated way that we feel like: "everyone hates us" when we obviously don't trust them, when we're in an official state of war, and especially when we feel like everything we share is used against us.

But if we break it down and consider it, i believe the harm that could come from telling them so, including a request that relationships are renewed can turn into real gains, if GoW is still considering it's course of action. Perhaps they became hesitant once they have witnessed our resolve, as well as our capabilities to stand behind our words, while facing what used to be the strongest ground based military in the world.

I'd understand if for now we take a more cautious approach and stick to the formal template of a peace offer, while raising the obvious question Shiber posted.

In these days, it's hard for us to make a first step, especially after being burnt so badly (there is a saying in hebrew, which probably a common one about that one who was burnt from boiling water, and now is cautious when handling warm water), but perhaps now, when we feel a bit more confident and determined than before that we turn to potential friend/foe with more of what they wouldn't expect us to.

Please comment on this idea, as i most likely have no clue on what i'm talking about...

	30-04-2003 02:03									#457
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Can we trade luxs before we have a harbor?

No, but if they're seriously interested, we'll have a reason to build a harbor other than for vet ships.
What's more important is that raising issues such as future trade of luxuries make it very clear to GoW that we do not see this as a real war, nor do we hold any grudge at them for betraying us.

quote: In these days, it's hard for us to make a first step,

I know... but IMHO it's VERY important that we make it.
All in all I think we should let them know that we do not see this little pseudo-war as something serious. Maybe GoW will get the message and think along the same lines, and then they'd realize that they're being dragged into some ridiculous affair by Togas and that this would not really benefit them at all in the end.

	30-04-2003 02:14									#458
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I think we should wait for peace. Right now they probably feel completely safe... Vox has our attention. They (almost surely) aren't going to ship over a large part of their military just to get killed when it lands and leave their homeland open to be attacked, and we have to deal with Vox first, so the war doesn't have much point anyways.

The longer we are at war with GoW, the more likely it would be that we could actually hit them. Plus things might change and we could want to hit GoW (in combination with ND, or to help them from being sandwiched on BOB) by the time Vox is dealt with.

If we are facing a coallition of some sort in the future, peace with GoW isn't going to help us any as they'd be in on it too. If we had a harbor and wanted to do luxury trading, then a peace treaty might be worthwhile, but I don't see how we gain anything by making peace right now.

	30-04-2003 02:22									#459
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the only reason, IMHO to even deal with GoW in the near future is Chivalry. As ND is wasting time on feudalism, GoW will be the only to hold it for some time, and we need it in order to attack BoB shortly after Vox is taken.

	30-04-2003 03:34									#460
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Question: Why isn't GoW accepting peace?

possible answers:
1. They're under contract to attack us from someone, possible Vox

2. They hope they will be able to take some of our cities when we're not defending them

3. They need the happiness bonus, as we have attacked them, and they currently are experiencing war unweariness

4. They want to break the NDA on Feudalism

5. something else

I don't why they don't accept it, but do they have any reason to stop the war? I don't think so... not as long as we're being a threat to them, or we offer them something better. Do we want to stop the war at our expense? Not really, only if it gives us a shot at getting Chivalry. So, I think we can politely threat them, either by saying that if they continue this, they will be our first target on Bob where we considered them our least likely target, or by saying that they will forego future favorable trade deals if they keep this up. (e.g. us researching Chivalry, and giving (not selling!) it to ND.)

DeepO

	30-04-2003 03:49									#461
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I agree with everything DeepO has stated.

Also, I would add that perhaps they attacked us to distract ND, like they were sugesting in the ruse earlier.

I wish they would accept the damn peace because I think RP should be eliminated next. I just don't trust them, and feel they are and will manipulate the other teams against us.


Maybe we should next target the team that accepts Beta into their ranks, just for his commentary

	30-04-2003 03:55									#462
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quote: I wish they would accept the damn peace because I think RP should be eliminated next.

No need to lower ourselves to the same line of thinking as Togas.
Our strategy should be so that it gives us the best chance of winning, not making sure anyone in particular won't win.

Let's deal with vox first and take it from there.

	30-04-2003 04:01									#463
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Having said that, getting in contact with Gow is priority.
I wouldn't even mention any trades at all.
Come to think of it, Zeit having been away a couple of days might gives us the perfect angle to do so.
If he contacts gow seemingly unofficial "Hey, I'm gone 2 days and look what happens...", this could leave both sides not having to loose face and 'feeling' to be on neutral grond.

	30-04-2003 04:02									#464
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quote: Originally posted by alva No need to lower ourselves to the same line of thinking as Togas. Our strategy should be so that it gives us the best chance of winning, not making sure anyone in particular won't win. Let's deal with vox first and take it from there.

Lower ourselves to the level of Togas? I'm not sure how or why you implied that into my words. I'm looking at the best way to win, I think we next wage war either on GoW or RP. I would prefer RP due to their duplicitous nature and that they have the most room for expansion next to lego. Nip that in the bud I say.

	30-04-2003 04:05									#465
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There is also an ever so handy sea lane right to their capital. Turn x-1 all clear from the RP POV. Turn x, 6 GS pike and 8 knights are on a hill next to their harbour and within spitting distance of Madrid...

	30-04-2003 04:11									#466
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quote: I'm not sure how or why you implied that into my words.

Sorry Asleep, should have made it more clear, didn"t mean personally, but over the few weeks, I have read for comments like it and our ' vision' shouldn't become clouded because of one person.
If if turns out that the best tactic is to take on RP, then let that be our course but only if it is in our best interest and not because we want revenge (insert other reson)

	30-04-2003 04:17									#467
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quote: Originally posted by alva Sorry Asleep, should have made it more clear, didn"t mean personally, but over the few weeks, I have read for comments like it and our ' vision' shouldn't become clouded because of one person. If if turns out that the best tactic is to take on RP, then let that be our course but only if it is in our best interest and not because we want revenge (insert other reson)

Oh, I agree with all that. I think RP is a good target for us, not too large, and we can get a foothold on the continent. And especially if we are invited into the war by ND


along NYE's thinking:

Yes. If we wait for them (RP) to move against ND (and get some actual confirmation, not a ruse) then we can hit them when all of their offensive forces are in the Northwest, far from Madrid. And Madrid is 2 turns for defensive units from Pomplona, so they would be SOL.

I was thinking 10 galleys with 15 knights and 5 pikes for the first wave. I think that target is reasonable, with the WCs that can be upgraded. Will depend of course on whats left over after dealing with vox.

	30-04-2003 04:20									#468
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quote: So, I think we can politely threat them, either by saying that if they continue this, they will be our first target on Bob where we considered them our least likely target, or by saying that they will forego future favorable trade deals if they keep this up.

Let's not say anything about targets in the future. If we say GoW isn't a likely target, expect ND and RP to feel they are our next targets. Just saying 'target' in relation to BOB will probably get all 3 more united against us, regardless of the context.

If we approach GoW, it should just be to inquire as to if they plan on still going through with the Chivalry deal. Say something to the effect that we now have the commerce to spare, and are hopeful of aquiring Chivalry through them or if not, through our own research.

The 'war' is rather meaningless except that it doesn't allow any in game deals. If they aren't looking for in game deals from us, it's completely meaningless (for us) at this point.

	30-04-2003 04:26									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we approach GoW, it should just be to inquire as to if they plan on still going through with the Chivalry deal. Say something to the effect that we now have the commerce to spare, and are hopeful of aquiring Chivalry through them or if not, through our own research.

Ah, I had completely forgotten about that! How much was the deal for, 200g (the same as the feudalism deal?) or was it a bit more.

We should figure out their ETA on that as well, from them directly or estimates. They've had, what, 6 or 7 turns with feudalism, minus the 3 (?) turns of anarchy? And their economy is probably not efficient (to put it lightly) though possibly fueled by the contract on us by vox.

	30-04-2003 04:34									#470
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Yes it was 200g, delivered by the time they were halfway through research. They never officially accepted any part of the deal (and ignored a request as to if they had), so who knows what they are thinking.

	30-04-2003 08:50									#471
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We need to be *extremely* careful about declaring any of the Bobians as targets.

Just taking Vox and our continent will be threatening enough...

	30-04-2003 08:54									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus We need to be *extremely* careful about declaring any of the Bobians as targets. Just taking Vox and our continent will be threatening enough...

I agree, I think we have to wait until invited by ND, (or someone else) or at least when the fighting is raging on Bob, though that could force a peace to fight us.

	30-04-2003 09:00									#473
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"Having been distracted by the barbarian Vox, we just want to stay home, build, and watch HBO."

	30-04-2003 12:46									#474
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel We should figure out their ETA on that as well, from them directly or estimates. They've had, what, 6 or 7 turns with feudalism, minus the 3 (?) turns of anarchy?

Excuse my complete ignorance, but what government type is GoW now?
IIRC they're in Monarchy, but I just wanted to make sure.

	30-04-2003 12:51									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Excuse my complete ignorance, but what government type is GoW now? IIRC they're in Monarchy, but I just wanted to make sure.

I was under the impression they were in republic, but not 100% sure of that.

	30-04-2003 12:54									#476
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Republic.

RP is the only Monarchy. Vox and Lego are still despots.

	30-04-2003 13:11									#477
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Damn, so we've given them a happiness bonus by attacking their units first? Or do they don't get negative WW when we attack their units that are within our cultural borders?

	30-04-2003 13:14									#478
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I'm not sure. Going into other's territory is not good for WW. Losing units is worse (especially in territory other than yours). The whole thing as applies to MP is a little unclear.

	30-04-2003 13:16									#479
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Is this happiness bonus even that relevant on chieftain? Their empire is quite small and they already have a couple luxuries hoooked up I believe.

	30-04-2003 13:21									#480
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I doubt it will help the way it helped with a size 11 and a size 12 city.

I wonder what the rest of the world makes of EotS. I notice Lego cap just hit 7.