19-04-2003 06:06									#421
	Increase Your PM Length

Nathan, the problem is that if they have landed, there is no way for them to get out until one turn later. This means that Vox will have spotted them, that GoW could take screenshots, and possibly, if they doublecross us, they take a city next turn if we decide to let them live. So we have to declare war.

I don't want to stay at war, but we have to let the others know what GoW has proposed to us, or we will be accomplices. The "until" part for me would be enough to post a public announcement (maybe even with the chat log) as to what is going on, and if GoW is willing to offer peace after that, fine by me. But I doubt it... they will feel crossed, and we can't seriously expect them to be our friends later on, all the trust would have gone.

That's what makes me mad: they force us to become enemies, under the cover of being our 'special' friends. And there is a big chance that it will escalate from there, e.g. I wouldn't be surprised if GoW starts to sell Feudalism the first turn into our war to everyone interested, even if they are under NDA. But what does a treaty mean if you are at war? This should also be one of the things we have to post in public, so that other teams know that we are being crossed, instead of being the agressors. Maybe it will keep teams like e.g. Lego and ND to receive Feudalism from GoW, as they know we won't like it one bit.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 07:05									#422
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If GoW lands, It warrents a thread in the public forum, announcing that they have landed they are in the middle of a war zone and that must move next turn or be attacked as an enemy. We do not want this because we do not want to sour relations and get involved with bobian politics. We do not want war with GoW.We will defend our lands, but no more (re: GoW). But we will not forget how GoW tried to play us like pawns.

Diplomats
Communicate (via pm) with GoW and tell them if they force our hand, we will expose them publicly.

If they take monsoon or do not leave, we will wipe the horsies out, expose them publicly and plot revenge while attending to Vox. Forge alliances against GoW. Build an invasion fleet and send over knights (or calvary). We should wait that long when it comes to the infrastructure (in Voxian cities ) we will have to build after the the War of The One.

	19-04-2003 07:36									#423
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed If GoW lands, It warrents a thread in the public forum, announcing that they have landed they are in the middle of a war zone and that must move next turn or be attacked as an enemy.

This bit is the best response.

We simply refuse to participate in the deception, but at the same time avoid smearing GoW (which would make dealing with them very difficult).

They will be near nothing of importance. If they go south, we can attack them next turn with WCs. If they take Monsoon, it will be rubble, and we will then be enemies for real. Their choice.

Private discussions with ND would not be a bad thing, but making a scene in the public forum would be a bit drastic. I think. We would be putting a lot on the line regarding whom believes whom. GF can be very creative in the mud slinging department, if you don't already know that. And we would leave relations with GoW in tatters.

DeepO. I too support you in the bit about being honest. However, honesty does not require that we take this to the court of public opinion. Honesty requires only that we state publically that they are unwelcome, that they will leave, or there will be war. Alternatively, we could say nothing publically. Simply tell GoW that their options are to leave, or lose the Horse. Silence is not dishonest.

	19-04-2003 08:44									#424
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmmm...

The crux of the 'honesty' argument seems to be whether we disclose that GoW had proposed a faux-war.

I do not believe that honesty requires full transparency of what other teams have proposed to us. That is their business...

If GoW acts agressively, for whatever reason, we will respond as appropriate, and that is what we should report to the world.

	19-04-2003 10:32									#425
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

We had a clear understanding with GoW that any of their units landing on our continent would be killed, and I think we should follow through on that if they land. But I'd rather resolve things as peacefully and amicably as honor allows afterward.

If we can convey the impression that our war with GoW will extend only to our attacking any GoW units (including galleys) that approach our territory, I think we could keep silence about GoW's trickery without behaving dishonorably. Whether that would be a good move diplomatically, however, is another issue since any team that finds out we knew and didn't tell them would view our silence as putting us at least somewhat on GoW's side in the matter.

	19-04-2003 11:21									#426
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why? Participating in the ruse would have us screaming about invasion and posting faked shots (most likely) while touching nothing.

Reality has us destroying any GoW units that come near us, after they land, and not contributing to the ruse vis-a-vis ND.

I think the most effective response is to annihilate them if they intrude uninvited, and to infom ND through private channels as to what is up.

Going public would be risking a disaster, IMO. Moreover, who is concerned other than ND? RP? Screw 'em. Vox? Haha!

	19-04-2003 14:56									#427
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's not that we need to go for a public announcement, but I think we should let all teams know that GoW tried to deceive them, a plan in which we didn't participate. And yes, this means also RP (Vox I don't care about). We can be honest, and say we refused, but that GoW attacked us a few turns later anyway. It would be perfectly honest to say that we don't know what their intentions are for the moment, but we must deny involvement in whatever ruse GoW might be planning.

The teams I think would be most concerned about this is ND, because they are possibly the third party in this, and Lego because we want to keep them as friends, and need to convince them of our honesty. RP is somewhat important to tell it to too, because we don't know if this would be really an invasion of ND GoW is fearing. I may be wrong, but it doesn't sound like there is an alliance between RP and GoW, although this idea could come straight from Togas.

As to Vox: we should let them know too. If this is a contract from Vox, we can seriously expect that there will be trouble between Vox and GoW if they know that GoW even proposed to us to set it up, instead of declaring war. This could mean nice fireworks on their diplomatic channels, and I wouldn't mind that at all. We have been swamped for the past week or so, while Vox has plenty of time to write nice puns on the forum. Let them worry about something else too.

The problem is, of course, that if we are going to tell all these teams about the GoW proposal, GoW will find out for sure that we talked. Any team might open a PM to GF 5 minutes later, asking what is true about this. Which means that no matter what, we're focked. Going Public certainly is asking for a disaster, but I don't see many other choices... and no matter how we would do it, this has to be carefully planned.

As to asking them to leave: we can't do that, at least not public. That would make us appear weak, and lead to responses as: "oh, no units to attack GoW? Maybe we should fill a boat with 2 horsies too". We can, of course, ask them in private, and in public only say that our negotiations lead to another solution then war. GoW seems to forget we have one excellent bargaining chip: if we work together with ND, we can get them to Answars a few turns before GoW gets to riders. Those few turns is exactly what GoW is hoping to gain on them, instead of lose on them.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 15:09									#428
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Regarding the diplomatic message to GoW:
I'd like to propose that we get the save first, and try to kill those horsies. If we manage to (the odds appear to be on our side), we respond to GoW with something along the lines of: "Your horsemen have been destroyed. Gathering Storm will not tolerate any further invasions to its territory, nor will it play along with anyone that wishes to make it into a pawn, and expose any ruse that you have in mind that involves us."

	19-04-2003 15:22									#429
	Put an end to popups!

Shiber, was there a chat last night with GoW, or did I assumed that wrongly? If so, do you have a log?

DeepO

	19-04-2003 15:23									#430
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DeepO As to Vox: we should let them know too. If this is a contract from Vox, we can seriously expect that there will be trouble between Vox and GoW if they know that GoW even proposed to us to set it up, instead of declaring war. This could mean nice fireworks on their diplomatic channels, and I wouldn't mind that at all. We have been swamped for the past week or so, while Vox has plenty of time to write nice puns on the forum. Let them worry about something else too.

quote: The problem is, of course, that if we are going to tell all these teams about the GoW proposal, GoW will find out for sure that we talked. Any team might open a PM to GF 5 minutes later, asking what is true about this. Which means that no matter what, we're focked. Going Public certainly is asking for a disaster, but I don't see many other choices... and no matter how we would do it, this has to be carefully planned.

At first I considered suggesting that we expose the chatlog where they proposed this idea, but then I realized that this would considerably hurt the trust between ourselves and the other teams ("GS exposes the contents of private communications!").

	19-04-2003 15:30									#431
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Shiber, was there a chat last night with GoW, or did I assumed that wrongly? If so, do you have a log? DeepO

Times are GMT+2:00

quote: Session Start: Sat Apr 19 01:17:06 2003 Session Ident: #GoW [01:17] * Now talking in #GoW [01:17] * Topic is 'Glorious Warmongers' Discussion' [01:17] * Set by Panzer32 on Fri Apr 18 19:25:11 [01:17] Shiber: Good evening [01:17] GhengisFarb: Good for us [01:17] GhengisFarb: Not so good for you I think [01:17] Shiber: I've read your post on the PTWDG forum [01:17] Shiber: Ahh, you've landed some horsemen near Monsoon, I presume [01:18] GhengisFarb: That's a valid presumtion [01:18] * Ennet has joined #GoW [01:18] Shiber: Part of your ruse GhengisFarb? [01:19] Shiber: Or an actual attempt at conquest? [01:19] GhengisFarb: All those tempting undefended cities are just too hard to resist [01:19] Shiber: lol [01:19] GhengisFarb: And we're sure all your troops are on the Vox front [01:19] Shiber: lol again [01:19] Shiber: Yes they are. Right next-door. [01:19] Shiber: Within striking range. [01:20] Shiber: Bye bye horsies. [01:20] GhengisFarb: We don't want much just 3-4 of your undefended cities, its not like you wanted them or you would have defended them [01:20] MasterZen: plus, size 1... [01:21] Shiber: We don't need to garrison coastal cities if they're not threatened from the land and if we have mobile troops on roads within range of the city's surroundings [01:21] MasterZen: think of it as alleviating your micromanagement duties so you can concentrate on the Vox war [01:21] Shiber: Anyway, save me the tension that would build up until we receive the save: where have you landed? [01:22] Shiber: lol, seriously, I can't believe you expect to hold anything. [01:22] Shiber: With horses. [01:22] GhengisFarb: Yes. this way you will be viewed as less of a threat now that we take out some of your cities [01:22] Shiber: Brought from afar on galleys. [01:22] Shiber: You're trying to tempt ND into attacking you, aren't you? [01:22] GhengisFarb: Well the Horsemen couldn't very well fit in bottles, cold they [01:23] Shiber: They will once we're done with them [01:23] MasterZen: they are just searching for WMD... [01:23] GhengisFarb: Once your done with them? What are you doing to ND? [01:23] * Aeson has joined #GoW [01:23] Shiber: GhengisFarb, do you know how much chances your horsemen have on the defense against veteran MedInf? [01:24] Aeson: Hello [01:24] MasterZen: hello [01:24] MasterZen: ours are lucky horses [01:24] GhengisFarb: Irrelevalent, very unlikely you have and Med Inf in rang to attack the Horsemen [01:24] Aeson: So, I take it raiders dressed in black have landed? [01:24] Shiber: lol [01:24] Shiber: GhengisFarb, with roads, in range means three tiles away. [01:25] Aeson: Yes, we wouldn't have any troops on our Northern borders with Vox [01:25] Shiber: In the case of WCs, it's 6 tiles away. [01:25] Shiber: That's pretty good range. I wouldn't expect you to notice from your boat's view. [01:25] MasterZen: oh but you wouldn't spare them from the main front now would you? [01:25] *Aeson* hey probably landed on the hill 1 of Monsoon... so we don't have any Med inf...WC's do the trick there though [01:26] Shiber: Fools. You've landed within the range of a mammoth stack, and we've still got a turn to spare before the next skirmish with Vox. [01:26] -: *Aeson* WCs can move onto hills, right? [01:26] Aeson: Is this intended to be part of the ploy you mentioned? [01:26] GhengisFarb: You aint got a mammoth stack of anything but shivering workers [01:26] Shiber: lol [01:26] *Aeson* aye... but tone it down, no insults [01:27] MasterZen: trash talk reaches new heights (lows) [01:27] Shiber: If you think so... but you'll be very surprised next turn. [01:27] Shiber: Yeah, I agree with MasterZen. Tone it down a bit, GhengisFarb. [01:27] MasterZen: I think it's funny actually [01:27] -: *MasterZen* Can I ask you something about System Shock later, when all of this has calmed down? [01:27] MasterZen: we should start a thread [01:28] Shiber: Be our guests [01:28] GhengisFarb: What ploy? You stated flat out that you would not go along with it so we decided the only way to implement it was to actually invade you, we'll only burn down a few of your size one cities then leave [01:28] * Trip imagines a large stack of GS Workers all huddling together [01:28] Trip: LoL [01:28] *MasterZen* sure, though I haven't played it actually [01:28] -: *MasterZen* Oh, lol [01:28] MasterZen: again, you don't really need them do you? [01:28] -: *MasterZen* It's not really about the game, just about sound [01:28] *MasterZen* ok [01:28] -: *MasterZen* Btw, ever played SS2? [01:28] *MasterZen* nope [01:28] -: *MasterZen* Bummer [01:29] *MasterZen* sound card problems... the bane of DOS games [01:29] -: *MasterZen* Yeah, lol! [01:29] Aeson: hey.. strength in numbers! [01:29] *MasterZen* I remember the good onld days in which you didn't actually need sound... [01:29] Trip: [01:29] MasterZen: hehe [01:29] Shiber: MasterZen, be a nice guy and save me the speculations and the waiting for the save. Where did you land? [01:30] Shiber: We'd like to start planning right now. You know, to cut down the time that we'll be holding the turn [01:30] MasterZen: lol [01:30] MasterZen: we don't mind the wait.. [01:30] GhengisFarb: on the hill south of Baboon [01:30] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I honestly don't believe that you're serious about this. Your military is weak compared to us, and you're bringing in forces from galleys, and your territory is ridiculously distant. [01:30] GhengisFarb: Cut down the time to what, 72 hours. [01:30] MasterZen: plus, if you have a mammoth stack nearby, I don't think you'll need much planning to take us out [01:30] -: *Aeson* looks like we're gonna have to move some pikemen [01:31] GhengisFarb: By all means, rush us with your Mammoth Stack of Workers. [01:31] *MasterZen* just good old bleeps [01:31] GhengisFarb: You Brute! Hold still so I can Road you! [01:31] MasterZen: hahaha [01:31] GhengisFarb: Irrigate this! [01:31] MasterZen: no!! not the mine !! nooooo!! [01:31] -: *Aeson* Unless of course, the WCs get them first [01:32] * Aeson has left #GoW [01:32] aeson No such nick/channel [01:32] aeson End of /WHOIS list. - [01:32] MasterZen: did we just scare him away? [01:33] GhengisFarb: I think this turned into too much of a MontyPython skit for him [01:33] Panzer32: probably... he didn't want to be irrigated, mined, and roaded [01:33] GhengisFarb: That's a lot to take, even for a terrain tile. [01:34] Shiber: MasterZen, no, he's posting to the GS forum. [01:34] * Aeson has joined #GoW [01:34] MasterZen: ok [01:35] GhengisFarb: What? You couldn't open another window? [01:35] Aeson: I get a little bit too happy clicking 'x' buttons sometimes [01:35] MasterZen: itchy trigger finger? [01:36] Aeson: Aye [01:36] MasterZen: war nerves... [01:36] Shiber: Very well. The horsemen will make excellent GL fodder. [01:37] GhengisFarb: Did we invade or didn't we invade? And if didn't invade are we just saying that because we did invade and don't want you planning ahead to attemptto evade our invade? [01:37] MasterZen: I didn't know workers generated GLs [01:37] Aeson: I have this catapult all rigged to float a few tons of cologne onto the Vox troops if they ever get in range... Our agents tell us it was body oder that killed Grog, not a sword [01:37] GhengisFarb: They build them [01:37] MasterZen: LoL [01:37] MasterZen: well, Grog probably didn't bathe too much now did he? [01:38] Aeson: He was guarding the only spring near the isthmus... that's what this is all about, water rights [01:38] MasterZen: or bathing rights? [01:38] Aeson: (it seems Grog wasn't keeping his latrine far enough away from the runoff... and well.. [01:39] * FrustratedPoet has joined #GoW [01:40] FrustratedPoet: hello [01:40] MasterZen: hello [01:40] -: *Aeson* where is our catapult ATM? [01:40] Aeson: hello FP [01:40] -: *Aeson* Btw, we've got only one cat, right? [01:40] FrustratedPoet: all trespassers will be prosecuted, you know. [01:40] MasterZen: we were just discussing Grog's hygiene [01:40] Panzer32: huh? [01:40] *Aeson* Aye... it's in Arashi [01:40] FrustratedPoet: well Grog sure doesn't smell to good right now [01:41] *Aeson* We can have 2-3 more next turn... 2 of them make it to Arashi, 1 just to Tempest [01:41] MasterZen: nope [01:41] -: *Aeson* but it's not in range of the hill 1 of Monsoon, right? [01:42] *Aeson* anyways, GF has told me they didn't land anything... take that as you will [01:43] *Aeson* I think you're not supposed to know that though...so don't let on too much [01:43] -: *Aeson* okay, thanks [01:46] Aeson: I think the storm has interrupted my net connection again [01:46] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: ) [01:46] * MasterZen wonders WHAT storm... [01:47] * Panzer32 thinks the storm has gathered for far too long, and thus has gotten much too violent [01:47] * GhengisFarb1 has joined #GoW [01:48] GhengisFarb1: I got kicked off and didn't know it. :P [01:48] Panzer32: hehe we have cloning and you dont!! [01:48] GhengisFarb1: Yes are two invading Horsemen will be 20 Horsemen by the time your turn comes around. [01:49] GhengisFarb1: What will you Mammoth stack of Shivering Workers do then? [01:50] GhengisFarb1: Maybe it should be "Shibering" Workers [01:50] FrustratedPoet: Is 'to Shiber' a verb now? [01:51] * GhengisFarb has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [01:51] GhengisFarb1: I don't know that is wasn't a verb before [01:51] * GhengisFarb1 is now known as GhengisFarb [02:05] Trip: zzz [02:07] Ennet: hi Trip [02:07] Trip: hiya [02:08] MasterZen: suddenly the trash talking hath died down... [02:09] Trip: the Chronicler demands more trash! [02:09] * FrustratedPoet throws garbage at Trip [02:09] FrustratedPoet: [02:10] Trip: ;_; [02:10] * Aeson has joined #GoW [02:10] FrustratedPoet: welcome back Aeson [02:11] Aeson: thanks... that was the snow messing with my satellite [02:14] *Aeson* Is anything going on? [02:16] -: *Aeson* Nothing that you can't see [02:16] Shiber: YOU HAVE YOUR OWN SATELLITE!! [02:16] Shiber: OMG, YOU MUST BE RICH! [02:17] Shiber: Wait a minute, it doesn't snow in space... [02:17] Aeson: who said my satellite was in space? [02:17] Aeson: [02:17] * Aeson couldn't afford one that actually was in orbit [02:18] MasterZen: I didn't know satellites could be found anywhere else.. [02:18] Trip: I have a satellite in my closet :P [02:18] Aeson: I have one buzzing around my head [02:18] Shiber: An old Soviet comms satellite crashed into my backyard a couple of months ago [02:18] Shiber: It's been making weird beep noises ever since [02:19] Aeson: fun [02:19] Trip: like one of those models of atoms [02:19] Aeson: did it make a crater? [02:19] Trip: with all the subatomic particles flying around [02:19] Shiber: Not at all. You can't sleep with all that commotion [02:19] Shiber: And every radio and TV in the neighborhood is now picking Russian broadcasts [02:19] Aeson: yes, I must be Hydrogen [02:20] Aeson: (or something very very heavy...not sure which) [02:20] Shiber: An anvil? [02:20] Aeson: I don't think so.. it doesn't make that clanging sound when hit by a hammer [02:20] Aeson: more of a splat [02:21] Aeson: I think we have scared GoW off sufficiently now [02:21] Shiber: Maybe it's all the particle radiation [02:21] Aeson: We must keep this in mind for use against their horsemen... [02:22] Shiber: What, particle radiation? [02:22] Aeson: no, inane conversations [02:22] Shiber: Ohh, I get it, we'll pick up those Soviet satellites of ours, strap them onto our catapults... [02:22] Aeson: yah! [02:22] Shiber: And away they go, for a brief comeback to space and then a very personal interview with the head of a horseman [02:22] MasterZen: hahahaha [02:23] Aeson: and if we miss... perhaps the russian programming will finish the job? [02:23] Aeson: what do they show in russia anyways? [02:24] Shiber: Mostly female exercisers from what I've managed to pick up [02:24] Trip: GS has taken over the chat with their spam! [02:24] MasterZen: hot female exercisers? [02:24] Aeson: it's a gift Trip [02:24] Trip: that's what I tell people :P [02:24] Trip: but they're not very accepting [02:24] Shiber: Btw, did you know that back in the 60s, the US considered blowing up a nuclear device on the moon and timing it so that it would be visible in Moscow's night sky? [02:25] Aeson: the gift of spam? [02:25] Shiber: You know, the cold war and all [02:25] Shiber: That was before Dr. Evil built his Lunar Base and that giant "laser", of course [02:25] Aeson: that would have been something to see [02:25] Aeson: they should do it for the 4th of july...only timed so that we can see it here in the continental US [02:25] Shiber: Yeah... and from 3.8 lightseconds away, it wouldn't even melt your eyeballs so you could look at it directly! [02:26] Shiber: Much better than an eclipse if you're asking me [02:26] MasterZen: what a show.. [02:26] Aeson: So I guess the female exercisers may prove useful after all [02:26] Aeson: it seems GoW is distracted... [02:27] MasterZen: nah, we're letting you hog our channel while we take your cities [02:27] Shiber: I think they're busy planning the funerals of those poor horsemen [02:27] Aeson: Didn't you notice? We disbanded them all... cept we gave 2 to Lux [02:28] Aeson: now we can consolidate our forces [02:28] Panzer32: personally, I'm playing my own PTW game (taking out the Persians actually ) [02:28] Shiber: Cool, same as us! [02:28] MasterZen: hahahaha [02:28] MasterZen: good one Shiber [02:28] Panzer32: want some hints? [02:28] Trip: [02:28] Aeson: we could use some [02:29] Panzer32: get Gunpowder [02:29] Panzer32: actually, the best way is with modern armour... [02:29] Trip: ICBMs are cool [02:29] Trip: research those :P [02:29] MasterZen: better yet, try getting some from goody huts [02:29] Aeson: like have you guys found any way to take out a stack of 20 Immortals with a tech? [02:29] Aeson: cause we sure can research fast [02:29] Aeson: hmmm... actually we were headed for the printing press [02:30] Panzer32: so you can print all your propaganda quickly, easily, and efficiently? [02:30] Trip: so you can make the Great Libarary obsolete! [02:30] Aeson: we figure they make better projectiles than what we are using now [02:30] Panzer32: printing presses make good torture weapons though [02:30] Aeson: (mainly SirRalph... he packs quite a punch, but we are running low on ammo) [02:31] * Shiber is now known as Shiber[Anime] [02:31] MasterZen: you are using Sir Ralph as ammo? LoL [02:31] Shiber[Anime]: Gonna watch some anime now (RahXephon, Ep. 4) [02:31] Trip: :P [02:31] Aeson: bye Shiber [02:31] Shiber[Anime]: cya [02:32] Aeson: Is there any other official business to attend to? [02:32] Aeson: er... other might be misplaced [02:32] * FrustratedPoet has quit IRC (Quit: ) [02:32] * Trip is now known as Trip[gone] [02:33] Aeson: Well, thanks for the chat guys. [02:33] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: ) [02:35] MasterZen: ooh party's over [02:43] Panzer32: should Shiber go? [02:43] * Shiber[Anime] is now known as Shiber [02:44] Shiber: cya tomorrow [02:44] * Disconnected Session Close: Sat Apr 19 02:44:07 2003

I did wrong to brag about our retaliation force. The psychological shock that GoW would have gotten when they opened the turn and realized that their horsies were gone would have been much greater had they not been prepared for this possibility.
Still, it amazes me how both Vox and GoW could make the same stupid mistake and land on the shores of an industrious civilization, tempted by an undefended city or a single warrior, and not consider the possibility that there's a mobile force within range of their units.

	19-04-2003 15:51									#432
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Okay, suppose GoW land units. If we don't want to spoil private communications, we might tell it in such a way that we simply hint at the ruse, instead of telling the rest it was proposed to us. It would have the same effect, and if done right, it would be honorable, I think, while not pissing off GoW for the rest of the game.

Suppose we post this to the public forum, if we see GoW's units:
"We have been invaded by 2 GoW horsies. We don't know their intentions, but must respond in force, which we don't like. Therefore, the horses have been removed from our territory, meaning GoW and GS are currently at war. We don't want this war, we have enough on our minds to fend off 2 teams right now, but we will defend our territory, and have ample opportunity to keep all GoW forces from conquering our cities with whatever their little boats can land.

Why would GoW attack us now? Sure, we might appear weak now that we are under attack, and any warmonging team is invited to try to take advantage of that situation, if they think they can gain from that. But how could GoW gain in this? They can't seriously think we will simply let them walk all over our territory, nor can they think that even if they manage to take one of our border towns, it will be theirs for long. So what can be the reason for this?

We see 3 possible reasons, a combination of which might apply. Maybe there are more, maybe there are less, but this is how it looks to us:
- GoW might be under contract from Vox. They have played a ruse before, which was superbly done, and could only be performed better if Vox had 'invaded' Port isolation one turn earlier, instead of attacking us first. It's not that wild a guess that Vox has paid GoW not only to play the invasion, but also to declare war on us, trying to disturb our defenses by opening a second front. Everybody knows that Vox had plenty of cash, which partly they used on immortal upgrades, maybe some gold was left to pay off GoW.

- this may be a ruse from GoW, trying to convince others on their continent that, by going oversea, their home territory would be ill-defended. The amount of forces suggests something like that, those 2 horsies make for a laughable invasion force, not even a spear was included to keep what they gained.

- This may be a way for GoW to get into a war with us, signaling to them that the deal we have currently going (an NDA for another 9 turns on Feudalism) is not to be kept. Currently, they have not broken a deal with us, but if they sell / give Feud to another team, they too are breaking a treaty with us. Short term gains, creating a long term enemy is not always a good deal."

DeepO

	19-04-2003 16:11									#433
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Thanks for the log...

I don't believe it. They may be talking about our massed workers, but they too can read the power graph, and see at the mil advisor. They can't assume to conquer a city, and even if they would be so gullible, they can not think they can keep it. The thing I find most frustrating about many of the other teams is that they try to play dumb when dealing with us, assuming we regard all other teams as idiots, and therefore could make mistakes when it comes to assessing ones strength.

They have to realise, that even if Vox is at the brink of attacking, we can handle a couple of horsies on hills. Our biggest problem are the mountains, it wouldn't even distrct us from defending against Vox.

The only reason I can see is that this is a coordinated attack with Vox, but even then, I doubt 2 WCs are going to make a difference. If Vox has provided screenshots, and asked for specific timing (now is the best time for them to invade us, as Vox will be next to our city too), I can imagine it: this would divert 2 WCs from our stack, meaning that Vox could hope to cross grassland at the same time.

We'll see when we get the save.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 16:40									#434
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Can they realistically have landed a more serious amount of troops?
They (GoW) have more then 1 harbor city to have build galley's, if they ferried units to Vox and again around Elipolis?
-
I would expect at least two spears and two horses on that hill.

	19-04-2003 16:58									#435
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Btw, how many WCs are there in Arashi? 2 vets and 1 elite, right? There's also a catapult there (which we can move 7 and then fire at the horses, right?) and some swordsmen, IIRC. How many of those are there?

	19-04-2003 18:04									#436
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Shiber, moving the catapult 7 would mean we lose it next turn to a bunch of immortals. Not the best idea

Maybe they have brought more troops, they have 2 galleys near us, so another 2 spears is possible. However, is that realistical? Sure, they told us that only 2 horsies were in those boats, but also that both were transferred on the first boat, the other one being empty (which was supposed to scout for us). In reality, they used the filled boat for scouting, so the other one could have returned home, to pick up some troops, and would nearly get here in time, I think.

So theoretically, I think it's possible, but they also know we have pikes and med inf, and they did not have the time to load pikes. Further, they aren't doing superbly on troop strength, if we already passed them in the mil advisor, and they have nearly as many cities, and more territory to defend. We are cramming to get our defenses together, how could they spare 4 units on a long distance war? That would mean 15% of their forces or about that, which is very significantly if you really expect a war on your home turf.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 18:10									#437
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I agree it's a strange move, but just to land with 2 horsie is too.

They are not even helping Vox with this (maybe a little), they would have better dropping their units in the south or something like that...

	19-04-2003 18:32									#438
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Shiber, moving the catapult 7 would mean we lose it next turn to a bunch of immortals. Not the best idea

Oops. I'm blind as a bat without the grid.

	19-04-2003 18:36									#439
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Well, the catapult could move 14, and strike at the same tile without being dangerous to lose it. But I don't think our generals are going to do that to fend of horsies, when a couple of immortals are only 1 tile away.

And Alva, I can't agree more, landing with 2 horsies is either dumb (whiich I don't buy), or signals something else, bigger, something we don't have enough info to see what's going on. I would expect some more troops as well, if only GoW could spare them from their defense.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 22:11									#440
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We probably want that cat in Arashi to deal with the main Voxian attack.

But our WCs should attack and destroy the GoW landing party.

Ok, gotta run fellas... this will probably be over by the time I log on again. Damn!

-Arrian

	19-04-2003 22:24									#441
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You can say that I'm counting my eggs before I have them, but... I did some math, with the help of CFC's Combat Calculator.
I take it that we have 3 vet WCs and one healthy elite within range of GoW's two horses. That means that in order for GoW to remain with any forces on our continent after we're done attacking, they'll have to win three out of four battles - one vs. an elite, two vs. vets.
Having taken the worse possible case (two elite horsemen), I came to the result that GoW's chances of survival are 32.8% * 47.3% * 47.3% ~ 7.34%. Nice.
Next turn, we'll know for sure whether we are absolutely cursed or whether we have a chance in this game. :hope:

	19-04-2003 22:30									#442
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Did you put the defenders on a hill?

	19-04-2003 22:34									#443
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I have.
Isn't it amazing?

Edit: I hope I haven't made any idiotic mistakes.
Btw, there's a chance that an immortal will win a defensive battle and get upgraded. An upgrade regenerates one HP, so it could slightly throw off my results. Still, I'd neglect this effect, since upgrades are more rare when a unit wins a defensive battle (AFAIK), and chances are that our WCs will retreat before losing the battle (we're talking vets and an elite here).

Last edited by Shiber on 19-04-2003 at 22:39

	19-04-2003 23:05									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Btw, there's a chance that an immortal will win a defensive battle and get upgraded.

Do you mean a Horseman? I thought you said they were elites anyway...

	19-04-2003 23:30									#445
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One thing overlooked so far, I think, is that Vox might have moved their 3 immortal, 1 spear (?) stack A88 to M6 on the road. We would then have to take out that stack to get to the horses.

	19-04-2003 23:31									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Do you mean a Horseman?

#1
Yes, I do.

quote: I thought you said they were elites anyway...

#2
I'm so stupid. I forgot that I assumed the worse case...
Thanks for correcting me Theseus.

	19-04-2003 23:40									#447
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I think GF's comment to me was true. They were trying to goad one of us into making a stink on the public forums about them landing...when they didn't really land. There just isn't anything else to gain by lying and saying they didn't land. We see the truth before anything can change anyways.

Of course telling me doesn't fit either... who knows. Maybe they are hoping we don't notice their Horsemen on our shores?

	19-04-2003 23:42									#448
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel One thing overlooked so far, I think, is that Vox might have moved their 3 immortal, 1 spear (?) stack A88 to M6 on the road. We would then have to take out that stack to get to the horses.

If I were Vox, and I knew nothing about GoW's attack (major assumption here), I'd actually move 4, to M9. If you're opening a second front, it's wiser to keep the two as far away from each other IMHO - that way less defenders on one front will be able to double as defenders on the second front (not that this rule would apply in this particular case, but Vox doesn't know what we have in Arashi).
In any case, I'm crossing my fingers that they haven't moved to M6.

	21-04-2003 13:57									#449
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My own thoughts: let's just not respond to this. They've probably hoped that we'd scream war on the public forum. Obviously that didn't happen, so let's just not talk about this anymore - any mention of how their plan completely failed will only make them mad.
With any luck, they'll pretend that we have normal relations again and respect the NDA.

	21-04-2003 16:19									#450
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I still think it would be a good idea to post one little sentence to GF: "GF, please check the military advisor before landing troops on our territory"
Of course they will do it anyway, but it is a subtle threat, and shows that we are serious when it comes to not being crossed.

If we want a real threat, we can always say: "GF, what would happen if we would go full steam on Chivalry, and giving it to ND if they agree to attack you 2 turns after receiving it? That would mean Ansar's in 7 turns on your territory..."

DeepO