09-03-2003 19:30									#121
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literature for contact with lego: sounds a good idea, Vox can get MM from us. Added advantage is that if both us and Vox offer literature to GoW, they will never expect us to be an alliance.

DeepO

	09-03-2003 20:18									#122
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2 more messages received, see the GoW diplo thread.

	09-03-2003 21:06									#123
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Eek, they want to couple Philosophy with the deal.
We can answer that we do not want to purchase Philosophy for any price since we have "already made some investments into it". If we're lucky, they'll think that we are already deep into researching Philosophy.

	09-03-2003 22:30									#124
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Yes, just write them that we're not interested in Philosophy.

	09-03-2003 22:53									#125
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Vox isn't selling it, are they?

Maybe add something like;
"Is that an assumption on when you will have researched it?"

	09-03-2003 23:38									#126
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Good idea.

	10-03-2003 01:11									#127
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I don't think it's a good idea- we tell them we're not interested in the tech, but want to know when they're done researching it?

We can just ask Vox about it, i'm sure they'll tell us.

	10-03-2003 01:21									#128
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Better to ask Vox about whether they are selling it around or not.

	10-03-2003 01:46									#129
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I don't think it's a good idea- we tell them we're not interested in the tech, but want to know when they're done researching it?

The trick is to first ask whether they're done researching it already, wait for their reply, and afterwards reply with an ambiguous message such as this: (wording should be made prettier and "diplomatic", of course) after much discussion and debate inside the team, we decided not to purchase Philosophy from your team. We have already made some investments into Philosophy, before we received your offer, and we would not like to waste the resources that we have already invested into acquiring Philosophy. However, we would be like to deal with you for the contact with Legoland.
Pretty ambiguous, I think. Does this mean that they paid some other civ for Philosophy, or that they've already begun researching it themselves? They'll never know, and they'll be so busy trying to guess what we did that they won't realized that we actually queried them for a hint for where they got Philosophy from.

	10-03-2003 01:50									#130
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Sorry if my above post doesn't make any sense, I suddenly feel very tired and dizzy...

	10-03-2003 01:52									#131
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Okay, i've send HotE a reply- regarding the issues we've discussed before, as well as a brief response on his lateset offer.

	11-03-2003 02:50									#132
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HotE sure seems disappointed that we "research" philosophy. I'll try to tell him that pretty soon they won't have a monopoly on the contact, as more teams will have it, whether they sell it or not.
I'm sure he'll get the message- sell it soon, or we might find another source...

	11-03-2003 02:55									#133
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Just read the latest message... GoW are pondering the possibility of offering us Philosophy for a very discounted price. Damn they're persistant.
Anyway, I wouldn't tell them that Lego might make contact with some civs on their own, before GoW manages to sell their contact to all civs. I'd rather let them find out on their own, when it's too late...

	11-03-2003 04:45									#134
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Shiber, that's a given, that lego will continue on their happy journey around the continent. GoW knows that it has to be swift. I think that any delay we cause will make the price drop in itself.

Next message, simply ask them how much gold they need for it, and keep this up for a turn or two. By then, hopefully other teams will have contact, which means the price will plummet. If so, I suggest we buy it from GoW anyway, I'd rather give them a bit more cash then ND or RP.

DeepO

	11-03-2003 09:20									#135
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We already have Philosophy from Vox. GoW will see that we have it if they try to make an in-game offer and find that they can't offer it to us. So we do not need to get fancy in a way that will show us as dishonest (or at least very highly misleading) when GoW looks.

Nathan

	11-03-2003 17:05									#136
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Nathan, if you're responding to me: I was talking about the lego contact, not philosophy...

DeepO

	11-03-2003 21:44									#137
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Re: philosophy- don't worry, i've told them we will have it next turn, so we won't end up dishonest anyway.

See HotE's last note- of course he agreed to trade contact only, since there won't be other possiblities, at least not for Philosophy.
But one very important thing he clearly states: all the contacts GoW sold are for "personal use only".
I can't believe Lego was so eager to make a trade with the first one they saw, that they have given such a firm control of their contact to one team.
Anyway, this probably means the price will be pretty steep.

Any suggestions on what we might offer- how much gold? techs?

	11-03-2003 21:56									#138
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IMHO we should ask Lego is they intend to start sailing around the world on their own. If we find out that they do, then I would suggest that we take our time with the reply, and eventually send back something vague. GoW will soon realize that Lego is going to meet and greet the rest of the civs themselves, and the price will drop (DeepO explained it well ).

	11-03-2003 22:05									#139
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Btw, GoW have put us at a disadvantage when they asked for us to make the first price offer. If we don't mind waiting longer for the Lego contact, we can stall the negotiations (giving vague estimates but not naming any accurate prices) long enough for GoW to get nervous of fear that Lego might contact us themselves, and make their own price offer - thus reversing this situation and putting us at an advantage.

	11-03-2003 22:48									#140
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The latest messages from Lego have verified that GoW have indeed broken the clause prohobiting the distribution of CoL for a duration of 10 turns. However, Lego have asked that we do not let this surface, or this would severe their relations with GoW...
IMHO the best course of action would be to give Vox a call and ask to participate in their 40g for Map Making deal with GoW and contribute 20g. Once MM is acquired through this deal, we inform GoW that we have discovered indirectly, by comparing information from multiple sources, that they have broken our treaty and we do not intend to complete this deal and are going to keep the 100 gold guarantee. That way, the deal with GoW effectively changes from CoL + 30g for MM to CoL for MM + 80g.
Of course, this plan is completely irrelevant if we have already completed the deal with GoW in-game, which, IIRC, we have. Such a shame...

	11-03-2003 23:25									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So, do we confront them (GoW) with info or not ?

	11-03-2003 23:57									#142
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My advice:
- first of all, we need to do anything possible to keep legoland out of this. This also includes that I don't think it would be polite of us if we tell them we know from legoland that they got CoL from GoW.

- Second, there is no way GoW is going to get away with this. They need to pay

- Third, I think there is no option to recall the previous deal, and even if there was, I wouldn't consider it honorably. So no changes in our initial deal, as it will reflect bad on us.

- I would post a message to GoW (as mentioned in my message to lego):

quote: How come we get a message from legoland, in which they claim they are starting on republic, if you are the only ones in contact with them, and it is extremely unlikely they researched CoL themselves? Did you breach your own no-whoring clause? You still have 9 turns left before you are allowed to trade CoL onwards! We expect some compensation for this, if you want to regain our trust, or it won't be likely we are going to trade with you again. Make your own analysis on which team will get disadvantaged most from this possible embargo. It is highly unfortunate that this has happened, we considered GoW as one of the more honorabe teams, but it seems we were mistaken.

- Timing is critical, though. If we want to avoid the legos being disadvantaged, we need to make sure they do get CoL before we demand anything from GoW, or their deal is going to be delayed, and we have to deal with an angry legoland.

- Also, I think we should be firm in our message to GoW, however not too firm. We could use them later on, I don't want to p!ss them off...

DeepO

	12-03-2003 00:07									#143
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It's funny how teams will shoot themselves in the foot by trying to be too cute with their diplomacy. We were fine without the no-whoring clause, and they pushed it onto us just to break the deal... Now both we and Lego are going to be more careful in deals with GoW.

I think we should either 'let it pass' (on the surface) for now, or explain to GoW that we don't believe that Lego was able to research MM, CoL, and Philosophy on their own at the same rate that the 5 teams in contact were able to between them. Give them a chance to confess and offer to make up the difference somehow. If we word it properly it is pretty clear that we can come to this assumption without involving Lego past 'they have the capability of researching The Republic'. Our contact on this point would be better made after the deal has gone through though.

In the meantime, we now have a reason for any future conflict with GoW. If we end up with a military buildup in our GA to hit Vox, most of our forces will be in the N, and GoW at that point becomes a much easier target than RP. Not to mention the 11 extra 30 shield units we can expect by not building the Great Lighthouse.

I would think Lego might be looking for a foothold on the main continent, and if ND is looking for a target as well... it could mean no one ever has to deal with Riders... Lego's most valuable terrain on BOB would be what is closest to it, if nothing else, it gives them more warning time of an invasion. ND stands to gain the most useful territory. E GoW territory might be very useful to us if we end up with an FP in former Vox lands. I think it's an alliance that could work for all 3, so a definite possibility.

It depends on which direction we want to go. 'Compensation' for this doesn't have to come right now.

	12-03-2003 00:11									#144
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Excellent wording on that proposal for a PM to GoW. I fully accept it.
I also agree with your comments regarding the timing of this message. As you said, we don't want GoW to cancel the CoL deal with Lego and piss off our new friends. I would add that we should be glad that GoW violated the no-whoring clause, because GoW could have kept us from selling CoL to Legoland one way or another, but now that they've violated their own clause, we can demand a compensation from GoW... possibly a large discount for contact with Lego, or free contact altogether - they might go this far if they realize that if word of this leaks out, it could very well mark the beginning of the end of GoW.

	12-03-2003 00:18									#145
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free contact would be the minimum, I'd say. I do agree with Aeson that perhaps we should be able to get our compensation later in the form of their land, however we don't need any excuse to attack anyone, and GoW would be one of the best ways to keep either ND or RP busy while we pillage their cities.

DeepO

	12-03-2003 18:38									#146
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I'll send HotE a message the moment CoL is in Lego's hands, to make sure they won't suffer.

DeepO's proposed message looks good to me- but i was thinking of something like this: we imply to them that it might be an accident, and although we are most upset of their violation, a compensation could help them regain their trust. I'll also make sure they understand the consequences of refusal- labeling the GoW as untrustworthy by the GS, what likely to be followed by an embargo (also stating who would be at a greater disadvantage as a result), and also a possible public declaration...

As for breaking the treaty from our end- too late for that i guess- we have already sent them the money. (i wouldn't have recommended this course of action anyhow).

	12-03-2003 19:15									#147
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Could you post you message here, before sending it Zeit?
As it is a rather delicate matter, I would prefer it to be checked out by a few native english speakers

Please, don't take this as an insult, your english is more then good, but, well, you know what I'm trying to say .

	12-03-2003 19:57									#148
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Sure thing, i'll post it here. No offense taken.

I'll have to say this though, i don't really like using other people exact words, unless i use it as a quote, of course. So, please post reservations, additions you like to be inserted or whatever, and i'll intergrate these. but please don't be suprised or upset if i use my own writing style, i just have to feel comfortable with what i send.
I'm sorry if you felt i was using bad wording, or over simplified language, etc. in my previous posts, please correct me and add whatever you feel like. Please tell me if you think i said something wrong, as i have the feeling i was doing a pretty good job.

	12-03-2003 20:30									#149
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Zeit, you are doing a most excellent job

But as I said, this one is very delicate and is likely to be analysed over and over (by GoW), therefore one or two minor errors (be they vocabular or grammar) can have (an unwanted) impact on their actions.

Look at it as a legal document, which even in our own language is hard enough to read (let alone understand :hmmm, it's almost impossible to do in a (still ) foreign one.

	13-03-2003 02:38									#150
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Thank you alva, i think i'm blushing...

Forget about that stern message- check NYE update re: UnO's message.

It seems the GoW are more honorable than we believed, and a lot more disorganized as well...
Compensation, anyone?

Contact with Lego, for free? with gold? a promise to buy future tech?

Last edited by zeit on 13-03-2003 at 02:52