07-03-2003 05:39									#31
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My message re: Iron and Lux:

quote: Hot_Enamel, Honorable consul of the Glory of War. The news of Lux demise caught me by suprised- when i was away from the boards for some 24 hours. Indeed, this incident of Vox finishing off Lux does not contribute to the regional stability, things have been delicate before, and abrupt moves such as this one does remind us to be on constant watch- the world of Civ 3 MP can treacherous and unforgiving. I believe some explanation on our hand regarding the safe heaven Lux used to have in our continent is in order. I want to stress out, that Vox sprung their plan to bring Lux here without our approval. Once it was presented to us a given, we decided to try and live with it, rather than risk an escallation of tensions, and possibly even war, with Vox. We have witnessed the growing tension between those you referred to as "the puppet and its master". We did not expect such a move from Vox, and could only guess what led them to this. That is not to say that we were not concerned with our own interests when handling the situation- we were quite aware of the unexpected nature of Lux and the liability their staying here was. Our efforts to pacify the two faction did not succeed, and the outcome is known to all. Regarding the Iron trade- we obviously can't carry that out right now- as there is no trading route between our two nations. Even if such trade is possible, we cannot promise it will be carried out- iron surpluses are always in need, if the unfortunate happens, and one source is depleted. We once again say- this trade will probably be possible, and will be sought after by our team, but we cannot promise anything right now, and wouldn't want you to make plans about the future. We also suggest you connect the Iron with a colony- because of the risk of major war erupting, which are a great concern to us- the outcome of which could result in the emergence of an unstopable superpower, which i think is a common interest to both our teams. I hope things are cooling down on BOB, i don't like seeing abrupt and untimely ends like the one Lux suffered- although i can possibly understand the motives behind this. In this regard how is the GoW-ND Luxian land division negotiation going? With Regards. Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	07-03-2003 21:00									#32
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A reply from HotE:
7/3 15:04

quote: Zeit, I am pleased that you have been upfront regarding the iron issue. As I have mentioned before, we have a source, but we don't really need it until Pikes & Knights become available. If ND was to strike, this would be the time to remove our source. We have been thinking of structuring a deal that would give us access for the one or two rounds that we need to do a mass upgrade. The 20 turn rule civ would be negated by a 1 turn "fake war" between us. But as you say, you cannot do a trade now, and we don't really need it yet until the next age. (And maybe we will never need it). You still need HBR right ? Perhaps this can be included in our payment to you ? We are obviously looking at other options, but there is no need to rush into any agreement now.... I am just tossing up ideas. My team has also asked me if you would reconsider a map trade. I realised you have already declined, but it does not hurt to ask again. Regarding our border negotiations with ND..... they are continuing. ND are slowly returning their swordmen to their home. They settled a new city this round in the East. But we knew this already, as we are letting each other know our settlement locations. There have been no disagreements yet, and it may just turn out that the borders will be self defined by who gets their first. You seem interested, and the information is not classified, so if anything is settled, I will let you know. And finally, I would like to ask if your could clarify some of the rumours. Vox indicated that they have "shared" some of the money they got from Lux. Certainly we did not get any, so we have assumed it was the GS team. If this is true, then firstly, congratulations, and secondly, perhaps the Vox-GS teams are a lot closer than we perceived ? Again, this is truly good news, as we certainly do not want yet another war so early in the game. I am obviously just fishing for some gossip here... anything shared will be kept confidential of course. Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

	09-03-2003 20:15									#33
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3 messages from GoW, coming in this order:

First, from Hot Enamel

quote: Sir Ralph, The GoW has just made contact with Legoland. I sent the below email to Zeit, but I because of its importance, I am sending it to a few other members. Regards Hot_Enamel - - - - - - - - Urgent Message - The GoW have made contact with the lost civilisation of Legoland. This occurred on the year 1300bc. Zeit, I will be sending this to a couple of your members as I want to ensure you get this message to your team ASAP. Obviously, the GoW team is keen to share this contact with the rest of the world. The GoW had made a considerable investment in studying MapMaking and building galleys (Prebuilds for your info Zeit), and we would like to recoup some of that cost. I have been authorised to offer you contact with Legoland. This information has only just been posted on our forum, so I do not know any other details. Could you please contact us ASAP with your offer. We are being pretty flexible...Gold, GPT, Maps , tech, Discount on next tech. Zeit, I live in a terrible Timezone, If you want contact ASAP, then feel free to PM GF direct. Otherwise any email you send me may take another half day for me to read it. I want to give you the best chance to make first contact. All the other teams are being notified. I hope we can deal soon. P.S. My ISP has had a few problems, and a couple of emails I sent did not get through. I did send and email to you 24 hours ago, and I just want to make sure you got it....(It had nothing about Lego in it) Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

Second, from Ghengis Frab

quote: What would GS being willing to offer for contact with Lego this turn and Philosophy next turn?

Third, from Hot Enamel

quote: Sir Ralph, We are changing the offer We are selling Contact with Lego and the tech Philosophy grouped as 1 offer. Same flexability as before, your offer can include anything. Although, as we are selling a technology as well, we would like a tech in return. We have done trades before which included offers on future tech, and anything like that would be OK with us. We will not be seeking a $$ guarantee...your word that you will gift us a future tech will be fine. Regards

	10-03-2003 02:43									#34
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My message to HotE, about his questions and the contact offer:

quote: Hot_Enamel, consul of the Glory of War. I got your last 3 messages, and i'm once again sorry for not contacting you earlier. Now that things become urgent for you, i'll reply without delay. You were concerned with how the Luxian situation worked for us, and what Vox had "shared". The issue is more complex than a simple matter of sharing. Vox decision for admitting Lux entry into our continent was made without discussing it with us. As you probably realize, we didn't like the idea of Lux taking refuge here, for several reasons. One of them may be the reputation Lux had for stirring up trouble, but you can also imagine the obvious diplomatic liability. In addition to that, Portia's location was troublesome for the GS. Therefor, we decided a compensation is in order- our responsibilty in keeping the Lux-Vox affair secretly, having Lux as a close neighbor, and the possible degradation of our international relations were our investment in this. The compensation was supposed to come from Lux, and in fact it has, but technically it was Vox who has given it too us. I'll save you the details of the entire negotiation process, but i'm pretty sure this information satisfies you, and answers you questions. As for the WM trade- the GS doesn't see any compelling reason to make that trade right now. I'm sure you can understand our desire to keep this sensitive piece of information to ourselves, for the time being. The HBR trade: Although i'm sure you are quite eager to sell the tech for us, at what you see as bargain price, this tech has no serious significance for us, as we have War Chariots instead of Horsemen. This tech was already obtained by our team, as part of a tech arrangement, in which it played a minor role. As for your latest offer for the Legoland conact along with Philosophy: we are discussing this matter at our boards as i right this letter to you. Our team is very interested in the contact, obviously, but not so much in philosophy- we have already put some investment into it, and are not interested in buying it. I hope a deal involving only the contact on your part in plausible for you, but i'm afraid we cannot offer you anything for Philosophy. With great respect Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	11-03-2003 02:42									#35
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HotE's brief response:
10/3 01:03

quote: Thankyou Zeit, It is truely unfortunate that you are also studying Philosophy as well. I was not aware. Let me know..or PM direct to GF.. any of your queries or offers. Perhaps we can offer you a heavily discounted offer for Philosophy. I will discuss this with our team Hot_Enamel of the GoW

	11-03-2003 03:03									#36
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my reply:

quote: Hot_Enamel, honored consul of the Glory of War, I'm sorry about Philosophy- a deal involving this tech will not be possible, as this tech will be in our possesion by the next turn. As for the contact- i certainly hope a deal can be worked out- we are very much interested in getting the contact. You should take into consideration that pretty soon other teams will have contact with Legoland, and the price will surely drop by then. So far, we have worked out trades for the benefit of our both, and we would like to keep on doing that. I hope your team will not pass this opportunity. Best of luck in your trades. Regards Zeit, Chief diplomat of the Gathering Storm

	11-03-2003 21:38									#37
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HotE's message, regarding Lego contact:

quote: Thankyou for your response. Given your circumstances, of course we can trade for contact only. I should mention however, that the GoW team has paid dearly for first contact, and a clause on the sale of this contact includes that it cannot be resold...ever. This will ensure that the GoW will recoup its losses associated making Lego contact, and that the price will not drop too low. ie you will not be able to buy contact form any other team other than the GoW, and you will not be permitted to resell it. The GoW is certainly pleased that our trading has been profitable for both parties. Our strategy is to form these relationships with all of the teams. Some have been more open than others. Please consider your offer... Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

	13-03-2003 02:25									#38
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Received from UnOrthOdOx:

Subject: Glory of War seeks an audience

quote: Honorable zeit, It is with a heavy heart that I must approach you today. There seems to have been a mistake having occured within Glory of War headquarters where one of our members accidentally offered Code of Laws in a deal to Legoland. Legoland agreed to this deal, but when the deal was presented to GoW as a whole, it was immediately recognized that this was in violation of the no-trade clause that was agreed to in the original deal with Gathering Storm. The deal has not been completed as of now with Legoland, but it is their intention that it will go through, despite our explaination of the situation. We are asking, therefore if there is some form of compensation that we can offer GS in order to make up for the mistake that was made in violation of our trade that will allow us to continue the trade with Legoland? Respectfully, UnOrthOdOx, Joint foreign affairs consul of the GoW team

	13-03-2003 03:05									#39
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A message to Uno, regarding the CoL incident:

quote: UnOrthOdOx, Respected consul of the Glory of War. It is sad that we have to discuss such an issue in the first communication we've had for such a long time. First, let me congratulate you for returning to office. Just clarify this one thing- who am i to send communiques to, Hot_Enamel, GF, Panzer32, or you? And now, for this pressing business. This issue is of great concern to our team- we hold the agreements we sign with high regard, and see this breach as a serious one. Yet, it seems like your team is willing to work this thing out, so that all those involved are satisfied. We realize you wish to carry on with the deal you have with Legoland, and share this desire- we don't want this incident to possibly do more harm then it already has. But, as you said, we deserve certain compensation. Suggestion for proper compensation are currently discussed on our boards. When our team reaches a decision on the matter, which shouldn't take very long, i'll give you word of that. I hope this matter will be resolved quickly. Yours Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	13-03-2003 18:20									#40
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The reply from UnO:

quote: Honorable zeit, Hot_Enamel has taken over for me as the primary contact for your team. Panzer32 or GF can be copied as well if it is an urgent item. I am currently acting mostly as a backup for all positions. The item at hand was of such urgency to our team that we did not feel we could wait for the respective parties to come online. It was for this reason alone that I was the one to contact you, and the reason I copied nye when I saw you were not immediately online and that he was at that time. We take our agreements very seriously, and always work towards fulfilling them to the letter. We felt that we had no choice but to admit the mistake openly immediately and see to making amends. If all parites cannot be pleased, we will honor our deal with GS first, since it was the first penned, and must take precidence. Respectfully, UnOrthOdOx, Joint Foreign affairs consul for GoW

	13-03-2003 18:21									#41
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A message from HotE, re: CoL screw-up:

quote: Zeit, I am at work now....what can I say about the CoL screw up ???? It is clearly writen in our forums that we had a 10 turn no-trade clause. In the excitement of meeting Lego, 1 member offered it verbally in a deal, then (I believe) has actually offered it in the game. I have left my feelings known about this within our forum. We have given Lego a damn good trade and I think they are being unreasonable to allow us to back out of 1 part of the deal. They know the circumstances. I believe the only reason they will accept CoL is to ensure there will be bad relations between GoW & GS. I have told my team that we need to convince Lego to not accept the CoL, and then we give them something else. Most of our team agree (Some want to offer GS something in compensation). My timezone sux, and I am afraid I will have to let my team members figure something out. I am personally very embarrised over this situation, as I have worked very hard to try and mend our relations after the last fiasco. Regards Hot_Enamel

	13-03-2003 18:23									#42
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My reply to HotE, mostly updating him of what was said by and to UnO:

quote: Hot_Enamel, consul for the Glory of War. This matter was already presented to me by UnOrthOdOx. He has told me that you and Leog both prefer to carry with the deal, and some compensation will be given to us in return. We would also prefer this sort of solution to be reached- this way both the Lego-Gow and GoW-GS relations, and perhaps even the Lego-GS relations won't be hurt. Since a deal is a deal, and you have already offered the techs in game, we would rather some other solution is reached, so that no one is left with a sour taste in his mouth. If you are willing to discuss a proper compensation, and reach an agreement with the GS, we would be most pleased. I mustn't tell you how seriously we see this violation, so i'm sure you understand how much i want this issue to be quickly resolved, and this incident to be behind us. Yours Zeit, Chief diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	13-03-2003 21:01									#43
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A PM from GF:

quote: Can you meet me in the chatroom. We would like to know what we could offer GS to allow us to trade CoL to Lego. Perhaps half of all the gold we made from selling Philosophy and Contact with Lego?

I told him I'm not able to go to the chat right now, because I'm at work and can only write short posts. Perhaps one of our diplomats can contact GF?

	14-03-2003 01:42									#44
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From UnO:

quote: Honorable zeit, I aproach you once again in hopes that we can reach a consensus about the proper course of action reguarding the afore mentioned mistake. Hot_Enamel is currently at work, and Panzer32 is away for the week, so this is left to me at this time. It is our desire that we resolve this situation before we send along the save, which we currently have. In an interest to speed this along, I am prepared to make an offer now, without hearing what your team has considered adequate reparations. GoW is prepared to offer contact with Legoland, Philosophy, and half of the profits we earned from the selling of the Legoland contact as compensation for our mistake. Please present this to your team, and respond with an answer. I am currently experiencing some difficulty with connections, so I suggest you contact GF directly with the response. Thank you for your time, and may we meet on more pleasant terms in the future. Respectfully, UnOrthOdOx, Joint Foreign Affairs Consul of GoW

	14-03-2003 01:43									#45
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My reply, sent to GhengisFarb and UnO:

quote: GhengisFarb and UnOrthOdOx, respected consuls of the Glory of War. I have recieved a rather urgent message from UnOrthOdOx with an offer for compensation, so that your deal with the Legolanders can be carried out. I'm glad you were the ones to come with an offer, and i hope it is accepted by the team. UnOrthOdOx has told me you are holding the turn while waiting for an answer- how long do you still have? I don't think this should take long to decide, but i'm sure you understand why i want to be certain this is approved by the team, before i give you an concrete answer. I'll get back to you ASAP. Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	14-03-2003 06:48									#46
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To all the GoW consuls:

quote: Honorable consuls of the Glory of War! The time has come to set this thing behind us. I have recieved both GhengisFarb's and UnOthOdOx's letters, and realize the urgency in solving the matter, before you have to send the savefile onwards. The problem is that here were two , a bit different, offers for compensation, one from GhengisFarb and one from UnOrthOdOx. Both shared one thing, and it's Legoland contact, but were different in the additional gold compensation. I do not wish to influence the debate on your team, if such one exists, on what sum of gold is appropriate. Any of these offers is adequate, and will allow the GoW-Lego deal to be carried out without any reservations from us. In short, either contact with Lego plus half the gold you got from trading their contact, or contact with Lego plus half the gold you got from trading with Lego is fine by us. You may carry on with your deal with Lego, and send us their contact, as well as a sum of gold that reflects one of these two offers. Yours Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	14-03-2003 16:53									#47
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From HotE:

quote: Zeit, I am glad we have something which will allow us to compensate for this stupid incident. It should never of happen as our 10 turn agreement was clearly written in our forums. Like you, I believe a "deal is a deal", and I strongly encouraged our team to negotiate with Lego to stop them from accepting CoL. We paid much for first contact, and I am personally disappointed with Lego that they would budge. Many of my team agree with me. Our deal came first, and we attempted to honour it. It is my belief Lego was unreasonable and refuse to negotiate solely to hurt our diplomatic relations with GS. We have certainly haggled, argued and disagreed with other teams when it has come to trading tech, but this is the first time we have crossed a deal. Albeit an unintentional one. I do hope that this has not hurt our long term trading relationship. I am also happy, that you were able to achieve a settlement by dealing with Unorthodox and GF. As I have mentioned many times, my timezone does not allow to me to be active during these critical times. Feel free to contact them again if urgent action is required. Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

	14-03-2003 16:54									#48
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From GF:

quote: Agreed, we will send you contact with Lego plus half the gold we made from all selling Contact with them and Philosophy

	14-03-2003 16:55									#49
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Reply to GF:

quote: GhengisFarb, honorable consul of the Glory of War. Thank you, i consider this issue to be behind us, i hope you are not left with hard feelings. Just one clarification: do you mean all the gold from trades in which you sold the contact with Lego and philosophy, or half the gold from selling the contact, as well as giving us philosophy. I take it that it's the firts, since you know we already have the tech. Yours Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	14-03-2003 16:55									#50
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Reply to HotE:

quote: Hot_Enamel, consul of the Glory of War. I'm sure you are glad as i am that this is behind us. So far, communication with the GoW and you in particular have been satsifactory and has benefited both teams. As for incidents like this one- they certainly have a damaging potential, but after realizing your interest in solving this in a respectful manner, the impression i got is that GoW is serious in it's deisre to maintain close and friendly relations with the GS. I once again thank you, and hope this won't hurt our future dealings Respectfully, Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	15-03-2003 19:14									#51
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A reply from GF:

quote: Philosophy appears to be a moot point, so we sent you half the gold we made from selling contact with Lego to the other civs and half the gold we made from selling Philosophy to the other civs and half the gold we made from selling techs to Lego. Basically half of everything. We have not sold contact to Lego to Vox so if they do decide to pay us for it you will recieve half of that sale also.

And HotE:

quote: Definately no hard feelings from our side Zeit. Lego has certainly upset a lot of us here at GoW. I am letting GF come up with whatever deal he and Unortho have sent you. Regards

	16-03-2003 05:12									#52
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HotE announces Polytheism is for sale:

quote: Zeit, I am please to announce that the GoW has Polytheism for sale. We have had agreements from all other teams except yourselves and Vox. Therefore, as we try to negotiate a settlement with Vox, there will be a no-resell clause to Vox. Hope we can come to an arrangement Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

	17-03-2003 23:46									#53
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our refusal:

quote: Hot_Enamel, honorable consul of the Glory of War. I am sorry i was unable to address the issue of tech trade before you went ahead with your turn. Unfortunately, we've already have an arrangement for acquiring Polytheism, so i'm afraid we'll have to reject this offer. How are things faring on Bob? has tension finally decreased? I have not heard much from your continent for some, and hope things are alright. Kind Regards Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	18-03-2003 00:43									#54
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A chat I had with GF. I had contacted him for a PBEM game where he was over due, but he dragged the subject to the demogame.

quote: 20:31 <GhengisFarb> Oh, I'm getting to it. I got back from OCS last night and was too tired to play. What's this deal you and Lego are cooking up. 20:33 <GhengisFarb> Hello? 20:33 <SirRalph> There are some considerations, nothing yet worth to mention. I'm pretty much out of data, concerning diplomacy, due to limited time. 20:34 <GhengisFarb> I serously need to ask what's up with this GS/Vox Alliance? Bob is getting really serious about building an anti GS/Vox Military pact. 20:34 <SirRalph> Why do you see us as a treat? 20:34 <GhengisFarb> A treat? 20:35 <GhengisFarb> With chocolate coating? 20:36 <SirRalph> don't play dumb, it was a typo. I'm not a native speaker after all 20:36 <GhengisFarb> Its because both of your teams are very isolationist and drag out trade/treaty negotiations for days. 20:37 <SirRalph> we had several research agreements yet out of the days we still were isolated. Is this wrong? 20:39 <GhengisFarb> I don't know. I have no idea what your deals were. So what your saying is that all other teams but Vox and Gs should not offer you any deals until the end of the Medieval age as you have already made agreements with each other? 20:41 <SirRalph> why do you think that? in fact, we have been trading with the civs on Bob as well. Except Lux, that is. 20:42 <GhengisFarb> Ah 20:43 <SirRalph> there's no such a thing like a military alliance or so between us and Vox. 20:44 <GhengisFarb> Ok 20:44 <SirRalph> I got to go. Don't forget our PBEM 20:44 <GhengisFarb> i just emailed it. 20:45 <SirRalph> thanks and bye 20:45 <GhengisFarb> bye

	18-03-2003 23:05									#55
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A message for HotE, with a proposal for a chat- to straighten out issues that were raised in the above chat:

quote: Honorable Hot_Enamel, consul of the Glory of War. Greetings from the Gatherig Storm. I have read the log of GhengisFarb and Sir Ralph's short chat, and picked up what seems like frustration on your side. I realize it must by difficult for you to see our refusal, while making those deals with someone else, namely Vox. When I add to that the recent CoL incident, i can see where this frustration is coming from. You have made some effort in negotiating techs with us, while sometimes facing repeated refusals I'm sure that if we are given an adequate opportunity to explain our reasoning, while also sharing our future plans regarding technology research, and hopefuly maintain a cooperative relationship. I do not pretend to know where the winds blow in the Glory of War, but i'll take GF's words as those who represent the general feeling in your team, with regard to the tech dealings with us, especially when said directly to one of our team's officials. Therefor, i suggest we organize a meeting between representatives of both teams, in order to straighten things out, as well as make plans for the future. Please tell me what you think of this, what time suits you, so that it could arranged. Cordially Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	19-03-2003 23:21									#56
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A message from HotE- with some answers, and questions:

quote: Zeit, My apologies for not responding to your previous email, there has been much discussion on our boards. And I must say, that this email has caught me by surprise. GF had not posted any details of any conversation he had with Sir Ralph. I requested details from him, and he posted a "general" description of the conversation. (Perhaps you can send me your log so I can see exactly what was said, as I am quite sure he does not have a copy) I assume you are concerned about his reference that Vox & GS seem to be tied closer to each other than the GoW assumed. I can tell you that many of our team were not surprised that you found other means to acquire Polytheism. We were wondering how quickly it would fall into your hands after our trade with Vox. The fact that you did not even offer anything for it or even attempt to bargain for the best price between us and Vox simply changed the attitude of "some" of our members from "mildly amused" that you have a ally, to "a little annoyed". Your email below has also mentions the "CoL" incident. I am unsure if you mention it because you maintain some bitterness ? If so, then you should let me know as the GoW accepts full responsibility for the screw up. I thought we had come to an arrangement that you were happy with, and I assume you received payment. If not, let me know and I will ensure it happens. For your information, there has been rumours between all the other teams of your alliance with Vox. Your reluctance to trade, to provide details of your political situation, to swap maps, has only fuelled ours and others suspicion. This Polytheism Trade is yet only another example. Zeit....I have a vested interest in maintaining good relations with your team. I do not wish to have to be the one to handle difficult negotiations between teams who do not see eye to eye. I think a chat would be in good order, however my timezone does not allow it. When I am on-line in the evening, it is very early in the morning in the states....I could not ask you to do it, nor would I expect you to ask me to get up at some ungodly hour to catch up with you. I have posted your request for a meeting on our forum. GF is our team leader, and if you want to clear the air, he would be the best to chat to as he can make appropriate agreements during the chat. I will repost your request again and pressure them to come up with a time. Perhaps you can suggest a time yourself ? PM GF if you want a quick response. I again offer you information on Bob. Tensions between the teams rise, and there is belief that there will be another war. This war will not benefit any of the Bob Nations but it looks like it will occur anyway. Your alliance with Vox is of a greatest concern, as we in particular, are closer to Vox than any other team. Vox are difficult to trade with and we have fondly dubbed them "New Lux" I am sure GF would bring this up, and if we could get assurances that you would not interfere during any war, it would surely ease our fears. Perhaps a Non-Aggression Pact (NAP) in the event of war between any of the three Bob Nations? We would obviously reciprocate and offer a NAP if Vox & GS ever go to war....but we believe this unlikely If anything is posted on our boards, I will let you know. Regards Hot_Enamel of the GoW

My reply (i hope i didn't spill too much...):

quote: Hot_Enamel, Honorable consul of the Glory of War. So many issues to address, and so little time... I'll start with the timezone issue- i'm from Israel, so i have no preference- Australia and the US are both quite far away. Before we schedule anything, i'd like to state out that we have no alliance with Vox, just a tech arrangement. As for the background of this arrangement, i'd leave that for our chat. Once again, to avoid any misunderstanding- our relations with Vox have nothing to do with any sort of military alliance, or MPP, or such sort of agreement. You said you are having difficulties with Vox- most of the GS members, including myself will wholeheartedly agree, and by now you already know we've had some experience with them, although they havn't been as devious as Lux have, it was quite tiring to deal with them. As for the resentment with which our refusal and secrecy is accepted- i'm sorry about that, but the GS takes this game quite seriously- no one has seen our lands, not even Vox, and we intend to keep it that way for as long as possible. I'm sorry i have been more talkative in the past, but although i am the Chief Diplomat, i act mostly as an ambassador and organizer- messages from our representatives, including mine, are logged, and important ones are being brought before the team before being sent- so you will hardly see any slip-ups one our part- which has its advantages, but also its disadvantages. Regarding the resolved CoL incident: no hard feelings from us, i was just raising it as an element that might lead to some frustration on your part- you have given us proper compensation, and you expect some more trust from our side, which is understandable. As for the happening on Bob- i hope you manage to steer your way out of trouble- GoW is a valuable trading partner for the GS, especially when ND continously ignores our out of game communiques, and RP, with a comfortable position on your continent, which obviously does not make a favorable option for trade. Should you need any help in the form of loan or any other favor- do not hesitate to ask. Our secrecy has surely hurt your trust in us- as lack of understanding brings mistrust, but i'm convinced that by communicating, understanding followed by beneficial cooperation can be reached. I would be very glad if you take part in any chat that is to follow this correspondence, quite frankly, i insist that you would, . I consider our communications as quite well, and would really want to have you there, as a representative of your team's diplomats. GF will surely want to be part of it as well, and i'm sure he will. I'll post times (GMT) on which i'll be available for chat- i'm sure that we can find a time that both you and GF could participate. 20/3, from 18:00 until 21/3 16:00. 22/3, from 08:00 until 23/3 16:00. Cordially Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	20-03-2003 22:50									#57
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The response, from HotE:

quote: Zeit, I have posted your message on our boards. But is was very quiet today...not sure why... so no-one really responded...I will follow them up again tomorrow. I am almost always on line around 2230...I am GMT +11, so I guess that means around 1130 GMT I will make sure I am on-line tomorrow night...It fits in with your time I think but only barely. Obviously, my American GoW team-mates will be sound asleep, but if the time is right for you, jump on and we can chat. I will be in the poly chat room Trust me when I say we value GS as a trading partner...we in fact value every team as a trading partner. But our main concern is having Vox only 1 sea tile away from our land. We have our own difficulties on Bob, but we are the only team who have the problem of "watching our back" as well. We have no reason to believe they will invade, but then again, we do not really know.. How GS fits in the picture with Vox How much land they have (are they rexing or are they building up military) What are they doing with all of their immortals Do they have iron ? Do they have immortals ? All these questions are getting us paranoid. We do not fear any team. We only fear what problems they will cause us if they become involved when/if war breaks out on Bob. We realise our Riders are considered dangerous. We also realise ND's Ansars are just as bad. GoW and ND live very close, and ND would love our excellent land And we know RP is causing ND grief from the south. Sooner or later, someone is going to do something stupid. Regs

	21-03-2003 19:44									#58
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Chat with GoW, times are GMT +2:00
Part I

quote: Session Start: Fri Mar 21 13:58:32 2003 Session Ident: #talks [13:58] * Now talking in #talks [13:58] * Shiber sets mode: +k negotiator * Some irrelevant chatter... cut to the point where Zeit arrives. [15:07] * zeit has joined #talks [15:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Hello Zeit [15:07] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: Greetings zeit [15:07] Zeit: Hi, sorry for being late, i had some technical difficulties [15:07] Zeit: but it's all fixed [15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: unfortunately I must take my leave [15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP [15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: Can't be late today [15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 3 star generals ? [15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: 3 different generals, only 1 is 3 star [15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: they can wait then [15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: LOL [15:08] Zeit: i'll just get my bearings then we can start [15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP [15:09] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: I trust this is in good hand anyway, will read all about it at lunch [15:09] * UnOrthOdOx[GoW] has quit IRC (Quit: ) [15:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Good Luck Unortho [15:09] Zeit: let's make sure he's not dissapointed... :) [15:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Panzer is in and out as well [15:10] Zeit: oh well, i hope Shiber is still here [15:10] Shiber[GS]: i'm here [15:10] * Shiber[GS] sets mode: +o zeit [15:10] -> *zeit* hi! [15:10] Zeit: thanks shiber [15:10] * Donegeal has joined #talks [15:10] Shiber[GS]: hi Donegeal! [15:10] Hiya guys! [15:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Now you guys are in trouble :) [15:11] * Donegeal is now known as Donegeal[GoW] [15:11] Zeit: hi don! [15:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: G'Day Don [15:11] Hello sirs... so what is going on? [15:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Havn't started yet [15:12] Zeit: we'll start pretty soon, just have to check a couple of things [15:12] ..and hope Unortho gets back.. [15:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Nope - He's gone [15:13] damn... oh well.. [15:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Whats the time in US ? [15:14] it is 0715 AM CST... [15:15] Zeit: okay, i think we can start [15:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK [15:17] Zeit: First, i'd like to clarfify this one thing about our relations with Vox. [15:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep [15:18] Zeit: It is of no military nature, like i said before, and includes no sort of protection pact [15:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If I was stuck on an island, with Persia, I would work damn hard on getting a MPP / alliance [15:19] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], that also depends on a lot of out-game factors [15:19] Shiber[GS]: for example, who are the people you are dealing with? [15:19] Shiber[GS]: are they stable? are they trustworthy? are they skillful at the game? [15:19] Zeit: that's right, but we believe common interests will maintain peace better than artifical NAP... [15:19] Shiber[GS]: very true. [15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You mean ND & RP ? [15:20] Zeit: vox [15:20] Zeit: oops, sorry [15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is a loose canon [15:20] Shiber[GS]: furthermore, a NAP has a defined expiration date [15:20] Shiber[GS]: that raises all kinds of problems [15:21] how? [15:21] Shiber[GS]: that is, some tend to see the turn that marks the end of the NAP as the turn that could start the war [15:21] Zeit: that would bring tension [15:21] Shiber[GS]: we were thinking that Vox might interpret a NAP this way: "we want to attack you in 30 turns, but we're building up right now so don't attack us in the meantime, okay?" [15:22] Panzer32[GoW]: we've had peaceful ends to NAPs, it seemed like neither team noticed it [15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Agreed - But you would renegotiate well before it ends and it they decline, you start to prepare [15:22] Panzer32[GoW]: thats why we give longer NAPs [15:22] Shiber[GS]: the thing with Vox is, we don't quite trust them [15:22] Zeit: well, look at how the NAP between Lux-RP ended up.., [15:22] Shiber[GS]: mostly because they're so unstable [15:23] Zeit: and have little confidence in their own play [15:23] Shiber[GS]: anyway, we've told you already - we don't have any NAPs or MPPs or any other such agreements with Vox. This cross-examination is unnecessary. [15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont really care if you do or dont [15:23] Shiber[GS]: why is it that GoW worries so much about Vox? [15:23] OK agreeed, but why should we believe you? [15:24] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], ????? [15:24] Shiber[GS]: I'm quite shocked to read this. [15:24] Zeit: there's no reason actually, but the past has shown we don't lie [15:24] Zeit: both of us [15:24] I don't think you have a NAP or MPP with Vox, but why should we believe you? [15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ok - [15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is our concern [15:24] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], you can take our word for it. That's all we can offer. [15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is hording money [15:25] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], explain please [15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Why are vox hording money ? [15:25] Shiber[GS]: how are they hording money? [15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Plan Gold ? [15:25] no... you could offer a map... [15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Warrior -> Immortals [15:25] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], even if we had a map of their territory, how would it prove that we don't have a NAP/MPP with Vox? [15:25] Zeit: maps are regarded highly confidential, and so far no one had a view of our lands [15:26] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they are hording up gold? And why do you think that they intend to attack your team in particular? [15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ok - [15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They tend to prefer money for tech [15:26] Shiber[GS]: Zeit is correct, and as far as we know, GoW hasn't traded maps with anyone yet either. [15:26] The fact that you refuse to give that info up make you shadey [15:26] Zeit: slow down, please, i have a hard time keeping up... :) [15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Gow has traded maps [15:26] Shiber[GS]: with whom? [15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: doesnt matter [15:27] Shiber[GS]: okay - why should we believe you? :p [15:27] Shiber[GS]: the fact that you refuse to tell us who you traded maps with makes you shadey [15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [15:27] Shiber[GS]: :p see what i mean? [15:27] Panzer32[GoW]: why should you not believe us? [15:27] Shiber[GS]: if you keep up this attitude, then we're not going to get anywhere [15:27] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], exactly. [15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We traded maps because we had an agreement [15:28] Zeit: anyway, this is the GS policy- our maps are very valuable, and won't be traded unless we have to [15:28] Shiber[GS]: now, if we want to get somewhere, we have to start trusting each other. [15:28] Zeit: that has nothing to do with our relation with vox, so please leave that out [15:28] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], Panzer32[GoW], so far your team has proven to be fair and honest. [15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: yep agreed [15:28] Shiber[GS]: So has ours, we believe. [15:28] Shiber[GS]: there's no reason why we shouldn't trust each other. [15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: YEs you have [15:28] guess its time to go exploring... [15:29] Zeit: we've kept some info to ourselves, and intend to keep doing that, that's no reason to say we're not to be trusted. [15:29] Panzer32[GoW]: so do we [15:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I will tell you what has us concerned [15:30] Zeit: we will tell you what we can, but the nature of your questions suggests we are to act as spies on Vox, why is that, are vox enemies to you? [15:30] Panzer32[GoW]: I think we have more to lose by trading maps to you than you do to us. [15:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are worried about warriors -> Immortal [15:30] Zeit: perhaps, than why end up with a lose-lose situation [15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is 1 tile from our continent [15:31] Zeit: so are we concerned with it, and keep an eye on the border [15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Our problem is - you dont seem concerned [15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You have a border agreement with the [15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Them [15:31] Panzer32[GoW]: Vox has the potential to be a direct threat. Like Cuba threatening US. [15:31] Shiber[GS]: yes, that's simply to save us the bother of REXing over growth [15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You have a tech alliance with them [15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Therefore it is not a giant leap to assume you have a MPP or other with them [15:32] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], we've told you already - there is no MPP between GS and Vox. [15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If they are building immortals and are not going to attack you [15:32] Zeit: it's not, but i tell you we have none, why are we back to square 1? [15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Then who do they attack [15:32] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they're not going to attack us? [15:32] Shiber[GS]: honestly, we don't know either [15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK - 1 step back [15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We assumed you had a MPP [15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: therefore we assume we would be their target [15:33] Shiber[GS]: okay, we understand where you're coming from and the logic behind your assumption - but it is false. [15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We can handle them 1 vs 1 [15:33] Shiber[GS]: i can guarantee you that [15:33] Zeit: But i hope that now you understand we don't have an MPP [15:33] Shiber[GS]: on my word [15:33] Zeit: Shiber - ; [15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK - No Probs [15:33] Zeit: ;) [15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is where we are coming from - no acusations [15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We can handle them 1 vs 1 [15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But if we are drawn into a Bob war ???? [15:34] Shiber[GS]: So, if I understand you correctly: you can handle Vox 1 on 1, but you are afraid that a war with Vox would leave you open to attacks from ND and RP? [15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We would need to cover two fronts [15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes [15:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We could do it ... but it would be a defensive war [15:35] Shiber[GS]: well, you know that GS has an interest in GoW. You are our best friends on Bob [15:35] Shiber[GS]: therefore, although i can't commit to anything, i am sure that we will do whatever we can within reasonable limits to help you out [15:36] Zeit: i concur [15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I think we would like to explore that [15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have no interest in your continent [15:36] Shiber[GS]: would GoW be interested in an agreement where GS were to attack Vox in case it declared war on you? [15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are concerned about Vox [15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That would be of great interest to us [15:37] Panzer32[GoW]: would it work the other way? Or only one way? [15:37] Shiber[GS]: alternatively, we can just ask Vox not to attack you. While we have no power over their decisions, it might sway them from the notion [15:37] Shiber... that is an interesting idea... [15:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: How can you ask that ? [15:38] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], we are confident on our side. [15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do you have that close of relations with them ? [15:38] Zeit: i hardly think our team would approve an MPP against Vox, but we could put some pressure on them [15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It would only come into effect, if war breaks out on Bob [15:38] Zeit: Of course, but wars break on Bob all the time... :) [15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Let Bob sort out their own problems without having to worry about Vox or GS [15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [15:39] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], hardly, but if we tell them something the sort of "we have heard this and that and we would suggest that you do not attack GoW", they might think that we're going to attack them in case they attack you - whether or not we actually have an agreement to do so [15:39] Panzer32[GoW]: I'm going to eat breakfast now... I will check here from time to time [15:39] Zeit: bon apetite [15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We would have to discuss the wording very carefully [15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We though Vox v GS war was inevitable [15:40] Shiber[GS]: in any case, we could try to work our a draft for an agreement where GS is obliged to attack Vox in case it attacks GoW (but not the other way around, as we see no need to this) [15:40] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], don't be so sure. Vox are scared of us AFAIK, and GS are not of imperialistic nature. [15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But when nothing happened...we jumped to the comclusion that you are in league [15:40] an exclusive MPP... [15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We know very little about Vox or GS [15:41] Shiber[GS]: sorry to deviate from the topic of our conversation, but do i lag? [15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This sort of intel helps us [15:41] Shiber[GS]: wait, let me try turning off P2P. [15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NO And BOOM! Blue Screen of Death for me. Zeit can fill in these few missing minutes. Session Start: Fri Mar 21 15:48:45 2003 Session Ident: #talks [15:48] * Now talking in #talks [15:48] Panzer32[GoW]: As I said, How much of the continent around Vox has been mapped by GS? [15:48] * Shiber is now known as Shiber[GS] [15:49] Shiber[GS]: back (computer crashed earlier) [15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: np [15:49] * zeit sets mode: +o Shiber[GS] [15:49] Zeit: okay, back to business [15:49] Zeit: :) [15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Panzer ... your question first [15:49] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW]: we have drawn a border line, and each team has explored a little beyond this line. [15:49] Shiber[GS]: plus, during talks, we gave each other general descriptions of the land that the other can't see [15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: is it 50-50 ? [15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: who got the better deal ? :) [15:50] may we have that description? [15:50] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we can't tell for sure, since as I sad we haven't mapped the entire continent, but I think that we got the better deal. [15:50] Zeit: no reason for that- done [15:50] Zeit: done [15:50] Zeit: donegeal [15:50] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], I don't think our team would mind telling you about Vox's lands, though we have to ask there first. [15:50] Don is fine... its easy to type... [15:51] Shiber[GS]: but as far as I'm concerned, we can provide you with intel regarding Vox's troops (those that we can see), their resources (what we know) and their lands (again, what we know) [15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep -- HE, Don & P32 [15:51] Zeit: HE= high explosive [15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [15:51] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], Vox also knows that we got the better deal. We agreed that GS is to get the larger part of the continent because without a border treaty, we would win in a REX race anyway [15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Well done :) [15:52] Zeit: what about you're devision of ex-Lux lands? [15:52] Shiber[GS]: we both agreed that GS could get more than what it secured for itself if both teams were to REX it out, but we also agreed that REXing is expensive, and comes at the expense of early growth and development [15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Again - Good deal [15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND & Gow have gone militaristic builds [15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP - Marking their territory [15:53] that seems very reasonable... if this is the case, why do you think Vox is a loose cannon? [15:53] Shiber[GS]: so we decided to get less of the continent than we could have gotten (so perhaps, thinking in those terms, Vox were the ones to get the better deal out of it?), but we secured the ancient age border-wise and thus allowed ourselves to develop our cities instead of going into a senseless REX war [15:54] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], it's our experience with Vox. [15:54] Shiber[GS]: first of all, it took us a LOOONG while to get to this agreement [15:54] Shiber[GS]: in the mean time, Vox kept provoking us [15:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: So they are aggressive ? [15:54] Shiber[GS]: later on, they brought in Lux - without asking us for our opinion. [15:54] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], more senseless than aggressive [15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That worrys us [15:55] Shiber[GS]: i don't think they were counting on an early war, IMHO they just thought that we would be scared and submit [15:56] Panzer32[GoW]: they wanted to hold off the war chariots until they get immortals... [15:56] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], perhaps [15:56] Shiber[GS]: but now we are several times more powerful than them production-wise, so they probably abandoned all plans for war with us by now [15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Again - That is what worries us [15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Why waste their immortals [15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They will want to attack someone [15:58] Zeit: what about your position on Bob, what have you gotten from the ex-Luxian lands? [15:58] -> *zeit* should we try to work on a draft for the agreement we talked about over the phone, while assuring GoW that if GS rejects it, then by no means this should imply that we have some sort of pact with Vox? [15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Its a land rush between us and ND [15:58] lux lands sucked... [15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - They arent great - no resources [15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We figured Sir Ralph would be very close to ND ? We are surprised that you dont deal with them much [15:58] that was part of the reason that the war happened... [15:58] *zeit* i don't know, it kind of beats itelf- to say it doesn't imply that... [15:59] Panzer32[GoW]: Settling them also just results in corrupt cities - too far away from capitol [15:59] -> *zeit* then let's hold this idea and raise it on the team's forum later instead [15:59] Zeit: we can't say that we don't deal with them, just not much of comm [15:59] *zeit* oka [15:59] -> *zeit* worst case - GS rejects it, but at least GoW won't hear about this [15:59] Zeit: so why don't you try to make a border treaty? [15:59] *zeit* that's right [16:00] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent stepped on each others toes yet [16:00] Zeit: to stop the silly settling contest? [16:00] Shiber[GS]: and mind me asking - how does RP fit into this? [16:00] Shiber[GS]: you said that they marked their territory. how? [16:01] Shiber[GS]: they just put up warriors and said "whatever's south of here is ours"? [16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If there is a RP - ND war, we would rather not have a border treaty [16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That was RP's method yes. [16:01] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], what about the luxian lands - did you divide them between ND and yourselves? [16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lots of jungle in the middle of Bob [16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber - no [16:01] Shiber[GS]: then who got Lux's lands? [16:02] like you said... not much Comm...

	21-03-2003 19:45									#59
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Part II

quote: [16:02] Zeit: I think he said they rather take their chance at grabbing those [16:02] Zeit: in the event of ND-RP war [16:02] Shiber[GS]: oh ok [16:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are telling each other where our settlers are going - and so far no problems [16:02] Shiber[GS]: oh, almost forgot... [16:02] * Shiber[GS] sets mode: +o Donegeal[GoW] [16:02] :) [16:02] Shiber[GS]: but you are still REXing? [16:02] Shiber[GS]: this is bad news :( [16:03] Shiber[GS]: i was hoping to hear that GoW is getting stronger [16:03] Zeit: that's good- but why won't you try a border treaty- this could turn their attention towards RP, while you peacefuly develop [16:03] I wouldn't call it Rexing perse... [16:03] Panzer32[GoW]: we have Lux land to settle [16:03] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], but if you don't build settlers fast enough, then ND is going to grab more land. That calls for serious REXing [16:03] Panzer32[GoW]: they aren't going too fast either [16:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There will be war on Bob .. we are in a "controled" expansion [16:04] Zeit: right, but won't you be better with a slower paced settling, you have prime lands, like you said [16:04] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], now you're being kinda vague. You said that you haven't divided lands or secured any lands by form of treaty; given that, how can you say that you have Lux land to settle? [16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we swaped maps...we could show you [16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [16:04] they are open...that is why.. [16:04] Shiber[GS]: ;) [16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lux was east of Gow & ND [16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are both expanding east [16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: eastish [16:05] Shiber[GS]: okay, just so i get this straight: open, but not officially claimed by anyone, in-game or out-game, within a treaty [16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No border agreement [16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: no treaty [16:05] ... sorta... [16:05] RP is not allowed up there... [16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We just tell them where we are going...they do likewise [16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: so far, no problems [16:06] Shiber[GS]: you have an agreement with RP, or is this simply an unwritten rule? [16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP have a heap of land [16:06] -> *zeit* Great! We shifted the spotlight to GoW. Now they're the ones answering our questions! [16:06] -> *zeit* keep hammering [16:06] *zeit* ? [16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Half the continent [16:06] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], do you know how far south the continent stretches? [16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maps have been swapped yes [16:07] -> *zeit* earlier, GoW were practically interrogating us. now they're the ones answering questions [16:07] Zeit: so how come you except their claim of so much land? [16:07] *zeit* :) [16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Large continent with a lot of jungle in the middle [16:07] Panzer32[GoW]: we didn't say we like it, but we have to live with it. [16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We cant do anything about it [16:07] Panzer32[GoW]: ND blocks our route to them, and RP have blocked ND. [16:08] sorry... breakfast... its an unwritten rule Shiber.. [16:08] Zeit: If you decide with ND, that you don't except the RP claim of the land, they'll have to negotiate [16:08] Zeit: just push the entire conflict towards RP. [16:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent settled all of north yet. [16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we swapped maps, you woudl see :) [16:09] Shiber[GS]: Apologies, I'll be on and off for the next couple of minutes, so I'm sorry if I can't answer questions directed at me immediately. [16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It is difficult to explain [16:09] Panzer32[GoW]: we would need to build up before we incite a war. [16:09] Zeit: right, but in the future, RP will actually claim those lands, and it will be tougher for both you and ND to expand [16:09] too far away... [16:10] Zeit: i didn't talk about war- just make an agreement with ND, that they push RP towards giving more land, supported by your efforts [16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Jungle in the middle. ND would rather claim land north of it. That leaves RP with the southern half of the contienent [16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They wouldnt want to claim jungle land just to get to RP's "border" [16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: North is easier [16:11] Zeit: thso RP's land is basically moderate amount of habitable land, and lot's of jungle? [16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lots of jungle in the middle "unclaimed" [16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP claims everything south "moderatlr good" [16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND is north of the jungle and expanding North & East [16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are at the top...also expanding east [16:12] Zeit: okay, how fast do they do that? [16:12] Zeit: expanding [16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Who ? RP or ND [16:13] Zeit: ND [16:13] -> *zeit* we REALLY need to have a chat with ND later and compare notes :) [16:13] *zeit* good thinking [16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND & RP basically at the same speed [16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: not Rex [16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: keeping a good military build [16:13] Zeit: but you're the ones against ND- so who's winning? [16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Different civs [16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They have leftover swords from Lux war [16:14] Zeit: on the Rex contest [16:14] Zeit: you have Iron yet? [16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have horsemen [16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - but it is awkward position [16:14] -> *zeit* thanks [16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We killing barbs and have some elites [16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Most of their swords are regulars [16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are militaristic [16:15] Zeit: I suggest you connect it, if ND has enough of it, they won't be upset [16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They are religious [16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - ND has their own supply [16:16] Zeit: so have certain edge you can take advantage of, but the Rex contest is not good for you at this point, IMHO [16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are using galleys to find another source [16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP has plenty [16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: of iron [16:16] Zeit: it will take time- harbors and all [16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: there are islands between us and Lego - but no luck yet [16:17] Zeit: i suggest you take the one you have, despite it's poistion [16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Habours is the problem [16:17] Zeit: it will be difficult for us to help you, with gold e.g. if you can't upgrade warriors [16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have...but if ND wants to, they could cut it off. [16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: To ensure its supply, we would need to build too close to ND. [16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: The last civ that did that...is no longer with us [16:18] Zeit: all you need are a few turns- for a mass upgrade [16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep - so if there is war, it may happen before pikes and/or riders [16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: but maybe not [16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we dont know [16:19] Zeit: you could upgrade archers... [16:19] Panzer32[GoW]: if we had archers... [16:19] Zeit: are ND building militarily- you have reasons to suspect they want a war soon? [16:20] Zeit: you're right- it's better to just upgrade warriors, but you also need Iron. [16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND vs RP ? ND vs Gow ? it could go anywhere [16:20] Zeit: and until we have harbors, we can't help you with that [16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do you have 2 sources of iron ? [16:20] Zeit: ND vs Gow [16:21] Zeit: even if we have one- we could lend it for a few turns [16:21] Shiber[GS]: i agree with Zeit [16:21] Shiber[GS]: and so does the rest of our team [16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND vs Gow War ? [16:22] Shiber[GS]: we have no problems lending you some of our iron for several turns of mass upgrades [16:22] Panzer32[GoW]: I will have to leave in about 10 minutes [16:22] ok... we have given you lots of info on our situation... now lets get some feedback... [16:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That is good to know [16:22] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], with pleasure [16:22] Zeit: I have some idea, for an iron trade... wait a bit [16:23] I'll tell you what I know from our conversation... [16:24] You have floodplains, desert and mountians... [16:24] and if the map generator is consistant.. plains as well [16:24] Shiber[GS]: yes [16:25] Shiber[GS]: additionally, we have grasslands, some hills, some mountains and some river tiles [16:25] I don't know about grasslands, but I figure that you have plenty of workers mining those mountians... [16:25] Shiber[GS]: we have a lot of workers, yes [16:26] ok... tell us about the border area... forces seen and such... [16:27] Zeit: what do you say about this proposal, WRT your iron problem? [16:27] Zeit: What if we both build harbors, as fast as viable, GoW will give some workers to GS, to speed the construction (by integration), and will also promise to buy Iron for several turns. [16:28] We don't like giving up our workers... [16:28] -> *zeit* they can't give us workers if we don't have a city on their continent or vice versa [16:28] it is one of the advantages we have over ND... [16:28] Zeit: yes, but won't you have to waste on a colony? [16:28] Shiber[GS]: any other payment will do, as long as our team agrees on it [16:28] Shiber[GS]: we have no intention of blackmailing you, though [16:28] *zeit* right, i forgot that... [16:29] Shiber[GS]: there's not much we can ask for only a few turns long supply of iron [16:29] *zeit* but what about gifting a city? [16:29] -> *zeit* eek, too radical for them i think [16:29] um... you guys are avoiding the border question I ask just a bit agao... [16:30] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], i wanted to sort out the iron question [16:30] Shiber[GS]: there's no need to get nasty [16:30] Zeit: well, let me just say we see nothing suspicious of on the border [16:30] Zeit: to be supsicious of [16:30] hehehe... Shiber...think back to my posts to ET... you will know when I get nasty... [16:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Iron yes - We would be interested in a backup supply of iron [16:30] -> *zeit* not exactly, they've connected an iron with a colony... but we can only tell GoW that after we've agreed to share intel [16:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will present any deal to our team - no probs [16:31] *zeit* not wrt to forces movement, i meant... [16:31] *zeit* :) [16:31] *zeit* there's no reason to tell them what they don't ask for [16:31] -> *zeit* oh, good [16:31] -> *zeit* you're right [16:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I am sure GF would have some ideas for payment methds [16:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: methods [16:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we are interested in somehow using you to keep Vox off our back, if war breaks out [16:32] Shiber[GS]: anyway, i take it that the question of iron has been resolved. currently such a deal cannot be carried out, since we don't have a harbor yet [16:32] Zeit: we'll check out things as well- first of all when can we finnish a harbor... [16:32] Shiber[GS]: we'll speed up construction though, if you get into war [16:32] Zeit: cross posted [16:32] Shiber[GS]: lol [16:33] Panzer32[GoW]: I have to go now; keep up the good work guys [16:33] Shiber[GS]: cya Panzer32[GoW] [16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: this is good to know [16:33] Zeit: see ya, bye [16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: cya panzer [16:33] * Panzer32[GoW] has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving ) [16:33] crap... I forgot a meeting I have to go to... [16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP Donegeal [16:33] I have 30 mins before it starts! [16:33] Zeit: well, isn't this an important meeting? :) [16:33] * Donegeal[GoW] is now known as Donegeal [16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: any 3 star generals ? [16:33] no... [16:33] Shiber[GS]: this doesn't come to say that we are delaying the harbor, it's just low priority on our list. surely you agree that harbors aren't very important in the earlier stages of the game [16:34] later [16:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: cya [16:34] Shiber[GS]: cya Donegeal [16:34] * Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: ) [16:34] Shiber[GS]: damn, he left before i could say goodbye... :( [16:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will read the log [16:34] Shiber[GS]: lol, i hope so :) [16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are interested in harbors because of our iron [16:35] Zeit: Of course, do you have one? [16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Actually - I dont know - I dont think so yet [16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent even found iron yet on a island so....little reason for one [16:36] Shiber[GS]: now that we have reached some sort of an agreement on the future question of iron trade, you may wanna speed up construction of that harbor of yours [16:36] Shiber[GS]: our team might want to do the same too [16:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We shall so [16:36] Shiber[GS]: anyway, that's something we need to bring back to the private forum [16:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Us as well [16:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: IS there anything else that needs to be brought up ? [16:37] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], we'd be happy to answer any questions you might have left [16:38] Zeit: if possible.. :) [16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 1:30am here - Wife is going to wake up very pissed soon [16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No more Q's from me [16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ask away if you have any [16:39] Zeit: looks like we have none... [16:39] Shiber[GS]: i wouldn't want to upset your wife [16:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) thanks you [16:39] Zeit: so i think you can go back to bed. :) [16:39] Shiber[GS]: one thing though [16:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - thanks for the chat [16:39] Zeit: NP- I hope this helped easing the tension [16:40] Shiber[GS]: we understand that GoW has been frustrated with tech trade [16:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes it did - for me anyway [16:40] Shiber[GS]: that is to say, you didn't like some of our refusals [16:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It was annoying yes - It will still be annoying [16:40] Shiber[GS]: i hope that now you understand that this was due to agreements that were signed between GS and Vox before GS had any contact with the outside world, and that they covered most of the ancient age [16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You may find us offering more restrictions of tech trades [16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: so we get the best deal from you & vox [16:41] Shiber[GS]: of course, GS would be very interested in exchanging notes on research in the next age [16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 4 sure [16:41] Shiber[GS]: so keep your eyes and ears open :) ;) [16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Personal Note - You guys and your family stay safe ok [16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Keep your heads down [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: no problems [16:42] Zeit: if we don'y inject atropine, it will be just fine [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :) [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: At leastyou have your sense of humor [16:42] *zeit* i agree [16:42] Zeit: left [16:42] Zeit: :) [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ok - gotta go [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thanks again [16:42] Shiber[GS]: cya Hot_Enamel[GoW] [16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: bye [16:43] Zeit: thank you [16:43] * Hot_Enamel[GoW] has left #talks

	23-03-2003 23:25									#60
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A message to HotE, about resolution of the Voxian issue.

quote: Honorable Hot_Enamel of the Glory of War. I hope things have settled since the last time we talked. I have picked up clues that suggest the issue of the Voxian landing was resolved. May i ask how it was resolved? I was hoping the combined diplomatic efforts of the Bobian nations have been fruitful, and that a sensible solution was found. Kind Regards Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.