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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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Good news from UnO:
quote:
Honorable zeit,
It is my pleasure to inform you that both RL circumstances and some organizational changes within GoW have landed me back 'home' as the ambassador to Gathering Storm. I look forward to hearing from you in the future and hope that we can continue the many pleasant talks that I have come to expect from Gathering Storm.
There has been much discussion within the forums of GoW about the nature of the GS/Voxian war. I need not remind you that there is no love lost between GoW and Vox since the time of their attempted invasion of Bob. It is our understanding that had ND and RP not backed us in an effort to remove them from our island it would be GoW, and not GS that would be dealing with the Immortal army at their gates.
Would it be possible that our teams meet up in a chat to discuss the nature of the war, and, specifically what, if anything, GoW may due to lend their support either openly, or in private, that we may see through the removal of a team that has proven itself to be no more than a loose cannon?
Sincerely,
UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador of the GoW Team
On a personal note, didn't know you were studying Psychology. I have seen this as much a study in Jungian psychology as it is a game. Half my reason for joining was to watch how the different groups interact, and it certainly has not disapointed.
BTW, can I get a list of the people in government positions for GS? Now that I am your Ambassador, I think my story could use a trip to the mysterious lands of GS...
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My reply:
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx.
I'm very glad we can work together again, my ambassadorship in the GoW was most satisfying thanks to Hot_Enamel and yourself.
I'll have to apologize, though- my participation in the next few days won't be as I would have liked to be- you know, exams period...
I'll try to have the list ready for you in the next 24 hours.
As for the psychology of the game- I never looked at it from a Jungian POV. He does talk about symbols and "magic circle" (mandala) as innate part of our culture and personality, and the ultimate goal of integrating the different archetypes in order to reach psychological balance. Or is it the combination of Introvert or Extrovert along with one of the four psychological functions (thinking, feeling, sensing, intuiting) that he describes that you find applicable to players in the game?
I have heard the Jugian Theory and therapy method is rapidly growing in popularity in the recent years. I have no idea about this beyond the very basics of his earliest working- and I'd love to hear more about it from you, if you're willing.
Cordially
Zeit
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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my reply:
quote:
Dear UnO!
Please accept my apology for the delay, It's been a hectic day, and I've barely made it to finish my academic chores in time...
Thank you for the elaborate explanations of the Jungian'ism (is that an acceptable term?) as you it in the game. I always thought Jung mentioned the symbols and the collective uncs. as universal, but now that you mentioned it, it does make sense that in different cultures (and teams), different symbols and archetypes are menifested in different ways.
And now, for the official list of key-members. This are not "officials" in every sense of the word, as our team is run mostly by discussion and an attempt to reach consensus, but still:
Notyoueither- the founding father of the team, doesn't have any official duty, but he is sometimes looked on as the 'godgather'
Sir Ralph- once a dedicated in-game player, his activity has gown down over the last couple of months, and now is back up. A true Hawk.
Arrian and Thesues- the two co-generals of the GS army. They are always "to the point" and tend to spare the chit-chat.
nbarclay (Nahan)- Our never-sleeping player, and our talented chief economist. He was also our de-facto ambassador in Vox.
Aeson- a dedicated economist and analyst of the team, working alongside Nathan on the short and long-term planning of infrastructure and city planning.
DeepO- a gifted diplomat, who was once a white dove. He is now a bit closer to the dark side, after the traumatic war of Voxian agression.
ManaicStarSeed (MSS)- our newly appointed FAM, who was recently beack from a long exile.
That would be it.
I wish you success with your writing.
Zeit,
Gathering Storm ambassador in the Glory of War
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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About Vox's possible departure:
quote:
Honorable UnOrthOdOx.
Greetings from the Gathering Storm.
As you might have already known, Vox and the GS have recently begun talks in an attempt to end the conflict between us.
I'll just say that our team has decided that in order to end the war with Vox, they must leave the continent. This issue was presented to Vox, but was not discussed, as we have yet to recieve a response from them regarding this idea.
The public's opinion in this matter is also important for us. To be more precise and to the point: If Vox is to leave the continent, they must find have a chunk of land to settle on, this chunk of land would preferably be unclaimed territory, or an agreed upon location.
We wanted to ask you, what is your opinion in this matter, and if you have any suggestions for a suitable location
We would also want to know if you'd even support such a development, should it come into possible realization.
Cordially
Zeit, Gathering Storm's ambassador in the Glory of War.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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From UnO, regarding a chat:
quote:
Greetings zeit,
I have copied this information to our forums, and hope to have an answer to your inquiry soon.
Also, I wanted to aproach the subject of a possible chat again, I think it may have been lost with our conversation of psychology a bit. Is there a time that would work for GS members to be able to attend a Chat with GoW? We wish to discuss several things and feel a chat is the best forum in which to discuss them, but we also understand if this is impossible with the various schedules. If such is the case, I will attempt to discuss the matters at hand over the course of several PM's/E-mails.
Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx
Vice Calf and Ambassador to Gathering Storm
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My reply:
quote:
Honorable UnOrthOdOx.
I'm sorry for not attending the issue of a chat. The next week will be quite busy for me, but I think I can manage it. after the somewhat 'silent' period we've gone trhouh, with regard to foreign relations, I don't think I'll miss this opportunity.
I'll post about this in our board. In the meantime, can you send me the times suitable for your team?
Thank you, and kind regards
Zeit, Ambassador for the Gathering Storm.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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One more
quote:
Chat time and Agenda
Honorable zeit,
I hope things are proceeding well on your end.
It seems the best time for GoW to hold a chat would be:
22:00 New York time, converting that (assuming the program in my palm is correct) That is 02:00 GMT, 19:00 California time.
Would this be possible for GS?
Also, I wanted to impart to you the Agenda for the chat, so that we may all be on the same page and progess with something resembling efficiency. (ok, Im just an organizational freak, I find it much easier when everyone is prepared)
The Items that GoW wishes to discuss are as follows:
The Status of War/Peace between GoW and GS
The Status of Scientific Research
The Status of Vox
The Status of Bob
Is there anything that Gathering Storm wishes to add to this list so that I may be fully prepared to discuss it?
Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx
Vice Calf and Ambassador to Gathering Storm.
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My response
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx,
I have logged your message on our board. I'll let you know about my team's response as soon as possible.
I do have to say, that I fear I won't be able to participate in the chat, but that's okay- I'm not very comfortable with chats and I won't be able to contribute much due to my 'non-english' thinking mode... 
Kind Regards
Zeit, ambassador to the Glory of War.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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Session Start: Fri Jun 13 20:19:15 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
{20:19] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
{20:19] {nye> whoo
{20:19] {alva_busy> he
{20:20] {alva_busy> Someone risks a few speeding tickets 
{20:20] {nye> heh. got out early and trafic was light
{20:20] * alva_busy sets mode: +o {GoW]jdd2007
{20:20] * alva_busy sets mode: +o nye
{20:21] {alva_busy> chat hasn't started yet
{20:21] {nye> have you begun? don't let me interupt
{20:21] {nye> i hate it when i do that
{20:21] {alva_busy> yep, I'm a clairvoyant
{20:21] * {GoW]Hot_Enamel is now known as {GoW]Hot_Enamel_AFK
{20:22] {{GoW]UnO> Hi NYE
{20:22] {nye> hi, uno
{20:23] {nye> how are you keeping?
{20:23] {{GoW]UnO> I hope so...don't know IRC all that well. Panzer will back up, I hope.
{20:24] {{GoW]Panzer32> huh? Sorry, back up on what?
{20:24] {{GoW]UnO> oh, sorry misread that. Things are fine, still have one son up, though, so I may have sporadic absense.
{20:24] {{GoW]UnO> logging...
{20:24] {nye> ahh. ok. i need to depart for a moment
{20:26] * {GoW]Panzer32 sets mode: +nts
{20:39] {nye> back
{20:41] {{GoW]UnO> are we all set then?
{20:42] {nye> i think so
{20:43] {{GoW]UnO> Panzer? HE?
{20:43] {nye> is mss awake?
{20:43] {{GoW]UnO> don't think so...
{20:43] {{GoW]UnO> want to wait?
{20:43] {nye> he needs some rest
{20:43] {{GoW]Panzer32> sure
{20:44] {{GoW]UnO> he's had a busy day? 
{20:44] {nye> not sure how long we would be waiting. he was going on 1 hour sleep last night
{20:44] {alva_busy> he might wake until late afternoon
{20:44] {nye> if alva feels ok, we should proceed. is Nathan paying attention?
{20:44] {alva_busy> *not
{20:45] {alva_busy> sure, although I will be quite most of it
{20:45] {alva_busy> Nathan is busy, I think
{20:45] {alva_busy> *quiet
{20:46] {alva_busy> getting late here
{20:46] {nye> ok.
{20:46] {{GoW]UnO> All set and everyone logging?
{20:46] {nye> sure
{20:47] {{GoW]UnO> Ok. you guys get the agenda?
{20:47] {nye> let me check
{20:48] {{GoW]UnO> I sent it to zeit a few days back
{20:48] {nye> ziet mentioned an agenda, but i don't see it. go ahead, UnO
{20:48] {alva_busy> ,ope, can't find it either
{20:49] {{GoW]UnO> Ok. The first thing that we wanted to cover was to clear up any misconceptions that may exist reguarding GoW in the current situation
{20:49] {{GoW]UnO> pardon, I need a sec...kids...
{20:49] * {GoW]GhengisFarb has joined #GoW_CoFA
{20:49] {nye> hi, gf
{20:50] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I keep mispelling dtrategy
{20:50] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> figure that
{20:50] {nye> heh
{20:50] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> speak of the devil
{20:51] {nye> right. found the agenda
{20:51] {nye> alva, see the contact log
{20:52] {nye> ok. the current sit. i take it that means beta's thread?
{20:54] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> This is progressing nicely
{20:54] {nye> heh
{20:54] {{GoW]Panzer32> probably
{20:54] * {GoW]Panzer32 sets mode: +o {GoW]GhengisFarb
{20:54] {{GoW]UnO> ok back...sorry
{20:55] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Are we still at war with GS?
{20:55] {{GoW]UnO> Let's just start from the beginning.
{20:55] {nye> yes
{20:55] {{GoW]UnO> That situation.
{20:55] {nye> ok, uno. currenbt sit. go
{20:56] {{GoW]UnO> As GS knows, GoW played a part in the initial deception reguarding Vox landing in Bob.
{20:56] {nye> yes
{20:56] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Reserve a point to clarify that bit
{20:56] {{GoW]UnO> When Vox landed on Bob, we were faced with an uncertain future
{20:57] {{GoW]UnO> Technically, ND and RP were now allowed to bring troops north along our borders.
{20:57] {{GoW]UnO> We did not fear an amphibious invasion from Vox, but we were uncertain if all three teams could be trusted not to take advantage of the numbers.
{20:58] {nye> reasonable
{20:59] {nye> we understand that was a tense moment for gow.
{20:59] * alva_busy nods
{20:59] {{GoW]UnO> We were then told of the Vox plan, and agreed to a portion of their proposal of deception as part of the payment for their city.
{20:59] {{GoW]UnO> They also wished for screenshots and other 'evidence' to be produced.
{20:59] {{GoW]UnO> which we refused.
{21:00] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Reserv point #2 to clarify later
{21:00] {nye> alright
{21:00] {{GoW]UnO> We were also contacted at this time by an employer we cannot name to assist Vox.
{21:01] {{GoW]UnO> We have stated from the beginning we were mercenaries. Hence, the landing of the 2 horse
{21:01] {{GoW]UnO> We cannot discuss the payments or source of this employment.
{21:02] {{GoW]UnO> We currently have a problem, though.
{21:02] {{GoW]UnO> We are technically under contract for 4 more units.
{21:02] {nye> ahhh, yes, that is not so good.
{21:03] {{GoW]UnO> We understand what you need to do, but we also need to fulfill our contract.
{21:03] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Our contract states that we will land 6 units in support of Vox
{21:03] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Doesn't say we have to pillage roads or take cities, just land
{21:03] {{GoW]UnO> really?
{21:03] {nye> since you cannot name your employers, it would be obvious they are not vox.
{21:04] {alva_busy> What kind of units?
{21:04] {{GoW]UnO> As I said, we cannot say.
{21:04] {nye> just making an observation.
{21:04] {{GoW]UnO> There was no agreement for what types of units
{21:04] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I'm pretty sure, that's why I wanted to land the Horses and have GS scream on the public forum that we had invaded. I would have technically have fulfilled our contract
{21:05] {{GoW]UnO> If this war continues, and we are foced to land units, they will be labeled 'mercenaries'
{21:05] {{GoW]UnO> All we ask at this point is that you keep in mind we are only fulfilling our obligations.
{21:05] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> They should not be construed as representing the approval or official stance of GoW.........
{21:06] {nye> that is... complicated.
{21:06] {{GoW]UnO> We have no vested interest in land on your island, only in our contract.
{21:06] {nye> but we can grant that it is not the full might of gow being brought to bear.
{21:06] * Mss_asleep is now known as MSS
{21:06] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> If they are there when Vox is dead, they will have no reason to stay on Estonia, now will they?
{21:07] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I would like to negotiate for Incense and Fur
{21:07] {nye> what sorts of units do you plan on sending, and where would you send them?
{21:07] {{GoW]UnO> We have also taken considerable heat reguarding this from our employers, and others in that we have not refused to commit fully.
{21:07] {alva_busy> just a remark: Gow being mercenairies isn't a valid enough reason for this being 'ok', is it
{21:07] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Hey, we got paid cash, we are greedy little warmongers.
{21:07] {{GoW]Panzer32> we do not break our contracts.
{21:08] {Trip-> quick nap MSS :P
{21:08] {{GoW]Panzer32> you could have hired us if you wanted
{21:08] {{GoW]UnO> Yes, you are the recieving end of the contract, but this proves we honor all contracts as well...
{21:08] {nye> yes. i suppose we could have, but it sounds as if you were hired long before we knew there would be a need.
{21:09] {alva_busy> doesn't telling us about the contract, contradict that somewhat?
{21:09] {{GoW]UnO> There was not a non disclosure tag for the contract, only for the employer
{21:09] {MSS> yeah ..baclkk no catching up on how bob turns...
{21:09] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Clarify point #2, the screenshots I sent you were doctored to so that you would not realize we had received a map of your island previously
{21:09] {nye> we knew they were doctored, gf.
{21:10] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I figured, I just wanted to let you know why
{21:10] {nye> i can't remember where we caught it, but we did.
{21:10] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> At the time, we were under agreement to not disclose that we had received the map
{21:11] {{GoW]UnO> Well, units WOULD have landed last turn, but we were told not to send them by our emplyer. Now that hostilities continue, we are not sure what their plans are presently.
{21:11] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> That was a #$#$ pain in the but trying to recreate the fog of war on those things
{21:11] {{GoW]UnO> sorry, catching up on questions
{21:12] {nye> what sorts of units, and where?
{21:12] {{GoW]UnO> I beleive they are defensive units, GF?
{21:13] {nye> i can;t think of why we would fuss if 4 warriors camped in Voxes northern hills.
{21:13] {{GoW]Panzer32> can we disclose it?
{21:13] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Against my wishes, yes
{21:13] {{GoW]Panzer32> I know what they are
{21:13] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> They should all be movement 1 units
{21:14] {{GoW]Panzer32> Ghengis - they're not all move 1.
{21:14] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> i said should, there may be one movement 2 unit
{21:15] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Has anyone discussed a map trade?
{21:16] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We have the bulk of Lego's coast explored now
{21:16] {nye> map trades have recently been discussed on our forum.
{21:16] {{GoW]UnO> For the sake of argument and uncertainty at the moment, we cannot disclose the exact units or location.
{21:16] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We don't want them sunk.
{21:17] {MSS> Really, too bad we are at war We are to the point we are looking to trade
{21:17] {nye> ok. keep in mind that any hostile ships will be sunk on site
{21:17] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I am keeping that in mind
{21:17] {{GoW]UnO> Define 'hostile'
{21:17] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Not GS
{21:17] {nye> at war with gs and likely to be carrying troops
{21:17] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Not Gs
{21:17] {MSS> yes NYE
{21:18] {MSS> RP has a ship near our waters and will be allowed to pass
{21:18] {{GoW]UnO> If you were to blockade the pass preventing our galleys to arrive at all???
{21:18] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> What if we paint smilies on our ships, they would look friendly
{21:18] {alva_busy> lol
{21:18] {nye> that is many tiles, and our navy may not want to park that far north.
{21:19] {{GoW]UnO> Are there any further questions reguarding this situation?
{21:19] {alva_busy> What if you drop them where we want them?
{21:19] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Where do you want them
{21:19] {MSS> hmmm too soon to tell this is so new
{21:20] {nye> we would need to discuss that
{21:20] {alva_busy> brb, looking at the map.
{21:20] {MSS> tnks alva
{21:20] {{GoW]Panzer32> we have already talked to the other team about where we are going to drop them...
{21:20] {alva_busy> ahh
{21:20] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> how about the hill immediately s of Eliopolis, this would prevenT Vox troops from gaining the highground
{21:20] {nye> ha
{21:20] {MSS> What are your costs?
{21:20] {nye> that is crawling with troops. doubt there would be room for more boots
{21:21] {MSS> true nye
{21:21] {nye> vox is on that position.
{21:21] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We haven't discovered boots yet
{21:21] {nye> so you don;t know what it is aboot?
{21:21] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Exactly, they would have to move off for our troops
{21:22] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I think its something that goes on your foot
{21:22] {nye> you move, they move, we move. correct?
{21:22] {nye> or are you between them and us?
{21:22] {nbarclay> GoW is before Vox.
{21:22] {MSS> Aftr us I think
{21:22] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> no you are after them and before us
{21:22] {alva_busy> nah, can't really find any decent location 
{21:23] {nye> hi, nathan.
{21:23] {nye> we could discuss it
{21:23] {alva_busy> ah, Nathan might now
{21:23] {nbarclay> I've been popping in and out in the middle of doing something else. I think I'm up to date.
{21:23] {{GoW]UnO> Yes, let's discuss this later, shall we in the interest of movin on? There is alot more to cover.
{21:24] {MSS> Sure... Thats a lot to digest
{21:24] {nye> ok
{21:24] {{GoW]UnO> Next is our Research. We have taken some heat for not refusing to consider trading Chivalry to you guys.
{21:25] {{GoW]UnO> What is the ETA on that, GF, Panzer?
{21:25] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Around 6 tuns I think
{21:25] {{GoW]Panzer32> 5 turns as of last
{21:25] {nye> heat? from whom?
{21:25] {MSS> Thire clients
{21:25] {{GoW]UnO> We cannot disclose that.
{21:25] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> teams that cannot be disclosed at this time
{21:26] {nbarclay> My read is that GoW's clients take the view that if GoW is at war with us, they shouldn't be trading Chivalry to us.
{21:26] {{GoW]UnO> We have agreed to this deal with you, and it will be carried out as agreed. We may have to declare peace, but maintain a 'technical' state of war in order to accomidate this.
{21:26] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I'm getting tired of being other people's puppet
{21:26] {MSS> Well war must cease for the trade...
{21:26] {alva_busy> Something about 'Iron' springs to mind
{21:27] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> 
{21:27] {MSS> That works for me...
{21:27] {{GoW]UnO> We were also wondering if you would be willing to discuss your research path and possible future trades?
{21:27] {alva_busy> I meant a certain thread a couple of days ago
{21:28] {{GoW]UnO> Yes, I think we saw the irony more than any other team in that thread...
{21:28] {nbarclay> Our research path is a bit up in the air right now, thanks to someone's undercutting all our other plans to sell the last tech we researched.
{21:28] {{GoW]Panzer32> I'm not getting it?
{21:28] {alva_busy> lol
{21:28] {{GoW]UnO> The GS public announcement not to trade Iron to Vox.
{21:28] {{GoW]UnO> that the whole world seemed to go into an uproar over...
{21:29] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We waited, but several other civs flat out didn't want to trade with you
{21:29] * MSS nod
{21:29] {{GoW]UnO> wishing to keep you from gold...
{21:29] {nbarclay> According to RP, they had a good offer from you shortly after we traded it to you.
{21:29] {MSS> for feud
{21:30] {{GoW]UnO> we offered a deal that would take place after the agreed waiting period.
{21:30] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We took a lot of heat for buying Feudalism, other civs did NOT want you getting any gold
{21:30] {MSS> true you kept ypur work. hank you
{21:30] {MSS> your word..
{21:30] {{GoW]UnO> Again proving our true neutrality in the whole affair, much to certain peoples dismay...
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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{21:30] {{GoW]UnO> Again proving our true neutrality in the whole affair, much to certain peoples dismay...
{21:31] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> The minute you mentioned no disclosure we did not discuss it with anyone
{21:31] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Rp made us an offer before you mentioned Non Disclosre and before we had the tech
{21:31] {MSS> You have acted honorably, I will admit. No easy task for your position....
{21:32] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> From then on it was Togas trying to play us against each other to get it cheap, which we refused to discuss until the NDA ran out
{21:33] {MSS> thank you
{21:33] {{GoW]UnO> Ok. Your up in the air at the moment, Chivalry will take place, that pretty much covers point 2 on the agenda unless there are further questions.
{21:33] {MSS> do you have a price?
{21:33] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> The problem for us was that we had deals with both sides before the war began and we didn't see it coming. This left us with very little room to wiggle in
{21:33] {nye> already agreed, mss
{21:33] {nbarclay> We had agreed on 200 gold, as I recall.
{21:34] {{GoW]Panzer32> yes.
{21:34] * MSS nods
{21:34] {{GoW]UnO> on to #3?
{21:34] {nbarclay> Definitely awkward.
{21:34] {nbarclay> (For you.)
{21:35] {{GoW]UnO> We find that allot...
{21:35] {nbarclay> On to #3 sounds fine to me.
{21:35] {nye> the status of Vox?
{21:35] {{GoW]UnO> Future of Vox...
{21:35] {{GoW]UnO> What are your intentions?
{21:35] {{GoW]UnO> Besides off your island?
{21:35] {MSS> The are burning brigdes daily
{21:36] {nbarclay> Until Beta's little stunt, we would have been happy to see them establish the best civ they possibly can elsewhere.
{21:36] {{GoW]UnO> You asked us for suggestions on locations, we wonder what your team feels is appropriate?
{21:36] {nbarclay> Now there is a certain amount of disagreement.
{21:36] {MSS> We ARE NOT pleased with their lates stunt in the public froum
{21:36] {{GoW]UnO> I can understand that much.
{21:36] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Flat out - our interests in Vox, they are supposed to give us a tech which we want. That is our primary investment in them.
{21:37] {{GoW]UnO> Yep.
{21:37] {MSS> Engineering...
{21:37] {{GoW]UnO> yep.
{21:37] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We get that tech, we aren't interested in them anymore
{21:37] {MSS> Can we provide that? nathan?
{21:37] {{GoW]UnO> We already paid a down payment...
{21:37] {MSS> what was that?
{21:38] {nye> heh
{21:38] {{GoW]UnO> some gold
{21:38] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> A long time ago
{21:38] {nbarclay> If Vox cooperates, we could arrange to leave The Voice in their hands until they get it, although we'd probably want the tech ourselves as a price for doing so.
{21:38] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> before they attacked
{21:38] {nye> well, down payments to extinct civs are a problem...
{21:38] {{GoW]UnO> yes, they are.
{21:39] {nbarclay> I should say, could probably arrange. I can't commit the team all by myself.
{21:39] {alva_busy> We let vox live long enough, you share the tech, something like that?
{21:39] {{GoW]UnO> I think GoW would be willing to 'gift' it to you for allowing them to live... Panzer? GF?
{21:40] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> If Vox is destroyed I would like to offer Betahound a position on the GoW team. That kind of spin doctoring needs to be fostered.
{21:40] {{GoW]GhengisFarb>
{21:40] {MSS> How gracious of you towards Vox
{21:40] {{GoW]UnO> This could also be construed as you giving them time to leave on the public forum...
{21:40] {{GoW]Panzer32> "I think GoW would be willing to 'gift' it to you for allowing them to live... Panzer? GF?" Do you mean Vox gifting it to GS?
{21:40] {alva_busy>
{21:40] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Betahound is a master at that
{21:40] {MSS> I was wondering if GS needed his services...
{21:41] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> He may find himself in a bidding war
{21:41] {alva_busy> lol
{21:41] {MSS> They seem to be 10 + turns from it, can we beat that?
{21:41] {MSS> nathan?
{21:41] {{GoW]UnO> I believe they stated 15.
{21:42] {MSS> That was 2 turns ago...
{21:42] {{GoW]UnO> I must step away for a moment again. Panzer, care to take over for a sec?
{21:42] {{GoW]UnO> GF?
{21:42] {{GoW]Panzer32> sure
{21:42] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Sure
{21:42] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Go Panzer
{21:43] {{GoW]Panzer32> basically, if we were to get Eng from you instead of Vox, how much would you want for it?
{21:43] {nbarclay> I don't think I'd want to try to beat that research time if we can get the tech for free later. We need gold for other things, and we'll be hurting financially between the time our GA ends and the time we catch up on city improvements.
{21:43] {nbarclay> Crosspost.
{21:44] {{GoW]Panzer32> ok, so you would rather keep Vox around for Eng.
{21:44] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> If there is the possiblity of getting Vox to finish it that would be the best route in my opinion, both GS and GoW need cash
{21:44] {nbarclay> If we could get the right deals with other teams, it might be worth researching it ourselves, but we'd need to be absolutely sure the rest of the world would pay its fair share in some form or another.
{21:45] {{GoW]Panzer32> For Vox to give you Eng, it would most likely to be in a peace deal.
{21:45] {MSS> This worries me...
{21:45] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Doubtful, (selling Engineering) Vox has deals with almost all the other civs (a reason why they don't support GS wiping Vox out)
{21:46] {MSS> 15 turns is a long time. If we decide to eliminate Vox, we want to do it sooner than that
{21:46] {alva_busy> In that case, it might be worth it to get rid of vox sooner
{21:47] {{GoW]Panzer32> my suggestion: see if you can make peace with them getting Eng ASAP.
{21:47] {MSS> I think tht we should honnor Voxes Eng Deals for buy off of thier elimination.
{21:47] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I'm fairly confident Vox presold Engineering to Lego and Roleplay, that would explain their support of a peace plan
{21:47] {MSS> This is all theroy now...
{21:48] {{GoW]UnO> ok back
{21:48] {{GoW]UnO> gotta love children.
{21:48] {{GoW]UnO> "but YOURE still awake"
{21:48] * MSS nods
{21:48] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We decided to gift all our cities to GS and join their team
{21:48] {alva_busy> other peaple kids..., sure, great 
{21:49] {{GoW]UnO> Ok.
{21:49] {MSS> hehe... that would really rock the world
{21:49] {{GoW]UnO> That would be hard to defend on Bob...
{21:49] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I'm a horrible negotiator
{21:49] {{GoW]UnO> only 1 defender/city...
{21:49] {MSS> we dont believe that GF
{21:49] {nye> we'd get emily to talk to them
{21:49] {{GoW]UnO> Ill run for FA in GS
{21:50] {{GoW]UnO> anyway back on topic.
{21:50] {MSS> Would you accept the elimination of vox if we gave you engineerin?
{21:50] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Can I run a city?
{21:50] {MSS> and honored their deal
{21:50] {MSS> this is all hypothetical
{21:50] {{GoW]UnO> I think we would need to bring that back to the full team
{21:50] {alva_busy> How do we get to give eng??
{21:50] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I may not be Emperor in a few days but yes, I think that would fly
{21:50] {MSS> sure, as we would too
{21:50] {{GoW]Panzer32> I think this is all hypothetical, alva
{21:51] {Trip-> LoL how evil
{21:51] {Trip->
{21:51] {nye> very hypothetical. vox dies. other deals are not part of that
{21:51] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Count Tripula
{21:51] {{GoW]Panzer32> we would have to discuss with the team
{21:51] {alva_busy> sure, but we can't give anything if we don't have it, do we?
{21:51] {MSS> dedicate research, eliminate vox and get oit to them. So wht if it is 16 -18 turns...
{21:52] {MSS> we would have to plan and make deals...
{21:52] {nbarclay> Does anyone here know how many turns are left in our GA? I've lost track. (Not a great admission for a chief economist. )
{21:52] {{GoW]UnO> We'll bring that offer back to the team and Ill answer you back through zeit.
{21:52] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> You would have a whole island to yourselves, leaving you in a postioin to concentrate on infrastructure and research
{21:52] {alva_busy> Or let vox live a litle longer and get Eng for free..
{21:52] {MSS> thanks... we will do likewise...
{21:52] {{GoW]UnO> meanwhile, you guys get the # turns worked out.
{21:52] {MSS> nathan... 2 or three. We started in turn 94 I believe
{21:53] {{GoW]UnO> Ok good.
{21:53] {nye> what a massive opp for miscomunication
{21:53] {{GoW]UnO> Any other questions about Vox, anything I forgot GOW members?
{21:54] {{GoW]Panzer32> I don't think so
{21:54] {nye> yes. one
{21:54] {{GoW]UnO> Yes?
{21:54] * MSS is now known as mss_brb
{21:54] {{GoW]Panzer32> I'm ready for D
{21:54] {nye> i feel i should make it clear that many on gs will not accept conditions on the death of vox.
{21:55] {nye> i do not want to undercut mss, but i do not want gow to have a flase impression.
{21:55] {nye> *false
{21:55] {{GoW]UnO> This is all hypothetical, I know.
{21:55] {nye> very good
{21:55] {{GoW]UnO> quoting boeing guidlines: meetings are for relaying information, not working issues.
{21:55] {{GoW]UnO>
{21:56] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> But it helps to understand other teams positions
{21:56] {nye> right.
{21:56] {{GoW]UnO> Ok, on to point 4?
{21:56] {nye> after beta's thread, most of the remaining doves are looking more like hawks
{21:56] {{GoW]UnO> are there any doves on GS?
{21:57] {{GoW]UnO> jk
{21:57] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> on the grill
{21:57] {nye> i'm afraid it has backfired very nastily on those who thought it was a good idea
{21:57] {{GoW]UnO> Status of Bob.
{21:57] {nye> go ahead
{21:57] {{GoW]UnO> We are being kept in the dark a bit recently.
{21:57] * mss_brb is now known as mss
{21:58] {{GoW]UnO> This has us concerned.
{21:58] {mss> One sec...
{21:58] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> uh oh
{21:58] {{GoW]UnO> Have you guys heard anything from the other teams?
{21:58] {mss> go ahead.. we can discuss it i our forum...
{21:58] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> their communicating with their allies
{21:59] {{GoW]UnO> ...
{21:59] {{GoW]UnO> We're next on their list...
{21:59] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> quick, who else is on the forums
{21:59] {{GoW]UnO> I can be.
{21:59] {{GoW]UnO> Oh, you mean, never mind.
{22:00] {{GoW]UnO> it's panag!!! their dealing with panag.
{22:00] {{GoW]Panzer32> what are you talking about Ghengis?
{22:00] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> which team is he on?
{22:00] {nye> i'm not sure what is occupying mss. i'm sure he will return.
{22:00] {nbarclay> I checked our history and the attack that began our GA was Turn 93.
{22:00] {mss> I am back
{22:00] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> It was a joke, Panzer
{22:01] {{GoW]UnO> We were wondering what you have heard from the other teams of Bob.
{22:01] {mss> just RO latly.. Alva?
{22:01] {{GoW]UnO> We have been being kept in the dark a bit, making us think something is up.
{22:01] {mss> RP
{22:01] {{GoW]Panzer32> ok
{22:01] {alva_busy> sorry, have to catch up
{22:01] {mss> Me too
{22:01] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> wow, they just came right out with it
{22:02] {mss> ??
{22:02] {nbarclay> Who just came right out with what?
{22:02] {alva_busy> Not much to be honest.
{22:02] {mss> We saidthtw e contacted RP, but it was a bust
{22:02] {mss> it got a little agg over costal exploration...
{22:02] {MRex> I got to go guys, its been, um, interesting listening in to this chat. Have a good night all.
{22:03] * MRex has left #gow_cofa
{22:03] {mss> u suspect RP is upto something?
{22:03] {{GoW]UnO> We don't know.
{22:03] {alva_busy> ND has gone through several changes lately and has therfore been rather quiet.
{22:03] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Ever since we took the stance of not supporting the gold and tech embargo against GS, we have been less and less in the loop with other teams, we are growing concerned they are forming an alliance against us
{22:03] {{GoW]UnO> We have a gut feeling hostilities might break out on Bob again.
{22:03] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> nye Mrex, welcome to GoW
{22:04] {{GoW]UnO> IF we are the target, can we expect any support from GS?
{22:04] {nye> who was MRex?
{22:04] {alva_busy> GOW from the north, who will cover you in the south? 
{22:04] {{GoW]Panzer32> new member
{22:04] {{GoW]UnO> If we are not the target, who do you feel we should back?
{22:04] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> i just don't want GS attacking us as part of the alliance
{22:04] * mss has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
{22:05] {nye> bugger
{22:05] {nye> gow, we have no plans to go to bob.
{22:05] * mss has joined #GoW_CoFA
{22:05] {{GoW]UnO> Not in support, or in conquest...
{22:05] {{GoW]UnO> Any possibility of financial support?
{22:06] {nye> support would require an invitation. we have received none.
{22:06] {mss> damn connection
{22:06] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> If war breaks out on Bob, is it safe to assume GoW and GS can maintain friendly trade relations?
{22:06] {{GoW]UnO> Should we ask, would you be there, or would it be first come/first serve?
{22:07] {{GoW]UnO> And, if we are not a target, and ND/RP go at it, who do you feel we should support?
{22:07] {nye> good questions
{22:07] {alva_busy> We will make a public outcry for peace
{22:07] {mss> nod
{22:07] {nye> lol, alva
{22:08] {{GoW]UnO> We all know how well THOSE work
{22:08] {nbarclay> My strictly personal inclination is that it is in GS's best interest not to have any civ on Bob become too dominant.
{22:08] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> And blast the aggressor for being :aggressive:
{22:09] {{GoW]UnO> What is 'too powerfull?'
{22:09] {alva_busy> This not something one can answer, is it..
{22:09] {alva_busy> *easely
{22:10] {{GoW]UnO> Is this perhaps better dealt with through PMs to get the full team?
{22:10] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Seriously, would it be possible to maintain friendly trade relations between GS and GoW? You have incense, fur, and iron
{22:10] {mss> Yes.
{22:10] {alva_busy> aha, iron
{22:11] {nye> yes, uno. the team would need to discuss these things.
{22:11] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> This will have a major impact on whether we mount a strong defense or cave in and give half our cities away to insure our existence
{22:11] {alva_busy> without making any promises, I'd say we can (stay on friendly basis)
{22:11] {{GoW]UnO> Ok, Ill put that on my list for zeit.
{22:11] {nye> gf, we are inclined to be honest, and reliable
{22:11] {mss> actually (this is personally speakin no way official) GoW has been honorable and supportiv of GS, morso than anyone else...
{22:11] {{GoW]UnO> damn, MZ didn't tell me this job (you guys) would be so much work :0
{22:11] {{GoW]UnO>
{22:12] {nye> hehe
{22:12] {alva_busy> lol
{22:12] {alva_busy> we will break you too
{22:12] {nye> we're either silent, or 54 voices. take your pick. nss is to fix that though.
{22:12] {{GoW]UnO> "oh UnO, go to GS, they know you...
{22:12] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> If have secure sources of Iron, etc, then we can feel secure in defending ourselves against an enemy
{22:12] {alva_busy> up to moment, you will hate us too
{22:13] {{GoW]UnO> I hate no one.
{22:13] {alva_busy> yet
{22:13] {nye> heve you had good contact with nd in the past?
{22:14] {{GoW]UnO> Well, timeline and I had some fun once upon a time...held a grudge for a bit, but was playing RoN with him just the other night.
{22:14] {alva_busy> Anyone have any idea what iron is actually worth??
{22:14] {{GoW]UnO> ND has yet to break anything if that's what you are asking.
{22:14] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> depends on your situation
{22:14] {{GoW]UnO> They are also hard to get a read on their feelings.
{22:15] {nye> i can believe that.
{22:15] {mss> its the non native thing...
{22:15] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> So far, we have had excellent dealings with everyone but Lux
{22:15] {mss> lol
{22:15] {{GoW]UnO> its also they feel everyone is against them for being non-poly. just personal observation...
{22:15] {alva_busy> who???
{22:15] {nye> but things have chilled lately?
{22:15] {alva_busy> they are a small team too
{22:16] {{GoW]UnO> yes, we are not being contacted as regularly...
{22:16] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> the teams are getting smaller
{22:16] {{GoW]UnO> or getting as much info.
{22:16] {nye> you are concerned with a rp/nd alliance?
{22:16] {{GoW]UnO> yes, basically.
{22:16] {alva_busy> Like I said many leader and diplo changes
{22:16] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> MavSon isn't as talkative as Borc or Darekill
{22:17] {{GoW]UnO> This also brings about another item that should be discussed.
{22:17] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Borc and Darekill HATED Togas, MavSon appears to love RP
{22:17] {mss> hmmm
{22:17] {{GoW]UnO> If hostilities come to Bob and we are not the target, we have certain deals in the works with both teams in the future.
{22:17] {{GoW]UnO> Just like what happened with you guys, we will honor all of these.
{22:18] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> ANother political catastrophe in the works.
{22:18] {nye> our code would insist we do likewise
{22:18] * mss bows
{22:18] {{GoW]UnO> However, we fear we could become the target of a propoganda campaign like unto what you are seeing.
{22:18] {mss> from RP?
{22:18] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Rightous Propoganda team
{22:18] {mss> they could pull it off
{22:18] {{GoW]UnO> We just ask that you listen to us before making any judgements, as we have tried to do here.
{22:19] {nye> we are getting good at spotting the true motives of such threads.
{22:19] {mss> Believe us we will
{22:19] {alva_busy> hmm, you did play along for quit some time
{22:19] * mss summons feelgood moment...
{22:19] {mss> Actually I think that we potentially have a lot in common
{22:19] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I agree
{22:20] * mss retrus to normal
{22:20] {{GoW]UnO> Yes.
{22:20] {mss> We do not buy into the PR game, we just scramble to defend ourselvs
{22:20] {nye> It occurs to me that RP and Lego want as much trouble for other civs, as far away from them as possible.
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Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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{22:20] {nye> It occurs to me that RP and Lego want as much trouble for other civs, as far away from them as possible.
{22:21] {mss> and watch with appalled amazment that folks buy into that sort of thinng
{22:21] {alva_busy> smart tactic
{22:21] {{GoW]UnO> I fear Togas could be far superior to even Beta when he wants to...
{22:21] {nye> i know so
{22:21] * mss mods
{22:21] {{GoW]UnO> Well, you and I have reason to from the courts, nye...
{22:21] {mss> hehe
{22:21] {alva_busy> Togas hasn't got the humour, beta makes it look like he just improvised something
{22:22] {mss> courts smorts
{22:22] {{GoW]UnO> the DG courts.
{22:22] {mss> when he has a bone to pick... watchout
{22:22] {alva_busy> Everybody is weary of togas (reputation procedes the man? something like that )
{22:22] {mss> good point alva
{22:23] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> He's a lawyer for heavens sake
{22:23] {{GoW]UnO> Ok.
{22:23] {mss> inst Unorto?
{22:23] {alva_busy> and a good one me thinks
{22:23] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Persuading people is his job
{22:23] {{GoW]UnO> Inst?
{22:23] {mss> nod
{22:23] {mss> isnt..
{22:23] {{GoW]UnO> Hell no
{22:23] * mss bows
{22:23] {{GoW]UnO> If you must no, I run a warehouse.
{22:24] {{GoW]UnO> very INTERESTING warehouse, but a warehouse.
{22:24] {alva_busy> He wasn't on the OJ team, was he
{22:24] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> And a haunted ont
{22:24] {mss> You are organized
{22:24] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> one
{22:24] {{GoW]UnO> Im a freak for organization
{22:24] {mss> that you are... I respect that
{22:24] {{GoW]UnO> When you report for 3 billion $ in assets to the airforce, it breeds you to become organized...
{22:24] {alva_busy> back to topic? we seem to have wandered somewhat....
{22:24] {mss> back to point... your worry about the smear campaign
{22:25] {alva_busy> beat ya
{22:25] {mss> lol
{22:25] {{GoW]UnO> We are rapped up, all but what GS added to the agenda.
{22:25] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I gotta go, I have a whole bunch of Gate Guards I have to prepare in the morning
{22:26] {{GoW]UnO> You have harbors comming online soon?
{22:26] {{GoW]UnO> How soon?
{22:26] {nbarclay> My father just called a few minutes ago, so I'm out of the loop right now if anyone's wondering.
{22:26] {mss> BTW we ay GS appreciate the support we got from you in thepublic forum today
{22:26] {mss> at gs..
{22:26] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> What support?
{22:26] {{GoW]UnO> and don't we also need a map to trade via them?
{22:26] {mss> not jumping to conclusions,
{22:26] {{GoW]UnO> GF, from me
{22:26] {alva_busy> 4 - 6 turns?
{22:26] {mss> both
{22:26] {nye> no, uno. we can initiate trades.
{22:26] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Way to go UnOrtho!
{22:27] {mss> You didnt jump to "oh poor Vox"
{22:27] {{GoW]UnO> I said to hel with it and stated my mind.
{22:27] {{GoW]UnO> nye, ok.
{22:27] {mss> That is why I think we are similar, team wise..
{22:27] {{GoW]UnO> What are you wanting for furs and insence?
{22:28] {{GoW]UnO> And possibly Iron later.
{22:28] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Furs and Incense, for instance
{22:28] {mss> You have wins no?
{22:28] {nye> what lux's do you have. (bad pun)
{22:28] {mss> wines
{22:28] {{GoW]UnO> Wine.
{22:28] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> Just one win against Lux
{22:28] {mss> lol
{22:28] {{GoW]UnO> we have a lux worker...
{22:29] {{GoW]UnO> all that remains....
{22:29] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> We have wine and eventually Gems
{22:29] {mss> How long to gems?
{22:29] {{GoW]UnO> Im so outdated on our map...
{22:30] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> not sure, my city schedule got thrown off schedule
{22:30] {{GoW]UnO> We need to get Aro back and making maps...
{22:30] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> What happened to Aro?
{22:30] {{GoW]UnO> He's recording a CD with his band
{22:31] {Trip-> at least he went out in style :P
{22:31] {{GoW]UnO> Im buying a copy straight from him
{22:31] {Trip-> is it in Portuguese?
{22:31] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> No digital
{22:31] {{GoW]UnO> I don't care. I listen to Operah and don't understand half of it.
{22:32] {Trip-> :P
{22:32] * Trip- crawls back to the C3C forums
{22:32] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I can't understand Opral either
{22:32] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> oprah
{22:32] * mss is now known as mss_brb_wife_calls
{22:32] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> She heard my Oprah comment 
{22:33] {{GoW]UnO> NYE, nathan, where are we on the lux? Is this best saved for PM's?
{22:33] {{GoW]UnO> I need to go soon...
{22:33] {{GoW]GhengisFarb> I am really leaving now.
{22:33] {nye> pm, i thin uno
{22:33] * {GoW]GhengisFarb has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
{22:33] {{GoW]UnO> Sounds like a plan.
{22:33] {{GoW]Panzer32> ok, good. Its late here
{22:33] {nye> may i ask, what is gow's official position on the future of vox?
{22:33] {{GoW]UnO> I want to thank you guys for listening.
{22:34] {{GoW]jdd2007> kill them all!
{22:34] {nye> besides the contracts
{22:34] {Trip-> haha
{22:34] {Trip-> jdd speaks up at last
{22:34] {{GoW]UnO> Right now, to let them live because of our tech deal.
{22:34] {nye> beyond tech?
{22:34] {{GoW]UnO> We also wouldn't mind seeing someone on the lego island just to take up some of that MASSIVE space.
{22:34] * mss_brb_wife_calls is now known as mss
{22:35] {{GoW]UnO> Beyond that, it's all PR stuff truthfully.
{22:35] {nye> they do have a lot of space, according to aeson's tile count
{22:35] {nye> but of course, you can see the coasts
{22:35] {{GoW]UnO> Last map I saw was pretty big...
{22:35] {{GoW]UnO> perhaps it is 2 seperate islands, though...
{22:35] {nye> do you think lego woulf take them?
{22:36] {{GoW]UnO> there was allot of fog. Im not up on the map...Panzer?
{22:36] {mss> I have to go.... can some one from GS get the log
{22:36] {nye> yes, mss
{22:36] {{GoW]UnO> Don't know. We were trting a 3 way chat, but it fell through.
{22:36] {{GoW]Panzer32> yes, the map?
{22:36] {{GoW]UnO> trying.
{22:36] * mss bows out and bids all g'nite
{22:36] {{GoW]UnO> yes, lego, large, correct?
{22:36] {nye> g'night
{22:36] * mss has left #GoW_CoFA
{22:37] {{GoW]Panzer32> yes
{22:37] {{GoW]UnO> lots of unclaimed.
{22:37] {{GoW]UnO> ?
{22:37] {{GoW]Panzer32> thanks for the leading q's there Unortho
{22:37] {{GoW]Panzer32>
{22:37] {{GoW]UnO> They are having barb 'troubles'
{22:37] {alva_busy> Disclaimer"not official" blah: How about swapping worldmaps?
{22:38] {{GoW]Panzer32> The southern section is actually 70% claimed from what we can see on the coast.
{22:38] {nye> it is large, yes?
{22:38] {{GoW]UnO> We would certainly be open to something along those lines.
{22:38] {{GoW]Panzer32> The northern section is not as good terrain, and I haven't seen any indication that it has been settled.
{22:38] {{GoW]Panzer32> one minute, starting the game
{22:39] {{GoW]UnO> That would need aproval from the team, though.
{22:39] {nye> of course
{22:39] {{GoW]UnO> Our concern is the Barb farming.
{22:39] {{GoW]UnO> lots o free gold to be had.
{22:39] {nye> yes
{22:39] {{GoW]Panzer32> I think I would support trading WMs
{22:40] {nye> when was the last time gow spoke with rp about the vox situation?
{22:40] {{GoW]UnO> we tried earlier this week, but it all fell through (server crashed)
{22:41] {nye> not much luck with chats lately
{22:41] {{GoW]UnO> nope.
{22:41] {{GoW]Panzer32> The southern/Eastern section of Legoland is about as large as RP's territory (including the part RP hasn't settled yet)
{22:42] {{GoW]Panzer32> we have no idea of the size of the Northern part
{22:42] {{GoW]UnO> yet.
{22:42] {{GoW]Panzer32> all we see on it are mountains, hills and deserts
{22:42] {{GoW]Panzer32> yes, Uno
{22:42] {nye> as we calculated. they should be larger than you
{22:42] {nye> i mean rp
{22:42] {{GoW]Panzer32> our galley is almost circled around the SE part
{22:43] {{GoW]UnO> OH, hell yes.
{22:43] {{GoW]Panzer32> yes, we know they are
{22:43] {{GoW]UnO> A bit deceiving on tile count, though.
{22:43] {{GoW]UnO> we have several cities not expanded yet.
{22:43] {nye> hense, some gow posts about... 'wait a minute, who should we be concerned about?'
{22:44] {{GoW]UnO> posts? or questions?
{22:44] {nye> both, i guess.
{22:44] {{GoW]Panzer32> I wonder how happy Legoland was to find themselves on an island?
{22:44] {{GoW]UnO> Yes, we are cocerned about Bob, and RP/ND splitting it north/south/
{22:45] {{GoW]UnO> And Lego in the long run.
{22:45] {nye> hmmm
{22:45] {{GoW]Panzer32> Lego has at least 3 irons
{22:46] {nye> are you keeping up with rp and nd in strength?
{22:46] {{GoW]UnO> We could hold our own against either ONE.
{22:46] {{GoW]UnO> Not both, likely.
{22:46] {{GoW]UnO> It would be a defensive front.
{22:46] {nye> i see
{22:47] {{GoW]UnO> Riders are good for patrolling, so splitting the forces shoudn't pose too much problem.
{22:47] {{GoW]Panzer32> one problem is our shape, since we are pretty narrow on top of ND.
{22:47] {alva_busy> RP is not likely to leave a door open though (for us), I doubt they would come full capacity at you (which is quite far)
{22:49] {{GoW]UnO> It has crossed our minds that it may be opportunity for you to attack as well, given the short distance between us.
{22:49] {{GoW]UnO> Can you assure us that will not happen?
{22:49] {{GoW]UnO> I think we can probably hold our own otherwise.
{22:49] {alva_busy> ever or short-term?
{22:50] {{GoW]UnO> Well, you need to eventuall to win.
{22:50] {{GoW]UnO>
{22:50] {nye> as i said, uno. we have no plans to go to bob, and no invitations.
{22:50] {{GoW]UnO> We understand that.
{22:50] {nye> we are also likely to remeber who did not completely isolate us.
{22:50] {{GoW]UnO> How will we be informed of an invitation?
{22:50] {alva_busy> nah, we would be glad to get this VOX thin done and over with.
{22:50] {nye> you could invite us.
{22:51] {{GoW]UnO> Could there be an agreement that we each agree to notify x turns before attacking?
{22:51] {{GoW]Panzer32> I think you having the lighthouse sort of makes the idea of invasion a more reasonable fear
{22:51] {{GoW]UnO> each other that is.
{22:51] {Trip-> LoL
{22:51] {Trip-> "Hey, we'll be attacking you in 10 turns"
{22:51] {Trip->
{22:51] {{GoW]UnO> Or a NAP
{22:51] {nye> a good question for pm's uno. beyond the ability of any gs member to comit to on the spot.
{22:52] {{GoW]UnO> NAP for X turns sounds like a reasonable deal we could make.
{22:52] {{GoW]UnO> We both have a history of trust.
{22:52] {{GoW]UnO> Panzer?
{22:52] {nye> yes. that sounds reasonable, except for... contracts?
{22:52] {alva_busy> Yup, but you know what RP would think of that
{22:52] {{GoW]UnO> (non agression pact)
{22:53] {{GoW]UnO> THis would be a contract, preempting our making any new ones against you.
{22:53] {{GoW]Panzer32> NAP sounds OK
{22:53] {{GoW]UnO> (after the current affair.
{22:53] {{GoW]UnO> who says RP needs to know?
{22:53] {nye> so. we... look past 4 or 6 units involved in our war, and assure you that we will stay our of your war?
{22:54] {{GoW]jdd2007> what mama dont know wont hurt her
{22:54] {{GoW]UnO> If war happens.
{22:54] {{GoW]UnO> we don't know as of now.
{22:54] {{GoW]Panzer32> as long as our 4 mercenary units are not involved in the NAP, then sure
{22:54] {nye> heh. sounds like a good deal, for one of us.
{22:55] {{GoW]UnO> there are 4 units, you already killed 2.
{22:55] {alva_busy> wow, sarcasm overdrive
{22:55] {nye> yes. and now we need to worry about 4 more.
{22:55] {{GoW]UnO> And we certainly understand, I was proposing for after that is finished.
{22:55] {nye> i see, uno. i am trying hard not to react too poorly, but perhaps you can see our pov?
{22:56] {{GoW]UnO> certainly.
{22:56] {{GoW]UnO> I expected as much.
{22:56] {nye> i certainly will not say 'no', bacause i am not inclined to, and neither am i empowered to.
{22:56] {nye> it would be good to take up with zeit.
{22:56] {{GoW]UnO> Im trying not to push your buttons in an attempt to see what is really on your mind.
{22:57] {{GoW]UnO>
{22:57] {nye> hehe. no doubt
{22:57] {nye> to be honest?
{22:57] {{GoW]UnO> always a best bet.
{22:57] {nye> gs wants nothing more than to finish vox and return to peace.
{22:57] {alva_busy> auw, this is gonna hurt
{22:57] {nye> we are not overly warlike by nature, unless provoked.
{22:58] {{GoW]UnO> GoW wants be done with this contract as well.
{22:58] {nye> if those 4 units do not cause much fuss, if any, then i cannot see myself being opposed to an nap.
{22:58] {alva_busy> Yeah, but you did accept it and profited from it.
{22:59] {{GoW]UnO> And can you blame us for profitting?
{22:59] {nye> but, i was a dove, and events quickly put to hood on me.
{22:59] {alva_busy> nope, certainly not
{22:59] {{GoW]UnO> we have said all along we are mercenaries
{23:00] {alva_busy> well, anyone can be mercenairies, lego will probably go to war someday aswell...
{23:00] {{GoW]Panzer32> but we advertise!
{23:00] {alva_busy> lol
{23:00] {{GoW]UnO> I can see that GS needs to go back and discuss things. There is allot here to digest for both of us.
{23:01] {nye> yes
{23:01] {alva_busy> many good things
{23:01] {{GoW]UnO> Good and bad both.
{23:01] {{GoW]UnO> Honest all the way around.
{23:01] {alva_busy> as always...
{23:02] {{GoW]UnO> I thank you all for taking the time to meet with us, and hopefully we can do it again later.
{23:02] {{GoW]UnO> Hopefully on more mutually beneficial terms.
{23:02] {nye> thanks to you as well, uno, and the rest of gow.
{23:02] {alva_busy> :b
{23:02] {{GoW]Panzer32> thank you too, and youre welcome!
{23:02] {{GoW]UnO> Panzer, you have a log?
{23:03] {{GoW]Panzer32> I believe so
{23:03] {nye> take care, and keep us informed of events on bob. we react slowly due to our nature
{23:03] {alva_busy> hehe
{23:03] {{GoW]UnO> NYE, nathan, alva thanks, this was far more pleasant than I thought it might go, given the information to be digested.
{23:03] {nye> it is interesting that the 'one' voice was placed next to the cacaphony
{23:03] {alva_busy> uno, will you mke a list suggestions to be sent to GS?
{23:03] {{GoW]UnO> Hey, I fully understand GS, and their politics. Slow is fine
{23:04] {alva_busy> lol
{23:04] {nye> uno. we are realistic. not weasels as it appears some others may be
{23:04] {Trip-> you callin me a weasel? :P
{23:04] {nye> hehe
{23:04] {{GoW]Panzer32> I have the chat log. Anyone from GS want it (if they didn't log it)?
{23:05] {{GoW]UnO> I have for PMs: NAP after the current situation, price for lux's, anything else?
{23:05] {{GoW]Panzer32> now play nice
{23:05] {nye> please forward it to me, panzer.
{23:05] {alva_busy> world map?
{23:05] {{GoW]UnO> Ah, yes.
{23:05] {{GoW]UnO> thanks
{23:05] {nye> notyoueither@hothmail dot com
{23:05] {alva_busy> unit placement (if we are quick?)
{23:05] {nye> you can spell hotmail, right? i can't appearently
{23:05] {{GoW]UnO> NYE, you just call me a weasel?
{23:06] {nye> no. not you uno
{23:06] {nye> and not anyone from gow
{23:06] {Trip-> just me :P
{23:06] {{GoW]UnO> darn, I thought I might add that to my list of quotes for after this game is over.
{23:06] {{GoW]UnO> Im getting quite a collection.
{23:06] {nye> and some of the other self righteous voices, perhaps.
{23:07] {Trip->
{23:07] {{GoW]Panzer32> sent to NYE
{23:07] {nye> thanks, panzer
{23:07] {{GoW]UnO> Ok, you post the log, Ill do a summary, K panzer?
{23:07] {{GoW]Panzer32> ok
{23:07] {{GoW]UnO> jdd, don't be such a stragner.
{23:08] {{GoW]Panzer32> new thread or use an old one, Uno?
{23:08] {{GoW]UnO> you can post now and then, you know.
{23:08] {{GoW]UnO> I think we should do a thread for this.
{23:08] {{GoW]UnO> Ill have plenty of PM's for the other one.
{23:08] {{GoW]UnO> keep discussion seperate.
{23:08] {{GoW]Panzer32> k
{23:08] {alva_busy> oh, and uno, try to set the beginning of a new chat
{23:09] {{GoW]UnO> Certainly, we want this routine?
{23:09] {{GoW]UnO> Even just for FYI stuff?
{23:09] {alva_busy> sure, not daily though
{23:09] {{GoW]UnO> between our teams?
{23:09] {{GoW]UnO> bi-weekly?
{23:09] {alva_busy> sounds good
{23:09] {nye> nothing is lost by talking. much stands to be gained
{23:09] {{GoW]jdd2007> im sorry Un0
{23:09] {{GoW]UnO> (every 2 weeks, that was.
{23:09] {alva_busy> if more pressing-->sooner
{23:10] {nye> sounds good. m-t-w would be better
{23:10] * Trip- is now known as Trip{sleep]
{23:10] {{GoW]UnO> Sounds good. Now Im on you guys full time, youll be hearing allot. :P
{23:10] {alva_busy> Hey I'm not stupid ok
{23:10] {nye> oh oh. lots of reading
{23:10] {{GoW]UnO> Just trying to spam your forum with PM's
{23:10] {{GoW]Panzer32> chat log posted
{23:11] {alva_busy> good, we could use more spam???
{23:11] * alva_busy shakes head
{23:11] {alva_busy> Ok, that's it?
{23:12] {{GoW]UnO> yep, let's all get some sleep.
{23:12] {nye> g'night
{23:12] {alva_busy> it's 7 am here, time to go to bed
{23:12] {{GoW]UnO> or, for HE, get back to work?
{23:12] {{GoW]UnO> Or is it the weekend there?
{23:12] {{GoW]jdd2007> good night all
{23:12] {alva_busy> nighty night
{23:12] {{GoW]jdd2007> see ya later
{23:12] * {GoW]jdd2007 has left #GoW_CoFA
{23:12] * alva_busy has quit IRC (Quit: )
{23:14] * {GoW]UnO has left #GoW_CoFA
{23:19] * {GoW]Panzer32 has quit IRC (Quit: )
Session Close: Fri Jun 13 23:25:38 2003
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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From UnO:
quote:
Honorable zeit,
It was a shame that I could not speak with you personally.
However, it was a productive chat I feel. There is much for both teams to digest, and I espect that you and I are going to be quite busy in the weeks to come.
Please express my gratitude once again to the members of your team. I truly enjoyed the chat, difficult as it was at times, and hope that we will make it a regular occurance to a mutual benefit to both our teams.
respectfully
UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm
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Reply:
quote:
Honorable zeit,
It was a shame that I could not speak with you personally.
However, it was a productive chat I feel. There is much for both teams to digest, and I espect that you and I are going to be quite busy in the weeks to come.
Please express my gratitude once again to the members of your team. I truly enjoyed the chat, difficult as it was at times, and hope that we will make it a regular occurance to a mutual benefit to both our teams.
respectfully
UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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about our Eng. scheme:
quote:
Honorable UnOrthOdOx.
I hope all is fine in the lands of the Glory of War.
In an effort to solve the problem of the loss you and other teams will suffer from in the event of a Voxian demise, I have come up with an Idea to provide you with Engineering, without relying on Vox.
We were informed by ND that they are working on Engineering, and would acquire approximately when Vox plans to. ND expressed their willingness to sell us the tech, and hence the following idea, this was not discussed with ND yet, but a PM was also sent to them regarding this
This includes ND selling the tech for a very low price, to compensate the loss of gold resulting from any downpayment Vox has recieved from you. GoW would have to back down from the deal with Vox, but you have already expressed interest in getting the tech from us, so I don't see this as a big problem.
We were thinking that insuring a source for Eng. for everyone interested, would reduce the foreign interest in Vox's prolonged survival, except for weakening the GS, of course.
I hope you can see the possible benefits you can have from this: a safe source for a tech you are now not so sure you could have, this will also allow you more freedom in dealing with us in the future, or as GF would have said: "take less heat".
Please tell me if you are interested, and if you think this could work with the other teams.
Cordially
Zeit, Ambassador to the Glory of War.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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from UnO, re: trades and NAP:
quote:
Honorable zeit,
Forgive me for not attending to this earlier. As you may have guessed GoW is having some minor problems internally that needed my attention first.
Just to let you guys know, it seems that there were some things said in the poly chat room towards some members of our team and it was not taken well due to the public nature as much as what was said. In all honesty, I foresaw this comming some time ago, frankly, based upon the psychology of the members that were involved. Everything should be fine shortly, I believe.
Ok, on to the important stuff, eh?
We left off several items that were on the agenda for the chat in the interest of speeding that along as well as for each team to come to a concensus.
First and foremost, it seems that our employer is going to cancel the contract that was signed in order for us to assist Vox. There was discussion in the chat of the possibility of a Non Aggression Pact between GoW and Gathering Storm.
We can set it up for X # of turns, and it will allow GS to focus on building the infrastructure that they have missed out by spending their GA in warfare without fear of anyone landing any time soon without warning. No other nation would have access to GS without GoW being able to see them until after galleys (without risk, that is)
Please take this to your team and see if it is at all a possibility and we can hammer out the length and any other terms later.
Second is the trading of maps. We are quite proud with our mapping and have been leading the way in that field and attempting to map the coast of Legoland. Is this still something GS is interested in? I feel that GoW would be willing to make a straight trade no problem, but that is not official at the moment.
Third is the possible trading of Wine, Furs, Incense, and Iron. We momentarily have Iron right now, but that will dissolve should hostilities break out on Bob. What we need to know is what you are willing to give for Wine and what you want in return for Furs, Incense, and Iron. Each.
Sorry for the short and formal wording of this, but I am a bit pressed for time.
Until later
UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm
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a reply:
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx.
I hope all went well on your extended weekend trip.
The cancellation of your contract against us is met with a great sigh of relief, followed by a sincere smile. This times might be good times after all
I was waiting for your arrival, so that we could discuss the two later issue you have presented, but you have beaten me to it.
I cannot reply with a formal proposal on each, but I can assure you a trade can be arranged on each of the commodities you have mentioned (the Luxuries, Iron and the Maps).
A map for map trade could probably work, but I can't guarantee that yet.
As for the Luxuries: Wine for X and gpt (or lump sum) for the other Luxury would be possible. As for the Iron, I would probably say this will be payed with gold, although the exact nature of the contract will have to be further discussed. Also: perhaps gold payment on your hand could be transferred into a future discount on Chivalry.
Lastly, the NAP issue: we are currently debating that amidst ourselves, as you realize this is a quite "heavy" issue. I suggest we resolve the issues of trade first, and then consider the prospect of a NAP.
Looking forward to do business with you.
Zeit, Ambassador to the Gathering Storm. |
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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From UnO: quote:
Honorable zeit,
I am sorry to be speaking to you in such a rush, but my time is short.
Panzer apparantly had a chat with Shiber this afternoon and there was some confusion expressed reguarding the upcomming deals. Shiber aparantly had the impression that we were offering Chivalry for free in exchange for incense and Iron along with a no-trade clause.
Just to be sure we are all together, the offers as stands are:
Chivalry: GS agrees to pay 200 Gold. GoW is asking what it would take to add a 10 turn No Trade Clause to this.
Wines For Furs: Straight up trade(already agreed to?)
Map for Map: Straight up trade (already agreed to?)
Incense and Iron: GoW will evaluate each as the need arises.
Non Agression Pact: GoW is asking what it would take to sign one for 20, 30, 40, and 50 turns. Also asking for a clarification of GS stance of breaking deals, ie is breaking a lux trade against your code of honor?
Hope this clears whatever confusion has arised, and hope to hear from you soon on these points.
UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador to GS
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My reply:
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx,
I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding among our ranks, which was partially due to my fault. I believe Shiber has already sent an apology for Panzer. As for the details of the trade- the GS agrees to these terms. However, let me remind you that "when the need arises" as you have stated, the price of Iron and a second Luxury could be more than 200 gold that we will be paying now for the tech.
The GS is willing to send you a supply of these two commodities, the Luxuries can be sent right away, and the Iron when your current contract ends, for any given reason.
Like I said, the choice is yours- we can pay those 200 gold when the tech is due, or we can agree to the arrangement I proposed.
As for breaking any deals, of which Luxury trades are no different- this is strictly against our code of conduct. Of course, in case of war, the agressor will be considered as the treaty violator, but unfortunately (or not... ) as we all know, moral justice in times of war is a disputed and vague matter at best. I can assure you, though, that the GS has no intention of breaking our trading agreements.
About NAP- for the time being, our team has decided against it as a general policy. I'll be most glad to elaborate on our considerations and reasoning in my next message.
Waiting to hear from you soon.
Zeit, Ambassador to the Glory of War. |
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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Session Start: Sat Jun 21 21:29:03 2003
Session Ident: #GoW
[21:29] * Now talking in #GoW
[21:29] * Topic is 'The Glory Of Chat'
[21:29] * Set by MasterZen on Fri May 30 15:56:10
[21:29] {notyoueither> hello
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> Hi.
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> Good to see you.
[21:29] {notyoueither> good to be here
[21:29] {MasterZen> welcome to our little neck of the woods
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> I was trying to meet GF for some RoN action, but he is having connection troubles, nice to be productive anyway...
[21:30] {notyoueither> always good to be productive.
[21:30] {UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps you can clear some confusion that we have?
[21:30] {notyoueither> would love to, if i can
[21:30] {MasterZen> we've been getting mixed responses from your team
[21:30] {notyoueither> understood.
[21:31] {UnOrthOdOx> We are utterly confused with the lack of interest in a non-aggression pact...ie, a pact where we both promise not to declare war...
[21:31] {UnOrthOdOx> Is this not an option?
[21:31] {MasterZen> which strikes us all the more strange since Shiber and zeit have constantly told us that you had no intentions on Bob
[21:32] {notyoueither> ahhh. well, we have a feeling that signing an nap with one power of bob, could destabilize bob
[21:32] {UnOrthOdOx> Why exactly?
[21:32] {UnOrthOdOx> Who says the others need to know?
[21:32] {MasterZen> unless it is made public...
[21:32] {MasterZen> it's not an alliance or a mutial-protection pact... it's just a NAP
[21:33] {notyoueither> the thinking goes that the other 2 powers might get uptight. they may feel isolated.
[21:33] {UnOrthOdOx> From my POV, it seemse that it is in your best interest to sign with EVERYONE if you indeed wish to be builders.
[21:33] {MasterZen> if it's private they won't
[21:33] {notyoueither> that might precipitate action, when action is not deisred
[21:34] {notyoueither> UnOrthO, if we signed with everyone, we would miss out on the fun, should any commence. No?
[21:34] {MasterZen> so then you do have intentions
[21:34] {notyoueither> no
[21:34] {UnOrthOdOx> So you are not discounting POSSIBLE actions?
[21:34] {notyoueither> zeit and shiber have been truthful. we have no plans to go to bob
[21:35] {UnOrthOdOx> At present.
[21:35] {MasterZen> so if you don't have intentions, why are you considering joining in on the "fun"?
[21:35] {UnOrthOdOx> and for the record, that is not an answer to the question.
[21:36] {notyoueither> well, we would be fools to sit to one side if matters having a major impact on us were taking place
[21:36] {notyoueither> and we were to do nothing
[21:36] {MasterZen> how exactly does something in our continent impact you?
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> MZ, please, we both know the answer there...
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> This IS civ after all.
[21:36] {notyoueither> true
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> They don't want a superpower.
[21:36] {MasterZen> of course, but this is diplomacy
[21:37] {UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps we should ask, then, what would it take for you to join in?
[21:37] {notyoueither> oh. good question.
[21:38] {UnOrthOdOx> And the one I personally am confused on...
[21:38] {MasterZen> or join out? (depending on which side you end up thinking on joining)
[21:38] {notyoueither> probably our appraisal that our interests were at stake to a large degree.
[21:38] {notyoueither> that would get us examining scenarios
[21:39] {MasterZen> any scenario you can picture has one of us 3 bobians getting destroyed
[21:39] {UnOrthOdOx> Would Gathering Storm ever break a 20-turn trade agreement by being the agressors?
[21:39] {notyoueither> we do not wish that
[21:39] * Hot_Enamel has joined #GoW
[21:40] {UnOrthOdOx> hey He.
[21:40] {UnOrthOdOx> HE
[21:40] {notyoueither> hi
[21:40] {Hot_Enamel> Hi
[21:40] {MasterZen> hey
[21:40] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Hot_Enamel
[21:40] {Hot_Enamel> Just lurking ..
[21:40] {notyoueither> Good question, UnorthO. We have not discussed that. It would go against our nature, though.
[21:41] {notyoueither> do you mind if i dispense with the caps. i find the shift key a bother
[21:41] {UnOrthOdOx> Not at all.
[21:41] {MasterZen> np
[21:41] {notyoueither> thank you
[21:41] {UnOrthOdOx> Im just used to typing...stories and all.
[21:42] {notyoueither> no doubt
[21:42] {UnOrthOdOx> 80 WPM...
[21:42] {MasterZen> I'm just used to arguing
[21:42] {notyoueither> on chicken back?
[21:42] {notyoueither>
[21:43] {UnOrthOdOx> Would you then be more likely to join on the side of the one receiving the aggression?
[21:44] {UnOrthOdOx> In other words.
[21:44] {MasterZen> help the underdog..
[21:44] {UnOrthOdOx> Or pile on to prevent a monopoly of Bob.
[21:44] {notyoueither> no. gs would not make decesions based on being paladins
[21:45] {MasterZen> in other words then you would value a long-term relationship as a basis on which to support?
[21:45] {UnOrthOdOx> Dear god, I hate lawfull good...
[21:45] {MasterZen> hahah... me too
[21:45] {UnOrthOdOx> Im more a Neutral-neutral myself.
[21:45] {notyoueither> we would be very unlikely to pile on as well, unless there were compelling reasons
[21:46] {MasterZen> sound's to me you'd be better off neutral
[21:46] {notyoueither> that is the path we are sterring vis-a-vis bob
[21:46] {notyoueither> *stearing
[21:47] {UnOrthOdOx> Do you have any long term plans yet?
[21:47] {notyoueither> may i ask, is GoW concerened that you are a target of an attack?
[21:48] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes we are.
[21:48] {UnOrthOdOx> We hope we are not, but must plan for the worst.
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> Which, without a NAP would include GS.
[21:49] {notyoueither> ahhh. i feel safe in assuring you that attacking GoW is about the least likely thing for us to do.
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> May I ask something completely off topic?
[21:49] {notyoueither> sure
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> Do you guys have long-term plans?
[21:50] {notyoueither> yes, as far as they can be made in an mp mad house
[21:50] {UnOrthOdOx> and are you opposed to making them together, perhaps?
[21:50] {UnOrthOdOx> Looking at this game, GS will need to go a conquering eventually.
[21:51] {UnOrthOdOx> Unless, of course you are shooting for a diplo win.
[21:51] {notyoueither> possibly. the same can be said of some other teams
[21:51] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes, of course.
[21:51] {notyoueither> or, we could cut the crap and just fess up that conquest is part of this game.
[21:51] {MasterZen> you know, if only 3 civs survive and Vox is one of them, a diplo victory is actually feasable...
[21:52] {UnOrthOdOx> Everyone, almost, needs to.
[21:52] {notyoueither> ahem. did i say that?
[21:52] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes, let's go ahead and cut the crap out.
[21:52] {notyoueither> go ahead
[21:53] {UnOrthOdOx> If there is a conflict on Bob, and we end up NOT being the target, is there a team you would prefer us to back? so to speak?
[21:53] {UnOrthOdOx> Also, in the future, do you guys have your eye on anywhere in particular?
[21:54] {UnOrthOdOx> Nevermind... you likely need a map first.
[21:55] {notyoueither> very good, and direct questions
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Hey, that's me.
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Tact is no my forte
[21:55] {MasterZen> neither is mine
[21:55] {MasterZen> but nye already knows that
[21:55] {notyoueither> i do not need a map to know who will win this game if left unmolested. we have done a tile count and come up extremely short.
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Which is why I don't even try MZ...
[21:56] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok...can you say?
[21:56] {notyoueither> what that means is, there are a certain number of land tiles to be expected in a game with these settings.
[21:56] {notyoueither> we cannot see a huge number of them, even after seeing all of bob
[21:57] {notyoueither> we did not need to float past lego major and minor to know that
[21:57] {UnOrthOdOx> So we are both then agreed that eventually Lego will become the dominating team if left unchecked?
[21:57] {notyoueither> yes
[21:58] {notyoueither> that is clear
[21:58] {UnOrthOdOx> We can also agree how difficult a naval assault can be as well?
[21:58] {notyoueither> doubly clear
[21:58] {notyoueither> forget it after rr's
[21:58] {MasterZen> and should we wait till RR it will be well near impossible
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, we are all together then.
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> Would you be opposed to planning that far ahead together?
[21:59] {notyoueither> it seems we are thinking along parallel paths
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> And, what is the nature of the Voxodus, if we can ask?
[21:59] {notyoueither> we would welcome the possibility of longer term relations
[22:00] {UnOrthOdOx> Basically, is Vox going to Lego?
[22:00] {notyoueither> yes
[22:00] {notyoueither> we believe so
[22:00] {UnOrthOdOx> Are they willing to become a staging point in the future? or was that not a part of the deal?
[22:00] {notyoueither> it is not said in so many words, but it seems clear. unless rp is in the weeds
[22:01] {notyoueither> no future deals. they leave and they live. we help them leave, in planning and execution
[22:01] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok. It seemed like a decent idea to have them as a staging area as well...
[22:01] {MasterZen> it's still viable...
[22:01] {UnOrthOdOx> Though, trust would be a problem there.
[22:02] {UnOrthOdOx> possibly.
[22:02] {notyoueither> that would be a very solid idea, if they would agree.
[22:02] {MasterZen> just give them some time
[22:02] {MasterZen> to "re-settle"
[22:03] {notyoueither> there is mention of two distinct legos. linked by a narrow strip
[22:03] {UnOrthOdOx> Is there any other teams you are close enough to to also bring in on this?
[22:03] {UnOrthOdOx> Surely we can all see the logic.
[22:03] {notyoueither> well, all of bob, providing you didn't rip each other to pieces first
[22:04] {UnOrthOdOx> Indeed.
[22:04] {Hot_Enamel> Re: two distict Legos - Our galley confirms this
[22:05] {notyoueither> easy then for lego to seal off?
[22:06] {notyoueither> better than a beach head though?
[22:06] {MasterZen> in principle we're all for this, however, the situation on Bob, should we be the ones on the recieving end will make it very unlikely we can participate meaningfully if we survive. However, should we be on the "winning" side, yould you consider joining with the winners for this end?
[22:07] {UnOrthOdOx> There are basically two options on Bob.
[22:07] {Hot_Enamel> Connected by 1 tile .. easily defended just like Eliopolis
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> RP has plenty of land south. They decide to join ND and attack north and split N/S
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, three options.
[22:08] {MasterZen> that is our personal nightmare
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> We join RP and attack ND splitting N/S...
[22:08] {notyoueither> i can see
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> Or we join ND and split it screwy fashioned.
[22:09] {UnOrthOdOx> I can assure you RP has no interest in the second option.
[22:09] {MasterZen> "screwy"... haha
[22:09] {MasterZen> alhtough they are jittery about getting attacked by ND
[22:09] {UnOrthOdOx> Or that is a front from Togas.
[22:09] {MasterZen> as are we
[22:09] {notyoueither> hmmm. it is as we have calculated.
[22:10] {UnOrthOdOx> RP can also stay put and eventually dominate Bob.
[22:10] {notyoueither> that is part of our calculation.
[22:11] {notyoueither> so that leaves you and nd v them, or them and nd v you
[22:11] {MasterZen> look, because of our land and our position, it will be impossible for us to stay neutral
[22:11] {notyoueither> very clear
[22:11] {MasterZen> we will either get thrashed by them because they think we are targets
[22:12] {UnOrthOdOx> Or ND going nuts. They are a bit thinking all of Apolyton is against them, who can blame them?
[22:12] {MasterZen> or we must seek to join the likely victory, or the one which we get most benefits of allying with
[22:12] {MasterZen> *victor
[22:13] {notyoueither> i would imagine you have sounded out rp and nd thoroughly in these matters
[22:13] {MasterZen> Should an ND-RP war break out, we will take sides
[22:13] {UnOrthOdOx> "Sounded out" Togas? LOL
[22:13] {MasterZen> hahaha
[22:13] {notyoueither> hehe. loud?
[22:13] {MasterZen> I try though...
[22:14] {MasterZen> but you know Togas...
[22:14] {MasterZen> RP has been rather quiet lately
[22:14] {UnOrthOdOx> I got to get him in on a poker game.
[22:15] {notyoueither> rl poker?
[22:15] {UnOrthOdOx> Sure.
[22:15] {UnOrthOdOx> Im in Cali often enough...
[22:15] {notyoueither> oh. you have to, not you have
[22:16] {notyoueither> brb
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> MZ, are you logging?
[22:16] {MasterZen> yes
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, I gtg, actually.
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> I'll leave it in your hands from here then.
[22:16] {MasterZen> np
[22:16] {MasterZen>
[22:16] * UnOrthOdOx has left #GoW
[22:17] {MasterZen> i'd still like to talk a little more if that's no problem...
[22:17] {notyoueither> back
[22:17] {notyoueither> which side of an nd-rp war would gow favour, if i may ask?
[22:18] {MasterZen> good question
[22:18] {MasterZen> on the one hand,
[22:19] {MasterZen> we'd like to have ND as our ally for "neighborly" reasons
[22:19] {MasterZen> however, we greatly fear that ND would eventually backstab us
[22:19] {MasterZen> especially since we'd have to split the continent in a "screwey" fashion
[22:20] {MasterZen> on the other hand,
[22:20] {MasterZen> it'd be much easier to split the continent with RP, and we'd have less to fear from them in the long run
[22:21] {MasterZen> so, I guess it would all end up being almost a last-minute decision
[22:21] {notyoueither> hmmm. you are in an interesting position
[22:21] {MasterZen> and a very difficult one mind you
[22:21] {MasterZen> you know, if we had RP's land we could afford neutrality. Sadly as it stands we can't.
[22:22] {notyoueither> i can see that
[22:22] * Hot_Enamel is now known as Hot_Enamel_away
[22:22] {MasterZen> hopefully getting Chivalry might dissade the others from considering us a target, at least for now
[22:22] {MasterZen> hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry
[22:22] {notyoueither> riders are effective
[22:23] {MasterZen> it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen
[22:23] {MasterZen> very effective, one of my favorite units
[22:23] {MasterZen> but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call...
[22:23] {notyoueither> we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism.
[22:24] {MasterZen> then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP
[22:24] {MasterZen> if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in...
[22:24] {MasterZen> and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego
[22:24] {notyoueither> yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire.
[22:25] {MasterZen> what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!!
[22:25] {notyoueither> in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests
[22:25] {notyoueither> ahh, yes. wines. we do want those. we are happy to trade for them though
[22:26] {notyoueither> i should ahve said. nothing we desire enought to create an enemy
[22:26] {MasterZen> just kidding about the wines, we're actually using them to get your stormchickens drunk and take you out
[22:26] {notyoueither> haha
[22:27] {MasterZen> oops, just revealed our long-term plans... :P
[22:27] {notyoueither> you don;t want to see them with worse aim. eventually it has to warp and they'd be deadly accurate
[22:27] {MasterZen> hahaha
[22:27] {MasterZen> although with a hangover... :P
[22:27] {notyoueither> true. we could live with it though
[22:28] {MasterZen> well, we were hoping to have another "official" chat with you guys perhaps this week
[22:28] {notyoueither> that would be good
[22:28] {notyoueither> unortho's hours?
[22:28] {MasterZen> yes, UnOrthO was arranging it
[22:29] {notyoueither> good
[22:30] {notyoueither> is there anything else?
[22:30] {MasterZen> this, as you can imagine is a more informal affair, but I think it's a start
[22:30] {notyoueither> a very good start
[22:30] {MasterZen> so you can understand the rather "peculiar" position GoW is in, and how our relationship with GS fits in
[22:30] {notyoueither> i can see your pov
[22:31] {MasterZen> good, I consider it a very good start too
[22:31] {notyoueither> i hope to see you soon then
[22:31] {MasterZen> great
[22:32] {notyoueither> bye then
[22:32] {MasterZen> you logging this?
[22:32] {notyoueither> i hope so. can you send it to me if i goofed?
[22:32] {MasterZen> sure
[22:32] {notyoueither> thanks
[22:32] {notyoueither> bye
[22:32] {MasterZen> see ya at ISDG
[22:32] {MasterZen> hahahaa
Session Close: Sat Jun 21 22:33:00 2003
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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Somewhat disturbing message from UnO:
quote:
zeit,
Forgive my rather lax nature this week. There has been allot of things happening in RL that have led to my distraction.
Based on several chats with some GS members and the recent alternative offer that GS proposed, we are considering an alternative of our own.
At present, GoW is not in need of either the extra lux or the Iron that was offered as an alternative. It is also our understanding that GS is not in any hurry to acquire Chivalry as they are not planning to use it. Would it be possible for us to simply delay the selling of it in order to assess whatever situation, if any, arises on Bob? We are unwilling to make a deal for Iron now for a hypothetical future, however, if we were to wait until we knew we needed Iron, it would be a higher priority. Would it be possible to wait until our current Iron deal expires (10-15 turns, Im not sure, OR a declaration of war) and then make either the trade for 200 gold or the iron/lux?
As for a chat time. Weekends are pretty open for the most part, however, I have a wedding and a funeral this weekend, so it is completely shot. Perhaps Monday? 02:00 should be doable for GS, but I may be a bit late in attending with anything approaching active participation.
__________________ |
Are they trying to back off from the Chivalry deal?
reply:
quote:
Honorable UnOrthOdOx,
As for Chivalry- I'm not so sure we would like to have it delayed- 200 gold now (that is, when you finish researching) for the tech is what we discussed previously, and was generally agreed upon. Adding the Iron and Lux to it was merely an idea- as we are quite willing to pay the sum.
I also would like to point out, that in 10-15 turns, the value of this tech would decline, due to ending NTA you have signed on the tech.
Like I said, there is no problem making the trade now, as far as the GS is concerned. I hope the same goes for you.
As for a chat- 0200 GMT is good for some members, but for me that's undoable. If we can arrange some other time (between 0800GMT and 2200GMT, maybe?) I'll be grateful, if not, I'm sure a chat at the times previously discussed will be possible.
Cordially,
Zeit.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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Session Start: Tue Jul 01 15:16:08 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen
[15:16] *notyoueither* hi. can we chat a moment re PTW DG?
[15:16] *MasterZen* sure thang
[15:16] *notyoueither* you are GoW FAM, correct?
[15:16] *MasterZen* you bet
[15:16] *notyoueither* cool
[15:17] *notyoueither* we sent a message 3 or 4 days ago, dod you guys get it?
[15:17] *MasterZen* to who?
[15:17] *notyoueither* let me check
[15:18] *notyoueither* June 27. zeit to Uno
[15:18] *notyoueither* Honorable UnOrthOdOx,
[15:19] *notyoueither* As for Chivalry- I'm not so sure we would like to have it delayed- 200 gold now (that is, when you finish researching) for the tech is what we discussed previously, and was generally agreed upon. Adding the Iron and Lux to it was merely an idea- as we are quite willing to pay the sum.
[15:19] *notyoueither* ...
[15:19] *notyoueither* did you get that one?
[15:20] *MasterZen* I think we did... lemme check
[15:21] *MasterZen* btw, I think we should organize a shat soon, perhaps later in the week?
[15:21] *MasterZen* *chat
[15:23] *notyoueither* that would be good
[15:24] *notyoueither* topics for chat?
[15:24] *MasterZen* I thought UnOrthO was organizing one but I haven't seen anything so far...
[15:24] *notyoueither* same here. zeit mentioned it at the end of his message
[15:24] *MasterZen* My week is pretty duty-free so I'm available any day
[15:25] *notyoueither* ok. about chivalry. you guys aren;t serious about delaying it, are you?
[15:26] *MasterZen* why, you guys want it pretty bad?
[15:26] *MasterZen*
[15:26] *notyoueither* well, yes. we want to complete the deal that began so long ago.
[15:27] *notyoueither* and we do not want to sit around without knights while riders, ansars, and then conquistadors are around
[15:28] *MasterZen* oh come one... of all civs, you should be the ones less to fear from others right now..
[15:29] *notyoueither* i think our point is that we have a deal, and we want to complete it.
[15:29] *MasterZen* don't worry, the deal will go through
[15:30] *notyoueither* we would be awefully sad if yet another deal with GoW went off the rails
[15:30] *MasterZen* UnOrthO is of course the guy with the details but I can assure you you'll get Chivalry
[15:30] *notyoueither* cool
[15:31] *notyoueither* when do you complete it?
[15:31] *MasterZen* game's pretty slow as of late, I haven't gotten the last save, don't know but it's pretty soom
[15:31] *MasterZen* damn typos
[15:32] *notyoueither* very good.
[15:33] *notyoueither* has uno been around?
[15:33] *MasterZen* I think he's been a bit busy with the SPDG nominations
[15:34] *notyoueither* maybe that is why no chat has been arranged.
[15:34] *MasterZen* zeit is online
[15:35] *MasterZen* join #GoW_CoFA
Session Close: Tue Jul 01 16:37:19 2003
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
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Session Start: Tue Jul 01 15:35:38 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
[15:35] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[15:35] *notyoueither* hello again
[15:35] *zeit* hey there
[15:36] *MasterZen* good afternoon guys
[15:36] *zeit* its good night for me
[15:36] *zeit*
[15:36] *MasterZen* where you from zeit?
[15:36] *zeit* the holy land...
[15:36] *MasterZen* ah
[15:37] *MasterZen* Mecca?
[15:37] *notyoueither* zeit and shiber are from israel
[15:37] *MasterZen* hahaha
[15:37] *zeit* lol
[15:37] *notyoueither* gs are scattered all over the place. kind of funny when you think of the name
[15:37] *MasterZen* yes, true
[15:37] *MasterZen* well, GoW is not without its variety
[15:38] *MasterZen* NZ, Mexico, Brazil, USA, Canada...
[15:38] *notyoueither* we don;t have a brazil. we'll trade you one israel for 1 brazil
[15:38] *zeit* yes, you have the americas.. and HotE, who keeps complaining about the timezone problem..,
[15:39] *MasterZen* yes, shame... we can never get him into the chats
[15:39] *MasterZen* so, what was on your mind zeit?
[15:39] *notyoueither* zeit, i was chatting with mz re chivalry
[15:39] *zeit* Chivalry
[15:39] *zeit* oh, okay
[15:39] *zeit* care to fill me in?
[15:39] *MasterZen* and I was just telling nye that don't worry, you'll get it
[15:40] *notyoueither* he said we would get it, but we haven't nailed down when they are getting it
[15:40] *MasterZen* problem is UnOrthO has been doing the details with your team...
[15:40] *zeit* yeah, but time is an issue as well
[15:40] *zeit* that's right, and I got something from him
[15:40] *zeit* I wasn't sure exactly if there was a problem or not
[15:40] *MasterZen* he's been kinda busy with the SPDG nominations...
[15:40] *zeit* that's okay
[15:40] *zeit* it was just that he suggested delaying chivalry
[15:41] *notyoueither* brb
[15:41] *zeit* as if we asked for it
[15:41] *zeit* so I wasn't sure if there was some problem with this right now
[15:41] *zeit* I'll check the message now to avoid any mistakes in quotation...
[15:42] *MasterZen* did you guys agree on anything final?
[15:42] *MasterZen* besides the fact that it could have been delayed...
[15:42] *MasterZen* I belive it was 200g
[15:42] *zeit* that's right
[15:42] *MasterZen* what about the NAP? That was something we wanted to arrange with you people
[15:42] *zeit* but I also suggested an alternative, which you didn't like- that was okay with us, as I mentioned to him...
[15:43] *zeit* but then he said something about delaying the deal, which I didn't really know where the idea came from
[15:43] *MasterZen* what was the alternative?
[15:43] *zeit* Iron+2 lux for lux and chivalry
[15:44] *zeit* but we're perfectly fine with chivalry for 200g gold
[15:44] *zeit* as well as Lux-Lux deal
[15:44] *MasterZen* yes, that would be best
[15:44] *MasterZen* I believe we also arranged a no-trade clause?
[15:45] *zeit* obviously
[15:45] *zeit* 10 turns
[15:45] *MasterZen* ok
[15:45] *zeit* but he said you want to wait 10-15 turns
[15:45] *MasterZen* delay 10-15 turns?
[15:46] *zeit* he suggested it
[15:46] *zeit* lets just we don't like the idea of delay
[15:46] *MasterZen* well, neither do I... hehehe
[15:46] *MasterZen* at least not that long
[15:46] *zeit* especially when other teams will have the tech, I'm sure you can understand that
[15:47] *zeit* do you have the tech already?
[15:48] *MasterZen* last turn I checked was 230 and no, not yet
[15:48] *zeit* okay, but i do remember something about 3 turns, and that was about 2 turns ago
[15:49] *zeit* but i could be wrong, of course
[15:49] *MasterZen* I think we might get it this turn (190) or the next something like that...
[15:49] *zeit* anyway, its certainly not that far away (1 or 2 turns)
[15:49] *zeit* why would you want to delay the selling?
[15:50] *MasterZen* I have no clue, ask UnO...
[15:50] *zeit* I did, but as you said, he's somewhat busy, and I got no reply ever since
[15:50] *MasterZen* I just PMed him right now about this whole deal.
[15:51] *zeit* I did a few days ago...
[15:51] *zeit* 3 days, to be exact
[15:51] *MasterZen* well, let's see if he answers sometime today...
[15:51] *zeit* perhaps his silence meant a yes...
[15:52] *MasterZen* but rest assured, you WILL get chivalry
[15:52] *zeit* But timing is important as well, is it not?
[15:52] *MasterZen* it seems to be incredibly important to you from what I'm hearing...
[15:53] *zeit* not incredibly, but such a tech is dangerous when you're the only one without it, right?
[15:54] *MasterZen* who does the mighty armies of the Gathering Storm have to fear?
[15:55] *zeit* Well, a delay certainly seems a bit odd at this point, after we've negotiated and agreed on a deal, don't you agree?
[15:55] *zeit* I'm sure you can understand that we don't like the idea of it
[15:56] *MasterZen* neither do we, but right now I'm looking at the deals thread and I see no "finalized" deal yet... and UnO has not PMed me with anything either
[15:57] *zeit* well, we were talking about this deal for a very very long time (from the beginning of the war with Vox, I believe) and as far as we knew, it was agreed upon
[15:57] *MasterZen* from what I'm reading you two were still negotiating and it appeared 200g for Chiv and lux-lux was the trade which was going to done
[15:58] *zeit* that's right
[15:58] *MasterZen* but again, nothing "official"
[15:58] *MasterZen* which in case either you or us should send each other an "official proposal"
[15:59] *MasterZen* gimme a sec... I'm looking at the last chat Shiber and UnO had...
[16:00] *notyoueither* mz. this deal was made when we sold feudalism to you
[16:01] *notyoueither* the deal was, feud for 200, then chiv for 200
[16:01] *notyoueither* don't tell me that GoW are going to try to renege on another deal with us.
[16:02] *zeit* he did say we WILL get chivalry
[16:02] *MasterZen* no we are not, a deal is a deal, I'm just looking at the last chat we had to sort out the details since UnO isn't here
[16:02] *MasterZen* I can't be ambassador to every team you know, that's why UnO has free reign when dealing with you
[16:03] *zeit* I think we agreed on the details, besides timing, which we took for granted as being the time you finish researching
[16:03] *notyoueither* the communications recently have gotten confused because we offered alternate payment methods that gow might like.
[16:03] *zeit* correction: we did agree on the details
[16:03] *notyoueither* but apparently not, so we are prepared to hand over the 200 any time
[16:03] *zeit* but like i said, that's just an alternative
[16:03] *notyoueither* we have been for some time
[16:04] *notyoueither* but we were told some time ago to not worry about it. i believe
[16:05] *MasterZen* look, for me the 200g deal is good, I just wan't UnO's final say on it
[16:05] *notyoueither* ok. cool. can you contact him?
[16:05] *MasterZen* I did about 10 minutes ago while we were chatting
[16:05] *MasterZen* PMed him
[16:05] *notyoueither* ok.
[16:06] *notyoueither* we look forward to hearing back soon
[16:06] *MasterZen* what about the NAP, it seems it was also being discussed...
[16:06] *zeit* that's another issue..
[16:06] *MasterZen* as well as certain "geo-strategical" details which we talked about the other day (me and nye)
[16:07] *zeit* right
[16:07] *notyoueither* me?
[16:07] *MasterZen* that's why I want a nice big official chat with your team
[16:07] *notyoueither* mz, can you tell us where your concerns lie vis-a-vis bob?
[16:07] *MasterZen* yeah, you me and UnO
[16:08] *zeit* before we have a big chat, why don't we find your ambassador
[16:08] *MasterZen* about a week ago
[16:08] *notyoueither* oh, right
[16:08] *MasterZen* you know our concerns
[16:08] *zeit* their undestandable, of course
[16:09] *notyoueither* mz. i can tell you one thing for sure.
[16:09] *MasterZen* in a nutshell: should war erupt on bob, we will do anything as to not make it RP-ND vs us
[16:09] *zeit* and I do think it was that GoW is not considered as a target by GS
[16:09] *notyoueither* we would really not like to see nd and rp vs gow
[16:10] *MasterZen* then why the reluctance on the NAP? We'd be willing to give you the wines for free for it... unfortunately "assurances" are just words, everything we do HAS to take into account the possibility that GS will intervene...
[16:10] *notyoueither* i beleive it may be possible to begin discussing joint actions if that came to pass
[16:11] *notyoueither* the reason for avoiding the naps, mz, is exactly to avoid that which you do not want
[16:11] *notyoueither* how would rp react to news of us with an nap with you?
[16:12] *MasterZen* ?
[16:12] *MasterZen* the nap does not have to be made public
[16:12] *notyoueither* these things have a way of coming out
[16:12] *MasterZen* in fact, making it public would defeat the whole purpose of it...
[16:12] *MasterZen* not from our side it won't come out...
[16:12] *MasterZen* we're the ones who gain more from it, we wouldn't screw it that way
[16:12] *notyoueither* may i ask, is gow contemplating begining hostilities?
[16:13] *notyoueither* mz, you would be surprised what we have learned through unofficial channels
[16:14] *MasterZen* all options are on the table as to avoid us getting caught with our pants down
[16:14] *MasterZen* hopefully us getting Chivalry will be a "warning" for the other two not to mess with us... we'll see what happens
[16:14] *MasterZen* unofficial?
[16:14] *notyoueither* not through ambassadors.
[16:15] *MasterZen* ah
[16:15] *MasterZen* unofficially we're planning to invade Lego
[16:15] *notyoueither* people are citizens, but may have interests other than those of the leaders of their states
[16:16] *notyoueither* freinds say things to each other, and so on.
[16:16] *MasterZen* well, that sounds like treason to me...
[16:17] *MasterZen* I have a good friend from CDG and I ain't telling him stuff about our ISDG team...
[16:17] *notyoueither* usually, it is slips
[16:17] *notyoueither* that is a good policy
[16:18] *MasterZen* hell, I even have a good friend who isn't on any PTWDG team ask to see the map and I was like HELL no!
[16:18] *zeit* hmm.. isn't is too much?
[16:18] *MasterZen* actually I was hoping the secrecy would lure him to join a team...
[16:19] *zeit* and...
[16:19] *zeit* ?
[16:19] *MasterZen* he hasn't...
[16:20] *zeit* well guys, you have fun, my sis is nagging me to give her the comp... see you later
[16:20] *zeit* bye]
[16:20] *MasterZen* cya Zeit
[16:20] * zeit has quit IRC (Quit: )
[16:20] *notyoueither* bye
[16:21] *MasterZen* c'est la vie dans le PTWDG...
[16:21] *notyoueither* mz, under what circumstances do you fear action by gs against gow?
[16:21] *MasterZen* I already told you the three possibilities facing the Bobians:
[16:22] *MasterZen* GoW vs ND-RP, GoW-ND vs RP, GoW-RP vs ND
[16:22] *notyoueither* i'm trying to see if i can find a way to present your case to gs in such a way as we would make an exception to our nap policy
[16:22] *MasterZen* under any of the two last ones I see the possibility of GS intervening to maintain a "balance of power" should RP or ND be in the brink of defeat
[16:23] *notyoueither* i see. so you really have no idea how things are going to go down.
[16:23] *notyoueither* just assumptions that something is gonna happen
[16:24] *MasterZen* we might have a "bobian" conference in a few turns... try and gauge the other teams
[16:25] *notyoueither* hmmm
[16:25] *MasterZen* we know RP is a little paranoid too... what I find suspicious is that they really haven't approached us as of late...
[16:26] *notyoueither* that is curious
[16:26] *MasterZen* especially since, personally, I think part of their paranoia is towards your team
[16:27] *notyoueither* would a signed agreement that we would not start a war with you, and we would not join a war started against you help?
[16:27] *notyoueither* with the same reciprocated?
[16:27] *MasterZen* that would be highly valued by our team
[16:28] *notyoueither* i can see if we could make that fly.
[16:28] *MasterZen* we would really appreciate it
[16:28] *notyoueither* i can understand the difficulties of the map from your pov
[16:29] *notyoueither* any thing that involves nd against you would be very bad
[16:29] *MasterZen* VERY bad
[16:29] *MasterZen* although should RP join in against them perhaps there's hope...
[16:30] *MasterZen* although there's always the possibility of ND doing a Schlieffen... striking at the weak one then turning on the strong one
[16:30] *notyoueither* that would be bad for them, but you would still bear the brunt of thsoe cheap ansars
[16:30] *MasterZen* yeah, ansars are a real pain...
[16:31] *notyoueither* i know. i am arab in an mp game at the moment
[16:31] *MasterZen* there is another possiblity though.. that ND might ask us to join them against RP then get at us afterwards...
[16:31] *notyoueither* fast, and cheap
[16:31] *MasterZen* that way, our Golden Age is spent against RP and then they get cheap ansars vs our expensive Riders...
[16:32] *notyoueither* but then, you would have a ga to build up
[16:32] *MasterZen* well, in the end there's a lot of possible scenarios
[16:32] *MasterZen* well so would they
[16:32] *notyoueither* and no doubt have many riders
[16:32] *MasterZen* this might seem ironic coming from the Glory of WAR.. but most of us fancy a peaceful GA..
[16:33] *notyoueither* lol
[16:33] *notyoueither* i have to go shortly
[16:33] *MasterZen* np
[16:33] *MasterZen* I hope we can chat later on though, with more of our teammates present
[16:34] *notyoueither* i will post logs, and gs can discuss a specified nap.
[16:34] *MasterZen* that would be great
[16:34] *notyoueither* that would be good.
[16:34] *MasterZen* I'll see if UnO gets back to me about the deal so we can officially sign it
[16:34] *notyoueither* we would very much appreciate that, except we see it as signed, just pending delivery
[16:35] *notyoueither* it was that deal we sold you feud under
[16:35] *MasterZen* yes, I understand, its just that since he was negotiating stuff with zeit and Shiber that we all got a bit mixed up
[16:36] *notyoueither* that was very confusing. they should not have pressed alternate payments like that.
[16:36] *MasterZen* yes, I agree
[16:36] *notyoueither* ok. i go now.
[16:36] *MasterZen* cya
[16:36] *notyoueither* bye
Session Close: Tue Jul 01 16:37:00 2003
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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relieving news:
quote:
zeit,
My apologies on the confusion from last week, my mind was surely not fully on this game as I was best man at a friends wedding and had both my dog and my wifes grandmother pass away.
To explain what happened a bit, I had created a thread specifically for our trade discussion, and was checking it constantly. However, for some reason, the discussion had moved back to the main diplomacy thread for your team without my knowledge due to my relative lack of participation. As a result, I never learned that your team had agreed to the 10 turn no trade clause, and I was acting on an alternate plan to get those 10 turns (ie, seeing if you would wait).
This is all a mistake on my part, and I am copying this into my own teams forum as well. Please express my apologies to GS for the confusion that I created, and we look forward to completing the deal as outlined: Chiv for 200 and 10 turns no-trade, lux for lux.
Back to the chat. 2200 GMT could work for me as a start time, but only for the next two weeks. 10:00 GMT would be a better start time for me personally, and I believe Hot_Enamel is normally online around that time as well, though I think the rest of the team would likely be absent from that time. Still, for what little needs to really be done in this chat, it would work fine. This is really more of a friendly chat than the working of isues AFAIK. If 10:00 GMT works for you, what day would be best?
Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx |
My reply:
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx,
Glad to see you're back in business
Its good to see that the issue has been settled, The firrst shipment of Furs is already in route, just reply with your Wines and its settled.
We also sent you our WM, according to the WM-WM trade agreement.
About for Chivalry- Timing is also an issue. If I understand correctly now, it seems there is no problem for you to deliver the tech at the turn you finish the research, right?
As for a time to chat- 10:00 GMT is good for me, just not tommorow (July 3rd) and next Sunday (6th)- other than those, any day is okay (hey, that rhymes! ), so just tell me, and I'll be there!
Cordially,
Zeit. |
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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Ratifying the deal: quote:
zeit,
We will send along Chivalry next time the save graces our presence. I look forward to seeing the map so I can finish up the next piece of my story as well.
Well, Friday the 4th is a holiday here in the states, which makes it look like Saturday the 5th is our best bet. That work for you?
UnOrthOdOx
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UnOrthOdOx,
Saturday 10:00GMT sounds great, I'll be there!
Thanks for ratifying the agreement, and once again, accept my apologies for the ongoing misunderstandment.
One more thing, about the Luxury deal- I havn't mentioned it before, as I wasn't sure how our team sees it, but now it seems we have the official policy: Luxury deals are basically indefinite, and can be cancelled at any time, without any consequences for either party. However, the party choosing to end the deal must give at least 2 turns of warning before he does so (most likely by a technical declaration of war), to give the other party adequate time to adjust their plans accordingly.
I hope you have no problem with this policy- after all, there's no reason why we have to limit ourselves to 20 turn deal as a result of the game mechanics (which I'm puzzeled at why they have to be so constrictive ).
Cordially,
Zeit.[/quote]
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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From UnO:
quote:
zeit,
Sorry for my tardiness in getting this to you this time, it is a holiday here in the States, and I am now President in the SPDG as well. Just a warning, that may take some time, and I may need to appoint an assistant for you guys. Ill let you know if that becomes the case.
Anyway, GoW would like to discuss the following:
NYE mentioned in a recent chat with MZ that you guys had obtained some informal information. We were wondering if you intended to share this information with us or not, and if not, we wondered if we could know from where it came. Expecially if there is a GoW member, active or not, giving out information, we feel it is in the best interest of the game that it not continue. If, however, someone just slipped somewhere, we understand.
We are curious about the research path that GS is taking. We would like to coordinate research to work towards a future trade.
And finally,
NYE mentioned he was re-wording the Non Agression and that GS may approve it, just want an update on how this is proceeding.
Look forward to seeing you.
UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador to Gathering Storm |
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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Chat log, part 1:
quote:
* Retrieving #GoW_CoFA info...
* zeit sets mode: +k pitabread
*MasterZen* what are we going to do tonight brain?
*hot_enamel* Hi all ... beautiful 8.10pm here !!!
*zeit* we have an improvised agenda
*MasterZen* well, I'll let UnO and you guys handle this
*UnOrthOdOx* wait a sec MZ. I need you on one item.
*MasterZen* oh don't worry, I'm here, ain't going away
*UnOrthOdOx* looking for my agenda, one sec.
*MasterZen* my eyelids don't weigh like bricks yet...
*notyoueither* mine do
*zeit* I think we'll start with Lux-lux deals, there's something we should straighten up
*MasterZen* go ahead
*UnOrthOdOx* OK.
*zeit* to be exact, cancelation policy
*zeit* we don't see those as implicit NAPs
*zeit* as these can be negotiated seperately
*MasterZen* ?
*zeit* therefor, they can be cancelled at any time
*zeit* with a one turn notice
*zeit* to avoid unhappiness issues
*UnOrthOdOx* I haven't responded with the wording you asked for yet, MZ, FYI
*hot_enamel* Why would anyone want to cancel it ?
*zeit* its just that lux-lux deals (or lux-resource deals)
*zeit* for any reason whatsoever- closing another deal e.g
*zeit* with limited luxuries...
*Shiber* hot_enamel, if one gets a promise for a better deal from another civ
*MasterZen* you know that's not really how everyone's been doing deals so far...
*Shiber* Or if one gets paid to cancel the deal
*zeit* yeah, but does a lux deal necessarily mean 20 turns NAP?
*Shiber* MasterZen, according to our conception, lux-lux deals are basically turn-by-turn exchanges.
*hot_enamel* Hmmm .. not very honorable
*MasterZen* not if in the contract it says 20 turns
*zeit* sure
*UnOrthOdOx* ok. I guess I can just respond here instead of through PM, ok?
*Shiber* MasterZen, that's why we're not signing a 20 turns contract.
*MasterZen* then what are you signing?
*zeit* UnO, of course
*Shiber* We find that the game mechanics are limiting and quite inappropriate.
*MasterZen* btw, have you traded luxes before?
*zeit* no
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ and HE seem a tad grumpy...
*Shiber* They don't let you set the number of turns that the deal can go on.
*MasterZen* 20 has always worked for us
*UnOrthOdOx* GoW appreciates that you have given us your official policy on the trading of luxuries.
*UnOrthOdOx* However.
*hot_enamel* after this 20 turns .. we can do it the GS way
*Shiber* Anyway MasterZen, if a deal was, say, 20 turns of Lux for a tech, then we'd have to honor it for 20 turns because it is not a turn-by-turn exchange.
*Shiber* But in the case of lux-for-lux, when a deal is cancelled, both parties lose equal benefits.
*UnOrthOdOx* We feel that deals are deals, and deals have limits. Since no length was discussed, we were considering this the Civ III standard of 20 turns, to be renegotiated at the end.
*UnOrthOdOx* Nothing is to say that renegotiation needs be difficult, either.
*Shiber* UnOrthOdOx, if that is the case then we'll have to cancel the deal with a technical state of war the next turn, because we're not proceeding with something that we haven't signed on.
*hot_enamel* As per every other Lux deal we have !
*MasterZen* and everyone else has done too
*Shiber* UnOrthOdOx, I have spoken to one member of your team (I think it was MZ) some time ago,
*UnOrthOdOx* can I finish, Shiber, MZ, HE?
*MasterZen* I don't think you're going to get many lux deals with that policy, the uncertainty is too high
*notyoueither* we acknowledge your position.
*MasterZen* go ahead
*hot_enamel* Go for it Uno
*hot_enamel* Grumpy #1 & Grumpy #2 will remain quiet
*UnOrthOdOx* As far as GoW is concerned, We will not break it for 20 turns, and will seek renegotiation at turn 20. We understand, though, that GS may seek to cancel it earlier through a declaration of war.
*UnOrthOdOx* We may not be happy about that if/when it happens, but we promise not to publicly cry foul.
*zeit* because of the Lux-lux nature of deal (not to cry foul)?
*UnOrthOdOx* claim you violated.
*Shiber* I had a chat with MZ the other day. He asked me whether lux-for-lux deals are considered as informal NAPs by GS, and I said that I'm not entirely sure and we should discuss this. Then you sign a lux-for-lux deal with us and assume that it's an informal NAP.
*UnOrthOdOx* We assumed nothing.
*Shiber* Of course, if your stand is that you will not consider it a violation if we cancelled the deal prior to its end (by your standards) with a 1 turn notice, then it's ok.
*UnOrthOdOx* I thought that it might.
*Shiber* Although I would most like the situation if this was a deal with equal conditions.
*Shiber* Well, IMHO you should have asked, since we have never conducted lux deals with GoW.
*MasterZen* for the record, I've treated a NAP as an entirely different thing
*notyoueither* Shiber, UnO has already acknowledged our point.
*UnOrthOdOx* We asked, were told it was not, this cancelation thing is new since it was signed. We figured it was for 20 turns.
*zeit* okay, so you don't see the deal as an implicit NAP, just that it is for 20 turns
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*hot_enamel* Why should we think GS would treat a lux deal differentl to any other teamm
*zeit* and a 1-turn notice prior to cancelation is okay,
*zeit* and no side will cry foul shoudl this happen
*zeit* right?
*hot_enamel* When GS declares war on GoW... we could not care less about a broken Lux deal
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|BRB
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*zeit* very well then, I think its settled then
*notyoueither* he, why ever would we DoW GoW?
*UnOrthOdOx* I think HE needs a few beers.
*UnOrthOdOx* and MZ few hours of sleep.
*MasterZen* something like that :P
*hot_enamel* Off to go get the burbon ... brb
*notyoueither* me too!
*notyoueither* xpost
*MasterZen* screw that, I'm getting the rum, anybody want some?
*zeit* perhaps a fleet of GoW galleys would pop near our coast next turn, who knows,
*MasterZen* um... yeah
*MasterZen* my question is why would you guys want to break a lux deal for 20 turns...
*zeit* we certainly wouldn't
*MasterZen* or perhaps I'm not getting this right, will this be an "eternal" lux deal until one side chooses to break it?
*zeit* our only concern was it might be seen as a NAP
*notyoueither* mz, the difficulty comes in when other civs may see a lux deal as a 20 turn nap.
*zeit* that's right MZ
*MasterZen* I doubt they'd see it that way
*zeit* in fact, we have seen it as indefinite
*notyoueither* so do i, but concerns have been raised
*zeit* cancelabe at a 1-turn notice
*zeit* without any implications
*MasterZen* this is wierd... I honestly don't know what to think of it
*UnOrthOdOx* mmm coffee.
*zeit* so the differences don't seem so big as we've thought
*MasterZen* mmm I need some
*notyoueither* hmm... bed
*MasterZen* mmm rum
*zeit* you just see it as seperate 20-turn deals, right?
*hot_enamel* mmmm .....burbon
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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Part 2:
quote:
*MasterZen* yep, but look at it this way:
*zeit* oh, man, I'm chatting with a bunch of sleep-deprived people
*UnOrthOdOx* Or we have no problem agreeing to 30, 40 or whatever if specifically stated.
*notyoueither* you set the time, buddy.
*MasterZen* a 20 turn lux deal does not mean a nap. Should for any reason god-forbid GoW-GS would be at war, then the whole thing is off. Period. No one will go crying that the other broke a lux deal
*zeit* hmmm, nap
*zeit* right, agreed
*MasterZen* now, a NAP is an entirely different thing...
*hot_enamel* Hoo Ray
*notyoueither* anyways, zeit is awake, so i will say g'night
*MasterZen* pass me some bourbon H_E...
*zeit* of course, this is also on the agenda
*MasterZen* ok, gnight
*hot_enamel* But .. GS want to cancel it in 1 turn, if they get a better offer ..
* notyoueither has left #GoW_COFA
*UnOrthOdOx* Or paid to stop.
*MasterZen* now, please, what better offer can you get, it's a straight 1-1 deal?
*hot_enamel* Thats what shits me !
*zeit* I think we're fine with the lux thing
*UnOrthOdOx* HE, MZ, they are in the end mercenaries too.
*MasterZen* aren't we all?
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* I didn't say we want to, just that for whatever reason we could cancel without implications
*MasterZen* but what I'm getting at is that no-one really cares about lux deals once a war breaks out
* Shiber|BRB is now known as Shiber
*zeit* not whatever, okay, but that it doesn't count as NAP, on which you agree
*MasterZen* so, if you are not planning to go to war with us, then what's the problem? 20 turns simple as that.
*zeit* so I think that's settled
*MasterZen* no, it's not a NAP
*zeit* 20 turns is okay
*MasterZen* then we settle on 20 turns?
*hot_enamel* Hoo Ray
*zeit* renegotiable, of course
*MasterZen* of course
*MasterZen* no hard feelings if you choose not to
*zeit* than that's fine
*zeit* then
*MasterZen* seriously, eh! if you get a better offer good, just respect teh 20 turns
*UnOrthOdOx* zeit, see what I deal with?
*zeit* very well, NEXT!
*hot_enamel* Phew .. That burbon did the trick :b
*MasterZen* I'm still waiting H_E... :P
*zeit* its okay, nothing like a heated debate to get things moving...
*UnOrthOdOx* Ok.
*MasterZen* so, what's next in the agenda? Peacekeeping in Liberia?
*MasterZen* oh wait, that's RL...
*zeit* and i figured this would be the easiest part
*zeit* hold on, i'll check
*MasterZen* Don't worry, I'm always like this :P
*UnOrthOdOx* this informal information.
*MasterZen* UnO better bring some duct tape next time
*zeit* yes, it seems you were worried about some mole perhaps
*zeit* well fear none
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ, you know more about the whole thing...can you play nice?
*zeit* NYE was refering to casual talks, not some leak or anything,
*MasterZen* the duct tape would have been for me
*MasterZen* i.e. shutting me up
*hot_enamel* I brought that up
*zeit* i got it
*UnOrthOdOx* The way it was presented, we thought you guys were wanting to share said information but the chat diverged from that course. Is that the case?
*zeit* I don't think so
*zeit* we're already sharing, don't we?
*hot_enamel* I was worried we had a non-active member ratting us out .. Thats just not in the spirit of the game
*UnOrthOdOx* we have plenty of non-actives.
*MasterZen* like 4/5 of the team :P
*hot_enamel* 6/7
*zeit* nothing to worry about, there's no such thing, and we would have never thought of using one anyway
*zeit* it is not in the spirit of the game, as you said
*MasterZen* it's not you trying to... it's him doing it voluntarily which scares us
*UnOrthOdOx* Since we agree that is not in the spirit, would you tell us?
*zeit* don't worry about it, we havn't run into one
*UnOrthOdOx* I know there are teams that would welcome such a thing.
*MasterZen* but has he run into you?
*zeit* MZ- no
*hot_enamel* Move on .. next
*UnOrthOdOx* Research.
*zeit* yes, a worthy subject
*zeit* go on
*UnOrthOdOx* What are you guys researching, can we arrange a trade, etc, so on,
*zeit* currently, we're not researching, but we plan to research Economy
*zeit* than banking
*MasterZen* economy? that's a little far away...
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ...what did we decide as well.
*UnOrthOdOx* ****, we're not researching either....we all letting Lego plug away at it?
*zeit* at what?
*UnOrthOdOx* I mean, with our two teams not researching, Lego will be selling.
*UnOrthOdOx* Likely
*UnOrthOdOx* not my personal top pick of where to spend money.
*zeit* so don't we split?
*hot_enamel* It's going to be tough invading lego ... It's going to need a multi team effort
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* research costs, or something
*zeit* of course
*hot_enamel* Oh .. you were talking research ... my bad
*MasterZen* hahahaha... that bourbon's getting to ya
*UnOrthOdOx* Make sure they only sell ONCE...yes, that can be arranged with us.
*UnOrthOdOx* Hopefully the others as well.
*zeit* perhaps we could do the research, and GoW will participate in the costs
*UnOrthOdOx* I believe we will start up again once outstanding contracts are fulfilled.
*zeit* start research, right?
*MasterZen* we are still undecided over Space Flight or Synthitic Fibers...
*UnOrthOdOx* yes. We already have agreements for anything we could currently research.
*zeit* okay, so it maybe we can work something out for the future
*UnOrthOdOx* sure. Any idea which path you will go?
*UnOrthOdOx* we could do the opposite.
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|Lunch
*Shiber|Lunch*
*zeit* banking
*zeit* and then economy
*hot_enamel* GS going for democracy ?
*hot_enamel* Or Lego ?
*zeit* we don't know,
*UnOrthOdOx* Why not? with the damn removal of WW
*UnOrthOdOx* basically
*zeit* for the government, sure
*MasterZen* that would be good... we suspect Lego is going for Music Theory and RP for Printing Press
*zeit* but perhaps we'll research econ. head on
*hot_enamel* GoW/RP/ND can stick with the bottom tech tree
*zeit* I think we would appreciate trading for democracy
*MasterZen* we can go invention
*zeit* also true...
*zeit* do you have solid plans yet- as i said, we're pretty much set on banking and economics
*hot_enamel* Invention sounds like the most likely option
*zeit* won't you be duplicating anyone?
*MasterZen* not that we know of
*UnOrthOdOx* WOULD have been Vox...but that is not a problem anymore.
*UnOrthOdOx* thank you.
*zeit* yeah, but beware of the power of 40 turns research, in the hands of the biggest civ around
*zeit* but, perhaps they could be useful for us as well
*UnOrthOdOx* ok, shall we proceed?
*zeit* very well
*UnOrthOdOx* the 'difficult' part?
*UnOrthOdOx* NAP.
*zeit* sure...
*UnOrthOdOx* NYE was going to re-word it.
*UnOrthOdOx* where are we.
*zeit* it is still being discussed
*zeit* i can only say it is still a suggestion, but i'll say this:
*zeit* we are trying to find a formula that would allow us both to intervene should this be necessary,
*zeit* i'm looking for appropriate words, hold on please
*zeit* but that would increase each team's security
*hot_enamel* Zeit ... you should just tell us what would GS's responsebe if there was war on Bob
*zeit* something like: we won't join an alliance against you, nor start a war of agression against you
*UnOrthOdOx* There are those that are getting the feeling with the lux deal cancellation clause, the failure of the NAP, the specific wording NYE used...that you are looking for ways around things to attack us.
*UnOrthOdOx* Loopholes if you will.
*zeit* not the case
*hot_enamel* Exactly Uno ..
*zeit* i thought you would, and that's why i'm choosing my words carefuly
*UnOrthOdOx* "war of aggression" is all in the POV...
*UnOrthOdOx* for instance.
*zeit* we just fear a 2 v 1 war on Bob that would create a superpower on Bob
*hot_enamel* A 2 nation bob is NOT a superpower
*hot_enamel* Lego & GS are the superpowers
*zeit* it might turn into 1 nation soon thereafter
*hot_enamel* Its not a 1 nation yet
*zeit* RP also has the potential
*MasterZen* actually it might turn into 2 battered ones
*hot_enamel* Everything GS has said, has indicated they want to get involved if a war breaks out in Bob
*zeit* we have no plans whatsoever to attack GoW
*zeit* we keep this option to ourselves, HE, right
*zeit* i think it is legitimate
*zeit* after all, we're at least half bobians now
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* and once astronomy comes along- even more
*zeit* we're not looking for an opening to attack GoW, not at all
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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part 3:
quote:
*hot_enamel* We are the weakest nation .. and therefore your easiest target
*hot_enamel* And easy to invade
*MasterZen* let's cut the crap:
*zeit* but the weakest nation is definitely not a target, if you want to maintian stability, right?
*MasterZen* what would you do if we and RP allied against ND?
*MasterZen* what would you do if we and ND allied against RP?
*hot_enamel* But easier if you want a foothold on Bob
*MasterZen* what would you do if ND and RP allied against us?
*zeit* I honestly (really) don't know what we might do in the two upper options
*zeit* but we'll probably intervene on your behalf on the third
*zeit* but please, don't take my word for it
*MasterZen* of course not, but what would be the compelling evidence in either of the top two cases to intervene?
*MasterZen* would RP be too powerful in case #1? would ND in case #2? you know geography in both cases works against us..
*hot_enamel* A 2 nation bob still means no superpowers
*zeit* of course, that's why you are not a likely target at all,
*MasterZen* this is what I have been proposing to nye in the other chats I've had with them:
*MasterZen* please listen:
*hot_enamel* I need more ice anyway
*MasterZen* we all know who's going to win ceteris paribus (if everything remains the same): Lego
*MasterZen* we all know that after steam power Lego will be invincible, especially since they are industrial and will probably switch to democracy to build those RRs quick
*MasterZen* once that happens, NO ONE will be able to take them on, not even a combination of us
*zeit* very true
*MasterZen* so, this game will be won from here to Steam Power
*MasterZen* no one civ can take on Lego alone
*zeit* at least "not won" for lego...
*UnOrthOdOx* The I doubt 2 could...
*MasterZen* yep
*zeit* with careful planning, I think 2 could.
*MasterZen* now, if we were to hatch a long term plan against Lego
*MasterZen* i.e. to attack them before RR... that would work
*MasterZen* well, perhaps, but it's safer than after RR
*zeit* mutual interest will keep us both from fighting against eachother
*MasterZen* thus, like it or not, our destinies are intertwined...
*zeit*
*MasterZen* now, being no-bs here, each of us wants to win..
*zeit* mostly to have fun, but that as well
*MasterZen* what happens after Lego is a whole new story here, and I'm not going to dwell on it
*zeit* I don't think we were thinking of anhilating them
*MasterZen* but in the meantime, this is the only change WE (GoW or GS) get to win
*MasterZen* no, just making them not able to win
*zeit* just cripple
*MasterZen* however, the issue here is Bob
*zeit* of course, that's the powderkeg
*zeit* you're planning on dominating Bob?
*MasterZen* that will be quite difficult
*MasterZen* at least speaking in today's terms
*zeit* or just keep it stable until we muster a force against lego
*MasterZen* but...
*MasterZen* that is not to say the others don't have intentions either
*MasterZen* so, we as GoW have two options:
*MasterZen* we don't do anything, hope we all be nice bla bla bla ally with all Bobians and GS against Lego
*hot_enamel* A 3 nation Bob will not commit to Lego... each of us would be afraid the other will take the opportunity to attack
*MasterZen* exactly
*MasterZen* and if for some miraculous reason we do, we'll kick our ass afterwards anyway (and in effect give the game to you guys )
*zeit* oon the phone
*MasterZen* so, SOMETHING will happen
*MasterZen* I don't think we're the only ones who realize this
*MasterZen* if we do, then the ND and RP are really damn stupid
*MasterZen* but I doubt it
*MasterZen* now, to tell you the truth, we are not a reactive team
*zeit* more proactive- yes, despite being "mercenary"
*MasterZen* we WILL try and do something if we see the opportunity to do so. We also HOPE that we don't have to though
*UnOrthOdOx* CAN be bought and WILL be bought are entirely different...
*MasterZen* so true...
*zeit* we are worried about RP in bob, but mostly Lego
*MasterZen* so, as I've told nye, options 1 and 2 are, and have always been on the table (alliances with the other Bobians against another Bobian)
*zeit* true, but what if RP makes you do the fighting, and than walks over you and ND?
*MasterZen* we don't know who, we don't know when, and we don't know if, but it's a possibility that exists. We will not be caught with our pants down if ND and RP take a hit at us
*UnOrthOdOx* We can be bought, but will not be pawns. That is a good assessment.
*MasterZen* now this is where GS comes in
*MasterZen* everything we do, despite how well we are starting to get along, is in function of a probable GS response
*MasterZen* should we ally with ND against RP? Does GS hate RP enough that they'll just watch on the sidelines while we take them on?
*MasterZen* should we ally with RP against ND? Will GS intervene against any one of us in this case?
*MasterZen* see? those are the questions we ask ourselves every day...
*zeit* I don't know, intervening doesn't mean we'll be helping RP...
*zeit* so are we, it worries us too- being a target of 3 bobians could become a reality
*MasterZen* to put it bluntly, should options 1 or 2 happen, which would you prefer?
*MasterZen* us allying with ND or RP?
*MasterZen* obviously option 3 is our worst nightmare
*zeit* I believe that with ND, for RP is the largest, but i'm a mere diplomat...
* Shiber|Lunch has quit IRC (Quit: Must leave, sorry )
*zeit* personally, I don't see any option in which we intervene against you
*zeit* but i have to back the team's policy, which is still against explicit NAPs...
*MasterZen* I would hope your team shares that PoV
*MasterZen* btw, NAPs don't have to be public...
*UnOrthOdOx* unless that is some GS code of honor
*zeit* sure, but they have a way to become, without any malicious intention on either side
*MasterZen* frankly I don't find it dishonorable to have deals not made public
*zeit* neither do we
*UnOrthOdOx* me either, just saying...
*zeit* Like i said, we understand your fears, and share some of them, especially lego's becoming a floating fortress
*zeit* and like i said, i believe common interests will keep us from fighting eachother
*zeit* we can't commit to a full NAP yet, but we're working on a formula that might please us both
*MasterZen* honestly I find it much easier to imagine a 2-bobian alliance with you against Lego
*UnOrthOdOx* Can you tell us? and have you discussed this with other bobians?
*zeit* discussed what exactly? alliance against lego?
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*zeit* hell no, and we'll keep it that way for now
*zeit* too premature to have it talked about
*zeit* but since you brought it up...
*zeit* have you?
*UnOrthOdOx* Not yet, wondering the best way to do it.
*UnOrthOdOx* and best timing.
*MasterZen* we fear this might lead to plans of backstabbing by the others...
*UnOrthOdOx* especially the king...
*MasterZen* we'd much rather ally with you first, that would dissaude any other Bobian from getting ideas
*zeit* understandable- this has to be coordinated
*UnOrthOdOx* ND is hard to predict as well.
*zeit* or perhaps make them develop ideas of attacking us both?
*zeit* before we swallow them
*MasterZen* if there's only 1 bobian remaining there's no chance of that
*UnOrthOdOx* there is no way there can be 1 bobian before the RR, making Lego defacto victors...
*zeit* this could be kept in secret so that your foe will have little time to organize for an attack
*MasterZen* should war break out on Bob, the 2 victors would have sizeable armies
*MasterZen* like you did against Vox
*zeit* but what if there will be no war?
*MasterZen* assuming you don't disband your army and we don't either, that's A LOT of firepower
*zeit* the idea of a combined attack, against lego, as well as some protection pact is interesting, GS will have to further discuss that
*MasterZen* I really hope you do
*zeit* before i could tell you anything concrete
*zeit* we surely will, we certainly see lego as favorite
*MasterZen* I just want to say one final thing (on my behalf because I've been hogging this part way too long now)
*MasterZen* what we've said is the whole no-bullshit truth
*zeit* I appreciate that
*MasterZen* we are in a very interesting position and we'd like to take advantage from it before others do
*MasterZen* we also want to win the game just like you
*MasterZen* however, we honestly feel that at least until the Lego issue is solved, our destinies are best shared
*zeit* good to hear that, i'm sure this will affect our future decisions
*zeit* but sadly (really), i can't commit to anything now, but that may change
*MasterZen* don't worry we understand
*zeit* well then, with this optimistic spirit, i'll have to say goodbye- duty calls (exam studies)
*MasterZen* all we ask is that you bring this back to your team
*zeit* of course
*MasterZen* and that hopefully we can get answers soon
*zeit* i hope so
*MasterZen* on our behalf we can assure you that whatever happens on bob which involves us, we'll let you know
*zeit* i've had a wonderful time, thanks everyone for coming
*zeit* thanks
*UnOrthOdOx* Anything else you had, zeit?
*hot_enamel* Cya
*zeit* not really...
*zeit* i really have to go, though
*MasterZen* that's it, I'm having breakfast know...
*MasterZen* cya zeit
*zeit* bon apetit
*UnOrthOdOx* great. I gotta thank you for being no BS with us
*hot_enamel* BUOURBONNn!!!!!!!!!!!
* Disconnected
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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To UnO:
quote:
Dear UnOrthOdOx,
I'm not sure whether Shiber approved your Trappings installment, but it's okay- our map will be known throughout the world soon anyway. I'm sad to see you leave so soon- but such is the fate of the envoy, to be the governments' vagabond
Other than that, there are those (rather large ) leftovers from the chat. Rest assured, they are being discussed by the team, but these issues take time- as I'm sure your decision to bring up those suggestions in the chat wasn't made in one day.
Like yours, right now we are concerned of the developments on Bob, as well as how the post-war Bob shapes up. As I said, the GS realizes the potential Lego has if left alone, but the situation on Bob as it is leaves you little options right now, besides preparing yourself so you won't "be caught with your pants down" like you said. I believe common interests, coupled with trust, would ensure our teams' cooperation, but much still needs to be discussed.
Therefor, I would like to have another chat scheduled, in some time that would be comfortable for our both teams' members- like the one before the last one. Since the last chat was held on rather uncomfortable time for you, as well as for most of my team members, perhaps the next could be arranged around 0300 GMT?
Cordially,
Zeit.
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His reply (quick one):
quote:
zeit,
Thank you for getting back to me. I have been anxiously awaiting word on Trappings due to the fact that I have been in a writting mood and have several more ready to go. As for being a short stay, it was actually quite long as far as Trappings is concerned. The longest to date, anyway.
As you say, I feel both our teams are really working towards the same end, and that will keep us cooperating. At least until Lego is no longer an issue, that is . We both would like to win after that, and such things would be expected.
The 10:00 time was perfectly fine with me personally, and HE...just no with the rest of the team too much. 03:00 is certainly doable as well. Given that I am now President over in the SPDG, I must coordinate with that as well. I have a meeting scheduled for Monday at 03:00 (pending a vote) so the best times for me would seem to be Saturday 0300 or Teusday 0300. Sunday 03:00 would be possible, but I am setting aside that evening for my family, I am sure you all understand.
I look forward to seeing you in chat, and to working together for some time to come.
UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador of the Glory of War team. |
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OPD
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Birmingham UK
Jun 2002
time: 05:26
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Copied from the other thread, now that I can see the contact log. The PM's aren't that important just stuff regarding trappings of war.
UnOrthOdOx> Hey
UnOrthOdOx> You there?
opd> lo
opd> pbeming
UnOrthOdOx> Have you guys been discussing Trappings XIX at all?
UnOrthOdOx> GS, I mean
opd> hmmmn don't know
opd> what is trappings again?
UnOrthOdOx> Oh well.
UnOrthOdOx> My story: The Trappings of War
opd> I haven't
UnOrthOdOx> XIX I mentioned the lux and map trades, was wanting to know if you guys wanted them kept secret, Shiber was supposed to post about it...
UnOrthOdOx> In your forums
opd> will check now
opd> there is alot of activity regarding GoW diplomacy atm
opd> I am not up with it at all
UnOrthOdOx> I am
opd> as mainly concentrate on RP diplomacy
UnOrthOdOx> Im your ambassador from GoW
opd> I can't confirm anything
opd> or tell you anything unless I'm mistaken
UnOrthOdOx> I just want to know it was brought up. this is not diplomacy at all, jut my pet project
opd> would you like me to post something in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> I have the next two sections written, just waiting for confirmation that XIX was OK or not so I can rewrite
that part out.
opd> oh ok
opd> I see
UnOrthOdOx> how are things with RP, anyway?
UnOrthOdOx> If you can say
opd> bigfree's cool
opd> good to work with
UnOrthOdOx> adaMada left, we've been kinda in limbo since. usually deal directly with Togas.
opd> no ambassador from RP?
UnOrthOdOx> Nope
UnOrthOdOx> I know MrWIA is theirs to ND, but no idea who they have for Vox or Lego
UnOrthOdOx> I think GK may have been to lego, now I think about it...
UnOrthOdOx> Gk was someones ambassador
opd> I thought togas would have all diplomacy sorted
opd> maybe they don't care too much about GoW,
UnOrthOdOx> Well, ada just disappeared...think that threw them off. Not sure if they have enough activity?
UnOrthOdOx> That's what we're afraid of...actually
opd> you guys going to war with anyone soon?
UnOrthOdOx> not until someone hires us
UnOrthOdOx> no offers yet
opd> ok can't find anything regarding trappings in relevant thread
opd> would you like me to post about it
UnOrthOdOx> Just preparing defence against a possible RP/ND alliance.
opd> would you like me to post something concerning this in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> If you would, just a kind reminder. I asked Shiber about it through PM yesterday.
opd> ok what would you like posted
UnOrthOdOx> I'll PM you in a minute.
UnOrthOdOx> gtg
opd> ok take care
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07-06-2003 05:54
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