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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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HotE's reply:
quote:
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm,
Yes, as you have noticed, we have finally come to an agreement with the Voxians.
It is a pity they did not heed our first warnings, and not create their city.
Our single horseman was not enough to convince them we were serious.
But on the next turn when a few more units turned up, as well as a ND swordsman, they quickly came back to the bargaining table.
I can not share with you the details of the agreement, however, I can tell you Vox was compensated for their city, and our allies ND & RP were informed. As you have noted, war would of only disadvantaged the participants, so a sensible agreement was reached.
Only ND will know if taking the city is upsets ND. 
As allies, they were also compensated for the Vox incursion.
I would also like to discuss with you some of the options we talked about before all this nonsense began.
1. A protection pact that would require GS to move upon Vox if they ever decided to invade our land again....especially if the GoW is drawn into a war within Bob. As I understand it, GS is not interested in seeking GoW help if Vox attacks GS. Therefore this pact would be one-way.
2. We are building harbors, in case we locate any iron on any small island, or get an agreement from a third civ as a back up supply. GS showed interest in being our Iron source backup.
3. GS offered their services as a loan shark ...ie, in the event of war, and we need to do a quick upgrade of horsemen to Riders, GS offered to loan money to the GoW.
4. It was mentioned that you were in a tech alliance/agreement with Vox. I got the feeling that this was ending at the end of the first age ??? Maybe not...but it was mentioned that GS would like to investigate a tech alliance/agreement with GoW during the next age ?
All of these things were brought up briefly, in either our correspondence, or during our chats. I would appreciate any additional comments, and if you could consider how each/all would be compensated or agreed to.
Many Thanks Zeit,
Lets continue to keep the communication lines open.
Regards
Hot_Enamel of the GoW
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and my short reply note
quote:
Hot_Enamel, respected consul of the Glory of War.
It is good to know the GoW is interested in increasing the bond between our teams. The several ideas that were raised were of course just ideas, and some of them will need plenty of work before they can be agreed upon, if at all. I wouldn't like to thoroughly comment on those before I bring them once more to the team's discussion, as to not create false impression- some of these issues are serious indeed.
I will comment on these issues, when i get some more feedback from the board.
Respectfully
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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To HotE:
quote:
Hot_Enamel
Respected consul of the Glory of War.
I'm sorry for the dealy on responding to you- but i did needed the time to review the ideas raised by our members. I hope your weekend went well- even the most hardworking diplomats need some rest.
The ideas of Iron trade were accepted with some enthusiasm. The GS would like to make this trade doable, but some prior investments are necessary: Building a harbor, a galley, and scouting a path, are all required, and might involve deviations from planned development programs for us. We were also interested in trading for Luxuary- as the game progresses happiness will undoubtedly become more of an issue. Therefor we were thinking of a trade in which we trade our Iron for your Luxuary, along with additional sum of gold that would compensate us for the deviation from our original plan, in building a harbor at this stage. I did not mention a time frame nor a specific details- just tell me what you think about it and can go further from that point.
As for lending you money for upgrades- we thought of several arrangements that would make this possible: tech for gpt instead of lump sum (we trade tech for gpt), or the classical lump sum for gpt. All are doable, but will depend on the situation when the loan is asked for.The interest rate will also take into consideration the amount of gold loaned and the duration of the downpayment. Whenever you feel like you need a loan, don't hesitate to ask for one (damn, i sound like a banker).
I have some more ideas, i'll write these tommorow.
I Hope all is going well in the Imperial City.
Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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To HotE:
quote:
Hot_Enamel,
I has initiated early stages of negotiation with GF regarding trading Feudalism to you: It seems according to our analysis that we will acquire this tech some time before you will. GF did say you were interested in such trade. I'll let him know of our price, but i'll continue opening the communication channel between us open. Our price for the tech is 200 gold in cash or 12 gpt over 20 turns, including a 7 turn non disclosure agreement- a period of time in which you are bound not to trade the tech onwards.
As for the loan- an arrangement of gpt for a tech would allow you to put your entire economy into gold income, and will let you keep the cash you currently have. If you're interested in a gold loan, tell me about the amount you're interested in, note that loaning you gold will require a certain period of time of preparation, and possibly in a delay on the ETA of feudalism, which is currently due in 8 turn, depending on the sum of gold loaned. The interest rates will vary- in peacetimes it will stand on 25% for 20 turns, and 35% in times of war.
About issues you have with Vox- In our private talks with Vox, our diplomats have discouraged the Voxian from setting foot on Bob, and explained to them probable consequences of such action, however, you should understand that Vox's territory is many times smaller than those of the Bobian nations, and that is where some of our members' comments on the board came from.
Hope to hear from you soon
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:26
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GoW's proposal:
quote:
So, Shiber. How about this proposal: 200 gold (GS determines what is GPT and what is upfront, no more than 100g upfront) + wines (with trade route) + 2gpt for Iron when needed for Feudalism in 2 turns + Iron (when needed) + sea RoP.
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It means that we get 200 gold (in cash, gpt, or whatever mix we want, but not more than 100 of it can be cash) and wines for Feudalism, and a sea RoP (explained in a second). Additionally, should GoW require iron, we would supply it to them for 2 gold per turn that we trade iron.
When asked to explain the sea RoP idea:
quote:
we are looking for islands with Iron. Also - we would get a trade route to give you wines and trade for Iron if we don't find an island.
*snip*
we would attempt, as much as possible, to keep our galley out of GS's cultural border.
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(they don't know yet that we already have a visible trade route with them, nor do they have to know - our harbor would probably not be ready until their galley reaches us and they get their own trade route)
Thoughts?
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:26
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#GoW, times are GMT+2:00.
quote:
Session Start: Thu Apr 10 00:00:00 2003
Session Ident: #gow
[00:00] Panzer32_: Of course, we will give you more than just a plain Feud deal.
[00:00] Panzer32_: We have some extra wines that we might be able to sell.
[00:01] Shiber: Panzer32_, if you have any official proposals to make, I suggest that you send me a diplomatic message that I could post in the private forum.
[00:01] Shiber: My teammates have all been very preoccupied with military issues today
[00:01] Shiber: Few could make time for diplomatic issues; my efforts are mostly in vain.
[00:01] -: *chanserv* info #gow
[00:01] -ChanServ- Channel #gow isn't registered.
[00:02] Panzer32_: I don't have a true official proposal. I'm just seeing what sort of deal you think would be OK, and then that will be official proposal
[00:02] Shiber: Okay, but I can only give you my own, personal thoughts.
[00:03] Ennet|around: hmmm im off
[00:03] Shiber: Cya ennet
[00:03] GhengisFarb: How long till you complete Feudalism?
[00:03] Ennet|around: need to catch some sleep going up early tomorrow
[00:04] Ennet|around: everyone be good!
[00:04] MasterZen: bye Ennet!
[00:04] Shiber: That depends. If we put research to the max, we can probably finish it within two turns from now.
[00:04] Shiber: But we probably won't be. We're saving up gold for upgrades.
[00:05] * Ennet|around has quit IRC (Quit: A.D300, After 5h of civ2 DonHomer: looks like civ2 could be a good way to kill time if i can get the hang of it :P)
[00:05] Panzer32_: lets have a starting deal of say: 20gpt + wines when we get a trade route + 2gpt when using iron for feudalism + sea ROP for our galley + backup source of Iron.
[00:06] Panzer32_: 20 gpt is so you can finish feudalism sooner.
[00:06] Shiber: gpt won't help us, it doesn't increase our science.
[00:07] Panzer32_: if the deal was to be later, then it would be reduced, say 16gpt or something.
[00:07] Shiber: Only added income from cities, or cash reserves to burn through, can increase our science.
[00:07] Panzer32_: how does it not? It allows you to set the slider to 100% sci
[00:08] Shiber: We can get Feudalism in 2 turns with science maxed out, but we want to turn off science for a few turns to save up cash for upgrades.
[00:08] Shiber: What we need to get Feudalism in 2 turns is cold, hard cash.
[00:08] Shiber: I understand if you can't provide cash,
[00:09] Shiber: *cash.
[00:10] Shiber: The deal you suggested sounds appealing though, but I'm not sure if we can still provide Feudalism within 2 turns. I'll have to ask our economists.
[00:10] Shiber: We'll probably have to postpone this by a turn.
[00:10] Panzer32_: just a minute... we may be able to provide the $ straight up... conversing with team...
[00:11] GhengisFarb: You are supposedly at war and yet you are not finished a tech that allows you to build Pikemen? They sounds kinda fishy.
[00:11] Shiber: GhengisFarb, it'd be many turns before Vox can reach our cities.
[00:11] Shiber: Their immortals would probably be countered on the way anyway. We may end up not needing pikes at all.
[00:12] GhengisFarb: But if you finished Feudalism then switched to 100% tax you could immediately use the money to upgrade to Pikemen
[00:12] GhengisFarb: Not to mention all the money you will make from selling Feudalism.
[00:13] Shiber: You could make an official proposal and send it, and I'd post it to my team's forum.
[00:13] Shiber: I can't assure you anything.
[00:14] Shiber: I can only say that I'd be in favor of such a plan.
[00:14] Shiber: GhengisFarb, as I explained, we're not betting on pikes.
[00:14] GhengisFarb: Everything you told us makes no sense, it is an illogical strategy and I find that unlikely from GS.
[00:14] Shiber: GhengisFarb, explain again what is illogical.
[00:15] GhengisFarb: You are on the verge of having a tech that is A MAJOR unit upgrade and instead you stop researching to fight a war with inferior units to your opponent.
[00:16] Shiber: We are basing our defense on mobile units.
[00:16] Shiber: Our best chances are to strike at immortals before they can reach us, because they weak point is defense.
[00:16] Shiber: Out in the open, that can only be done with WCs.
[00:16] Shiber: (or horsemen)
[00:17] GhengisFarb: How is fighting with warriors preferable to upgrading to Medieval Infatry and Pikemen? Horsemen aren't superior to Immortals and their maneuverablity will be useless in the jungle.
[00:18] Shiber: Med Inf. are slow. Pikemen will not be needed.
[00:19] Shiber: WCs are superior to immortals in open fields because they can strike before the immortals can, and they have 2 attack to match the 2 defense of immortals - but they are 1/3 less expensive than immortals.
[00:19] GhengisFarb: Med Inf are just as fast as Horsemen in the jungle which is where you will be fighting if you actually are trying to strike at the Immortals before they reach you.
[00:19] Shiber: GhengisFarb, have you got pictures of our terrain?
[00:20] Shiber: Your last statement is plain wrong, but in order to show you why, I'd have to give out information that my team might not want me to provide.
[00:20] GhengisFarb: Vox has repeatedly said that the are between your two civs is all jungle, your team used that as an excuse to not but Horseback Riding and we have a galley right next to you.
[00:21] Shiber: Then Vox have been lying. The jungle is several tiles thick.
[00:22] GhengisFarb: I am very leary of committing to a deal with GS as your strategy has the potential to get your team eliminated from the game before you finish researching Feudalism.
[00:22] Shiber: As for horseback riding, our reason not to buy it was that we have WCs, which are cheaper yet just as good (they can't move through the jungle, but we weren't planning an attack on Vox; at least, not one with horsemen)
[00:22] MasterZen: I have to go... farewell to all
[00:22] Shiber: GhengisFarb, you are not aware of our team's status or strength.
[00:22] Shiber: cya MasterZen
[00:23] Panzer32_: bye MZ
[00:23] GhengisFarb: Yep, you have the smallest military in the game.
[00:23] * MasterZen has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[00:23] Shiber: GhengisFarb, maybe that's because we've chosen not to upgrade our units until now.
[00:24] Shiber: Your team's military is average compared to ours. Why should we trust that you'd be able to fully pay a 20-turn gpt deal either?
[00:24] Panzer32_: Shiber: how about smaller GPT with more $ upfront?
[00:24] GhengisFarb: Well its obvious Vox has chosen to attack you BEFORE you get Feudalism, and your team has decided to help them achieve this goal. Why, I'm not sure.
[00:24] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I dunno what Vox were thinking but their strategy is flawed.
[00:25] Shiber: Also, I don't see how teasing is going to help here.
[00:25] GhengisFarb: Because we don't share a continent with a civ that has 40 Immortals in the field.
[00:25] Shiber: Panzer32_, if you can, please make two proposals - one with gpt, the other a mixed gpt and cash.
[00:25] Shiber: 40 immortals? Come on.
[00:25] GhengisFarb: Okya, maybe 36
[00:25] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I'm assuming that you don't have a map of their territory. You've also never seen our demographics screen.
[00:25] Shiber: You greatly underestimate us.
[00:26] GhengisFarb: I know that they just sold Monotheism to Roleplay, ND, Gow and Lego for $225 gold each, that's 900 gold they just used to upgrade warriors in addition to whatever else they had.
[00:27] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I doubt that, as they've been begging us for gold just a turn before they attacked.
[00:27] Shiber: Also, they've done zero research in the past few... I dunno, 10 turns perhaps.
[00:27] GhengisFarb: No, I have verified statements from all four teams.
[00:27] Panzer32_: mixed proposals: like 1. Feud for 80g + 6gpt and 2. sea ROP for Wines when we get trade route and 3. Iron for 2gpt when we need it?
[00:28] Shiber: Well, that's great then, we'll get plenty of gold when we sack their cities.
[00:28] GhengisFarb: They don't have a dime now, at least 900 gold was used to upgrade to Immortals in the last 4 turns.
[00:29] Shiber: Panzer32_, no, I meant two proposals: one like what you suggested earlier (20 gpt for Feudalism and sea ROP and everything else), another where GoW's payment is a mixture of gpt and gold.
[00:29] Shiber: GhengisFarb, how can you tell that they're broke?
[00:29] Panzer32_: sorry, the 20gpt was a mistake.
[00:30] Panzer32_: I meant the 12gpt that you had in your original offer for Feudalism.
[00:30] GhengisFarb: They told me they don't have any money right now as they used it all to upgrade. They are once again begging other teams for gold and asking for money in return for future trade deals.
[00:30] Shiber: So what? Vox are known liars.
[00:31] Shiber: I have hard facts proving that the numbers you've given me are way off.
[00:32] GhengisFarb: So your saying you will have Feudalism in 8 turns?
[00:32] Shiber: What?
[00:32] Shiber: What are you talking about? No, I never said that.
[00:32] GhengisFarb: Okay 10 turns then? How much longer is it going to take?
[00:32] Shiber: At the maximum research speed, we can have Feudalism in 2 turns. I suppose we can also have it in 8 turns if we'd like, or 10, or 100.
[00:33] Shiber: If we have the funding, we can deliver Feudalism in two or three turns.
[00:33] Shiber: If we hold off research for a turn to fund some upgrades, it'll be 3 or 4 turns.
[00:33] GhengisFarb: We should finish it in 7 so we;ll probably just finish it ourselves.
[00:33] Shiber: Most likely 3, our economists say.
[00:33] Shiber: Very well. If you'd like to pay the full, first researcher price then be my guest.
[00:34] Shiber: Btw, you are still in Despotism right?
[00:34] GhengisFarb: Yep.
[00:34] Shiber: How long are you going to stay in Despotism? (if you can say)
[00:35] GhengisFarb: We were going to wait until some objectives were met before switching to Republic, we are in the middle of some building projects.
[00:35] Shiber: Are you going to switch within less than 7 turns or after you've researched Feudalism yourselves?
[00:36] Shiber: GhengisFarb, what is GoW's GNP, according to the demographics screen?
[00:36] Panzer32_: Shiber: what do you mean about the second proposal, where we pay you? What do we get out of it?
[00:36] Shiber: If I'm not asking for too much.
[00:37] Shiber: Panzer32_, no, I meant that the same conditions stay (wines, ROP, Feudalism etc'), but you offer to pay either 12 gpt or less than that in gpt and some cash upfront. I can post those two proposals and let my team decide.
[00:39] Panzer32_: oh. ok. We might just decide to research Feud. ourselves.
[00:39] Shiber: Instead of buying it for ~30% of the research cost? Sure. Be my guest.
[00:39] Shiber: I honestly can't believe what I'm seeing here.
[00:40] Shiber: First GhengisFarb practically calls me a liar, cross-examines me and acts quite arrogantly, as if he knows anything of GS's position.
[00:40] GhengisFarb: This is all contingent on your team following through. When the first wave of Immortals hits you there is a strong possiblity you will delay again just like you did this time. Your team is building a rep for not being able to deliver its deals within the timeframes its says it will.
[00:40] Shiber: GhengisFarb, provide one past example for that statement.
[00:41] GhengisFarb: You said you would have it completed in two turns, then you come back and say it will take several turns longer, there is no reason to not assume this will happen again.
[00:41] Shiber: Also, no "wave of immortals" is going to hit us. Vox doesn't have a million immortals like you say; they don't even have 15 immortals, as far as I can tell, and my prediction is based on hard facts, not stuff I heard from Vox's mouth.
[00:42] Shiber: Feel free to kick me out of this room any time, if my presence is not wanted.
[00:42] Shiber: GhengisFarb, so what? We haven't committed to anything yet.
[00:42] Shiber: GS is free to delay research by a turn if it pleases.
[00:43] Panzer32_: but we were going to pay you some upfront expressly so you can finish it quickly.
[00:43] GhengisFarb: Your haugty attitude that "here is our deal, but we have now decided to delay it several turns because we are superior to you" doesn't go over well.
[00:43] Shiber: Of course, if we do commit then we are going to treat this differently, and meet the conditions that we committed for.
[00:43] Shiber: Yes, well, Vox's attack was kind of a surprise event, don't you think?
[00:44] GhengisFarb: But that had no effect on your reasoning for delaying research according to your comments. If that was the case I would understand, but you said it wasn't.
[00:44] Shiber: Then you've misunderstood me.
[00:44] Shiber: Your fault, not mine.
[00:45] Shiber: We want to upgrade some units this turn, and send them to meet immortals. What's so hard to understand about that?
[00:45] Shiber: Additionally, there's a city improvement that we'd like to rush.
[00:45] Shiber: If we continue researching this turn, we won't have enough funds for all that.
[00:45] Panzer32_: but we would give you $ upfront to pay for the researching.
[00:46] Shiber: If you do that, then we can complete Feudalism when we originally thought we could, before Vox declared war.
[00:46] GhengisFarb: How much upfront cash would it take to continue reasearching Feudalim for completion in 2 turns?
[00:46] Shiber: That's what I've been trying to tell you.
[00:46] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I'll have to ask.
[00:46] GhengisFarb: Ask
[00:47] Shiber: I'm going to post to the public forum.
[00:47] GhengisFarb: When do you'll get an answer?
[00:47] Panzer32_: so how about 200 gold in total, some upfront, and the rest GPT. Upfront = amount you need to get it done in 2 turns.
[00:49] Shiber: Posted: "How much cash would we need to be able to continue researching at max speed? GoW are considering giving us some of the 12 gpt for Feudalism this turn, in the form of cash, if we can meet our current deadline."
[00:49] Shiber: I meant private forum, sorry.
[00:50] Shiber: GhengisFarb, I can't tell, though it's been very active today, as you can imagine. It could take minutes.
[00:50] GhengisFarb: Public forum works, Betahound uses it.
[00:50] Panzer32_: lol
[00:50] arrian No such nick/channel
[00:50] arrian End of /WHOIS list.
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[00:51] * Trip has joined #gow
[00:52] GhengisFarb: Might your team be interested in making us an offer to attack Vox from the west with our Horsemen once they have been purged from Bob?
[00:52] Shiber: Hi Trip
[00:52] Trip: hiya
[00:52] * Trip fades into the mist
[00:52] Shiber: No thanks, we are confident of our victory.
[00:53] GhengisFarb: Its good to be confident, better to be victorious.
[00:55] GhengisFarb: i gotta leave for a minute, but will be right back.
[00:55] * GhengisFarb has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[00:59] Panzer32_: So, Shiber. How about this proposal: 200 gold (GS determines what is GPT and what is upfront, no more than 100g upfront) + wines (with trade route) + 2gpt for Iron when needed for Feudalism in 2 turns + Iron (when needed) + sea RoP.
[01:00] Shiber: It sounds possible. Please explain again why you need a sea ROP.
[01:01] Shiber: (so I can quote you and post on the GS private forum)
[01:01] Panzer32_: we are looking for islands with Iron. Also - we would get a trade route to give you wines and trade for Iron if we don't find an island.
[01:02] Shiber: Okay, quoting and posting.
[01:02] Panzer32_: also add this
[01:03] *DeepO* GoW chat still going on?
[01:03] Panzer32_: we would attempt, as much as possible, to keep our galley out of GS's cultural border.
[01:03] * DeepO has joined #GOW
[01:03] DeepO: hi there
[01:03] DeepO: am I welcome here?
[01:03] Panzer32_: sure 
[01:03] Panzer32_: for now
[01:03] DeepO:
[01:04] DeepO: what's goin on?
[01:04] Panzer32_: discussing trades.
[01:04] DeepO: okay. I think I'm partly informed
[01:04] DeepO: (at least up to 10 minutes ago, I was up to date)
[01:05] * Panzer32_ sets mode: +k password
[01:06] *DeepO* are you there?
[01:06] -: *DeepO* yes
[01:06] *DeepO* Hello... I'm not here. Leave a msg after the beep. BEEP!
[01:07] Panzer32_: I'm going to have to go pretty soon.
[01:07] -: *DeepO* been posting
[01:07] DeepO: well... can anyone fill me in?
[01:07] DeepO: because I can't stay long either
[01:07] DeepO: does something still need to be discussed?
[01:07] Shiber: DeepO, I've just posted GoW's proposal to the forum.
[01:07] -: *DeepO* check the gow comments thread
[01:07] *DeepO* ok
[01:08] -: *DeepO* i mean the GoW log
[01:09] DeepO: Okay
[01:09] DeepO: just read it...
[01:09] DeepO: this is a bit too large change to decide now, of course
[01:09] DeepO: we should be able to discuss this in team
[01:09] DeepO: but it sounds interesting to me
[01:10] Panzer32_: Shiber, please PM me about any response from your team. It would be great if we can do the deal this turn.
[01:11] -: *Panzer32_* I'm crossing my fingers that this would work.
[01:11] -: *Panzer32_* Note though, that it's 1:11AM local time.
[01:11] *Panzer32_* I hope so too.
[01:11] -: *Panzer32_* I can't stay up forever, lol
[01:11] -: *Panzer32_* Is this deal approved on your side?
[01:11] DeepO: were probably going to sit on the turn for as long as possible... but 1 turn is fast in a democratic environment 
[01:11] Shiber: We have about 9 more hours to sit on it
[01:12] DeepO: yeah...
[01:12] *Panzer32_* not technically, but I pretty much can do whatever providing my team isn't really against it.
[01:12] DeepO: maybe too fast...
[01:13] DeepO: oh well, it looks like this conversation has reached its end, glad to have met you, Panzer32 (although it was short)
[01:13] DeepO: i'm going to head to bed...
[01:13] DeepO: bye
[01:13] * DeepO has left #GOW
[01:14] *Aeson* how do I get in?
[01:14] *Panzer32_* I've got to go now. See you later
[01:14] -: *aeson* do /join #gow password (password is the password. Ha! How clever!!)
[01:14] -: *Panzer32_* wait a sec
[01:14] *Panzer32_* k?
[01:14] Shiber: Aeson will be coming in a min.
[01:14] Shiber: He may want to ask you a question or two.
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[01:14] Aeson is ~aeson@dpc6682045137.direcpc.com * Joseph Seeley
[01:14] Aeson on #Apolyton
[01:14] Aeson using apolyton.net Apolyton Settler Server
[01:14] Aeson has been idle 52secs, signed on Thu Apr 10 00:00:35
[01:14] aeson End of /WHOIS list.
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[01:15] Shiber: He's here, I'm just explaining how he should get in.
[01:15] * Aeson has joined #gow
[01:15] Shiber: Welcome!
[01:15] Aeson: Hello
[01:15] Panzer32_: I can answer a q quickly.
[01:16] Panzer32_: GF just came to #apolyton. tell him the password and tell him the deal I proposed
[01:16] Panzer32_: sorry, PM me the question. I'll get back to you after dinner.
[01:16] Panzer32_: bye
[01:16] * Panzer32_ has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[01:18] Shiber: lol, all but members of GoW in here.
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GhengisFarb greatly underestimates us. Our strategy of flying below radar is working. 
He's also playing a weird game there... trying to scare us into accepting a worse deal, perhaps?
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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:26
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Shiber, can you edit your part in?
quote:
Session Start: Fri Apr 11 00:21:19 2003
Session Ident: #gow
[00:21] * Now talking in #gow
[00:21] /alva/ hi all
[00:21] /Aeson/ It takes a/d values into consideration
[00:21] /GhengisFarb/ Hi
[00:21] /Aeson/ if it checks mobility, it is little to nothing of the rating
[00:22] /Aeson/ Have you seen the map of Vox's territory?
[00:22] /Aeson/ (not asking for it btw, they gave it to us before the war started)
[00:22] /GhengisFarb/ Do want to trade us maps so we can see it?
[00:22] /GhengisFarb/ 
[00:23] /Aeson/ It wasn't the most strategic of decisions. They are now fighting in the dark while we can see.
[00:23] /Shiber/ We should discuss this in the forum. I'd be in favor though.
[00:23] /Aeson/ We coudl possibly discuss a trade of that information.
[00:23] /Aeson/ I would be in favor of trading screenshots at least.
[00:23] /Aeson/ In game maps may be harder to swing.
[00:24] /GhengisFarb/ We have ND/GoW/RP maps, the island between Legolas and us and a large chunk of Lego's coast.
[00:24] /Panzer32/ in game maps = trading... but if you don't want to then whatever...
[00:24] /Panzer32/ yeah, we have a large map
[00:24] /GhengisFarb/ It would also open sea trade routes for your team to ND, GoW and Roleplay.
[00:24] /Shiber/ Well, there's a problem with trading in-game maps.
[00:25] /Shiber/ If we trade you our in-game map, we'd have to ask you not to distribute it for at least 10 turns, because of the situation with Vox.,
[00:25] /GhengisFarb/ That would be reasonable.
[00:25] /Shiber/ That would mean that you won't be able to sell your world map to anyone at all, under these conditions
[00:25] /GhengisFarb/ That just makes it more valuable in ten turns.
[00:25] /alva/ I doubt we will get that approved though (in-game maps)
[00:26] /Shiber/ I agree with alva. We are a paranoid bunch.
[00:26] /alva/ we need to be for now
[00:26] /Shiber/ But screenshots of Vox's territory would be fine, at least by me.
[00:27] /GhengisFarb/ We have several galleys hugging coast (so they don't sink) looking for islands.
[00:27] /alva/ hmm, yes, that could be done, maybe
[00:27] /Shiber/ You wanted a sea RoP, right?
[00:27] /Panzer32/ yeah
[00:27] /GhengisFarb/ Yes
[00:28] /alva/ whats rop again?
[00:28] /Shiber/ I believe that you offered wines in exchange
[00:28] /Shiber/ Rights of Passage
[00:28] /alva/
[00:28] /Aeson/ I would be more inclined to support a map trade than a sea ROP.
[00:28] /GhengisFarb/ We have one with Lego, they don't want to trade us their map but this allows us to go along the coast and look for islands.
[00:28] /Shiber/ Technically, if you did your best possible to stay out of our cultural borders, I would be fine with it, and so would most of my teammates, I think; however, the payment doesn't seem suitable.
[00:29] /GhengisFarb/ Absolutely no landing on home continents.
[00:29] /Aeson/ Perhaps a trade of a screenshot of our coasts with all the land blacked out?
[00:29] /Shiber/ Our economists tell me that wines are not of any worth to us, unfortunately.
[00:29] /Aeson/ We have nothing of interest offshore I'm afraid. If we did it would be settled within a few turns.
[00:29] /GhengisFarb/ That could be doctored, we are very leary of non game maps as several teams have grossly misrepresented their land positions.
[00:29] /Aeson/ By offshore I mean that a galley could safely cross. We don't know anything beyond that
[00:30] /Aeson/ That's fair. The Sea ROP and in game maps would be hard from our standpoint at this time.
[00:31] /GhengisFarb/ But my mapping the outline of the continents we can tell where large unoccupied areas are and risk suicide galleys into those areas looking for subcontinents.
[00:31] /Shiber/ GhengisFarb, what if we did the exploration around our continent, searching for islands that are reachable by galley, and reported to you if we found anything?
[00:31] /Shiber/ That's just an idea, but it might work
[00:32] /GhengisFarb/ We'd rather do it ourselves so our galleys can shoot off to any distant coastal glimpses they find.
[00:32] /Aeson/ Where is your closest Galley?
[00:32] /Shiber/ Thinking of building the Great Lighthouse?
[00:32] /GhengisFarb/ Between our contient and Vox, fairly close to Grog Mountain.
[00:33] /GhengisFarb/ No the Lighthouse expires .
[00:35] /Aeson/ Would GoW be interested in sending unit reports to GS about Vox movement along the roads nearby? Perhaps as part of a deal to allow your Galley to then move S through our borders (just about the whole coast is claimed).
[00:35] /Aeson/ At this time a Sea ROP with GoW is one sided, as we don't have any Galleys remotely near your shores. This could possibly be a way to make up the difference
[00:35] /GhengisFarb/ If you will allow us to explore the coasts then we could give you troops reports on the Vox columns along the road.
[00:37] /Aeson/ It would require your Galley staying put for at least 5 turns. moving back and forth N and S.
[00:37] /Panzer32/ we would be interested in a trade like that
[00:37] /Shiber/ I apologize, but I must go. RL is calling - emergency, I'm afraid.
[00:37] /Aeson/ Have you already moved the galley this turn?
[00:37] /GhengisFarb/ The first one would continue on with the second one hanging out around Eliopolis.
[00:37] /GhengisFarb/ Until Vox sinks it of course.
[00:38] /alva/ Isn't an island, that is (rather) close to us or vox more or less worthless to you?
[00:38] /Panzer32/ I have to go too
[00:38] /GhengisFarb/ No, not if it has Iron.
[00:38] /Panzer32/ bye Shiber; all
[00:38] /alva/ bi
[00:38] * Shiber holds hands with Panzer32 and walks out the door
[00:38] /Shiber/ lol
[00:38] /Aeson/ The area I was thinking of was on the coast NW of Grog mountain, down 3 tiles, and back up next turn.
[00:38] /alva/ 
[00:39] /Aeson/ Bye Panzer
[00:39] /GhengisFarb/ Or if its a big enough one worth building a Forbidden Palace on.
[00:39] /Shiber/ Cya everyone, I'll be back tomorrow.
[00:39] /GhengisFarb/ Bye Panxer
[00:39] /GhengisFarb/ Panzer
[00:39] * Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Shiber has no reason)
[00:39] * Panzer32 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[00:39] /GhengisFarb/ Bye Shiber
[00:39] /Aeson/ There is a gap there that you would see any troops moving S along the road.
[00:39] /GhengisFarb/ We see one column right now.
[00:40] /Aeson/ I can't give the final go ahead, but take a screenshot of that column for if/when the deal goes through ok?
[00:41] /GhengisFarb/ Ok, I can tell you that your estimate to their force strenght is way off though.
[00:41] /Aeson/ We know that they have built Immortals/Spears regularly, I only commented on the Warriors they had to upgrade.
[00:41] /Aeson/ Sorry if I was misleading.
[00:42] /Aeson/ The rest of the analysis is based on Vox's cities and terrain, which was why I asked if you had seen it.
[00:42] /GhengisFarb/ Understood.
[00:42] /GhengisFarb/ They have several closely packed cities from what we can observe.
[00:43] /Aeson/ You have seen most everything of note of their terrain I'm thinking. Their land is very narrow.
[00:43] /GhengisFarb/ Yes, it is much smaller that our own land on Bob and we are the runt kingdom on Bob. 
[00:44] /Aeson/ So I don't mind telling you that they have 5 cities (including Elipolis) N of the isthmus, and one S
[00:44] /Aeson/ 3 are size 4
[00:44] /GhengisFarb/ i don't know about sizes other than Eli.
[00:44] /Aeson/ A size 3 (Eli)
[00:44] /Aeson/ and 2 more size 1 (they have been whipping)
[00:45] /GhengisFarb/ I would say that they have commited themselves to taking GS out or else.
[00:45] /Aeson/ We can guarantee it is 'or else'
[00:46] /alva/ They did surpeise us, it was well set-up
[00:46] /alva/ *surprise
[00:46] /Aeson/ Yes, and almost at the worst possible time for us.
[00:47] /GhengisFarb/ So no official acceptance on the Feudalism deal?
[00:47] /Aeson/ But we can react very quickly.
[00:47] /alva/
[00:47] /alva/ ah well, that's whats makes this game fun
[00:47] /Aeson/ I'm afraid not. We need cash right now just to make sure we don't lose cities before we can build any Pikes
[00:48] /GhengisFarb/ So there's no point in our sending the 100 gold now.
[00:48] /Aeson/ No, it doesn't look like it
[00:49] /Aeson/ We can finish our upgrades with this next turn's commerce, and finish rushing a Barracks we need hopefully.
[00:50] /Aeson/ the 100 gold would only cover our losses at this point, we run a rather large deficit at 100% (republic does that)
[00:50] /GhengisFarb/ This is really forcing us to adjust our strategy as we have to research it ourselves now.
[00:50] /alva/ GF, why do you need Feud so fast? Vox is off BoB right, so you aren't in any imediate danger, are you?
[00:51] /Aeson/ We can still have it in 4-5 turns, and definitely will meet our initial timeframe
[00:51] /Aeson/ Our GA will start any turn now as well, that may shave off a turn or even two.
[00:52] /GhengisFarb/ We aren't researching anything as we wanted to start on Chivalry when we got Feudalism and ditched 5 turns of Feudalism research because we thougth we could buy it from you.
[00:53] /alva/ still can
[00:53] /Aeson/ You still can buy it from us of course. Shiber's feelers about going full bore were to see if we could find a deal where we could cover our gold needs and get both of us Feudalism faster. While your offer is generous, it doesn't come nearly to that point now that Vox has declared war on us.
[00:54] /Aeson/ Might we also strike some deal as to Chivalry?
[00:54] /Aeson/ We will be in our GA, and likely can research it about twice as fast as any other team.
[00:54] /Aeson/ (assuming Vox doesn't kill us )
[00:54] /alva/ Would you be interested in us NOT selling chivalry to ND
[00:55] * alva kicks Aeson
[00:55] /Aeson/ Hey... save it for Vox!
[00:55] /alva/ lol
[00:55] /GhengisFarb/ We now are looking at getting Feudalism not too far from when we would have researched it our selves. If you lose some cities to Vox that may put Feudalism even farther out that 3 turns. We either take a chance that you will finish it which is not a definite or research it ourselves.
[00:56] /alva/ we won't loose 3 cities
[00:56] /Aeson/ If we emptied our cities of units, Vox couldn't hurt our research capacity enough to delay our timing of Feudalism.
[00:56] /Aeson/ Immortals just aren't that fast.
[00:57] /Aeson/ They have too far to travel.
[00:57] /Aeson/ And Vox has no Horses.
[00:57] /GhengisFarb/ You hope you want, but Vox has the advantage of haveing preplaced their units before the conflict. There are a bunch that should enter your borders next turn.
[00:57] /Aeson/ All vox can threaten in the next 6 turns is a size 4 city and a size 1 city, both relatively corrupt.
[00:58] /Aeson/ They can't enter our borders next turn except by sea, it's as simple as that.
[00:59] /Aeson/ We have enough warning from Grog to guarantee that they can't even do that this turn on the W coast either.
[00:59] /GhengisFarb/ If you finished Feudalism asap then we coudl start researching Chivalry while you concentrated solely on the war. Then you have both war resources and a speedy Chivalry.
[00:59] /Aeson/ We would need 200 gold up front. We have to upgrade our final few units.
[00:59] /Aeson/ it's the only way we can go full bore.
[01:00] /GhengisFarb/ If we gave you 200 gold up front will you guarantee us Feudalism in 2 turns?
[01:01] /Aeson/ Like I said earlier, I think Shiber's math was off. It takes us 3 turns (I don't have access to the save to make sure)
[01:02] /GhengisFarb/ Guaranteed to receive it in 3 turns and the right for our galleys to travel unmolested for 200 gold THIS turn, we will accept it before we send it.
[01:02] /Aeson/ 200 gold up front would give us 100 gold after the losses, so it might be doable.
[01:02] /Aeson/ It's a big deal, how long can you hold the save for?
[01:03] /Aeson/ Or would be willing that is.
[01:03] /GhengisFarb/ another 2 hours.
[01:03] * nbarclay has joined #GoW
[01:03] /Aeson/ Hello Nathan
[01:03] /alva/ I'm sorry (havn't read everything yet), but wasn't 200 gold the price for delivery in 7 turns?
[01:03] /nbarclay/ Hi everyoe
[01:03] /Aeson/ Yes it was.
[01:03] /GhengisFarb/ Yes, but we are paying it up front
[01:04] /Aeson/ But we do gain by having enough gold for our upgrades and to get Pikes ASAP
[01:04] /nbarclay/ We'll lose as much up front researching as we'll get up front from you.
[01:04] /nbarclay/ Our ability to upgrade troops will be slowed down.
[01:04] /GhengisFarb/ you can shift to partial research and upgrade units each turn starting the turn you finish Feudalism.
[01:05] /Aeson/ GF, would you be willing to guarantee that your Galleys would never be within 8 tiles of each other in our waters? (should work with the delay of the second anyways)
[01:05] /nbarclay/ If we try to deliver in three turns, we have to go pretty much full steam.
[01:05] /GhengisFarb/ No two of our galleys within 8 tiles of each other in your water?
[01:05] /alva/ How many galleys btw?
[01:05] /GhengisFarb/ 2
[01:05] /nbarclay/ As I recall, we needed three turns at our highest viable research rate to finish.
[01:06] /alva/ Why 2?
[01:06] /GhengisFarb/ We were going to send one each way along your continents coast
[01:07] /alva/ they are empty, are they not?
[01:07] /Aeson/ The second galley will be scouting Vox's road for 5 turns.
[01:07] /Aeson/ Sending us screenshots.
[01:08] /GhengisFarb/ They have mobile units in case they locate a big island that they can't completely research from the shore.
[01:08] /GhengisFarb/ but no settlers
[01:08] /Aeson/ So 2 Horses in each?
[01:08] /Aeson/ or just 1?
[01:09] /GhengisFarb/ no, one in each but we will move both to the scout galley in case vox tries to sink the one by Eli.
[01:09] /Aeson/ Ok. And you realize that we will kill those units if they land on GS's continent?
[01:10] /GhengisFarb/ Yes, I don't think two Horsemen would last long in the heart of an opposing empires production base.
[01:10] /Aeson/ I agree, not with our road network
[01:11] /Aeson/ I feel it's only fair to warn you that you won't find any Galley crossings.
[01:11] /Aeson/ Not S of the Vox border at least, can't say for sure up N
[01:12] /GhengisFarb/ At least we will map out the area covered by known continents and be able to guess where other continents might lie.
[01:12] /GhengisFarb/ We've already found one 18 tile island.
[01:13] /Aeson/ We had heard that. Supposedly Lux was heading there before Vox destroyed them
[01:13] /GhengisFarb/ We found it so I doubt they would have beat us to it.
[01:14] /alva/ Wouldn't it make more sence to buy iron from us and use the galley for something else?
[01:14] /Aeson/ It wasn't really GS' concern if Lux made it there or not, just that they left.
[01:14] /Aeson/ You certainly had the jump on them.
[01:14] /GhengisFarb/ But then we are at your mercy for Iron, if you decide to attack us you will just cut us off.
[01:15] /alva/ Finding a small island right next to us, is going to have the same end result, isn't it.
[01:16] /nbarclay/ Iron that can't be reached by pure coast tiles is worthless until Astronomy, so anything in our direction would
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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:26
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part II
quote:
be a long-term proposition.
[01:16] /Aeson/ If they find such an Island, maybe not... cause it would be invisible
[01:16] /nbarclay/ Any islands, that is.
[01:16] /alva/ Or , you could just be nice to us...
[01:16] /GhengisFarb/ You would never know of our secret Iron Island because you don't trade maps.
[01:17] /nbarclay/ But if your ships can find it, couldn't one of ours?
[01:17] /Aeson/ It's a failing on our part, we enjoy the dark
[01:17] /alva/ not orange?
[01:17] /GhengisFarb/ What ships, how many ships do you have?
[01:18] /alva/ for the moment , as much as we need.
[01:18] /nbarclay/ I'd rather not speak about current force levels. But I was really thinking more toward the future.
[01:19] /nbarclay/ For the moment, any galleys we might have or get soon have higher priorities than exploration.
[01:20] /nbarclay/ And no, we haven't been building up anything that would threaten Bob.
[01:22] /GhengisFarb/ What the?
[01:22] /Aeson/ One will need to be replacing your scout vessel by the time it moves off.
[01:22] /Aeson/ You had mentioned Luxuries to Shiber right?
[01:23] /Aeson/ Something wrong?
[01:23] /GhengisFarb/ I think Panzer did
[01:24] /Aeson/ The ROP would open up a sea route between us. I'm not sure how it works in MP though, do both need the map?
[01:25] /GhengisFarb/ Did you see a red comment line in the dialogue?
[01:25] /alva/ ?
[01:26] /Aeson/ No I didn't
[01:26] /Aeson/ What did it say?
[01:27] /GhengisFarb/ Togas is chatting with me and I keep seeing comments in this dialogue.
[01:27] /Aeson/ That is very weird
[01:28] /GhengisFarb/ He's pissed because he thinks we are trying to get Feudalsim and he wants a trade embargo against GS
[01:30] * Panzer32[GoW] has joined #GoW
[01:30] /Panzer32[GoW]/ hello, Im back
[01:30] /alva/
[01:30] /Panzer32[GoW]/ so whats up?
[01:30] /alva/ Why the trade embargo?
[01:30] /Aeson/ Welcome back Panzer
[01:31] /Panzer32[GoW]/ trade embargo!? 
[01:32] /Aeson/ Currently the negotiations stand at:
[01:32] /GhengisFarb/ He wants you to be taken down a few notches.
[01:32] /alva/ what for?
[01:32] /Aeson/ GoW: 200g, scout Vox's road with galleys for 5 turns with second Galley
[01:33] /Aeson/ GS: Sea ROP for 2 galleys not within 8 tiles of each other, Feudalism in 3 turns
[01:33] /nbarclay/ Just so it's clear, we'll get Feudalism on the third turn after we crank up research.
[01:34] /Panzer32[GoW]/ sounds reasonable.
[01:34] /nbarclay/ And we could deliver it immediately after, assuming the deal is approved.
[01:34] /GhengisFarb/ Agreed
[01:35] /Aeson/ You will be transfering both units onto the first galley, are they stacked or will that take a turn?
[01:36] /Aeson/ The NDA is still in effect as well. 10 turns was agreeable since you get it earlier?
[01:36] /GhengisFarb/ Yes, both units onto the first galley, they aren't stacked
[01:37] /GhengisFarb/ Yes 10 turn NDA
[01:37] /Aeson/ We just want to know when to expect your expedition.
[01:37] /Aeson/ To be clear, that is an NDA for GoW trading it, not for GS
[01:37] /GhengisFarb/ They have already moved this turn
[01:37] /Aeson/ And you are inbetween elipolis and Grog mountain?
[01:37] /GhengisFarb/ Yes, GOW want trade Feudalism to anyone else for 10 turns
[01:38] /GhengisFarb/ We are in the tile nw of Grog Mountain
[01:39] /Aeson/ Ok, you would enter our territory (if it's still ours ) with 1 of the galleys in 2 turns.
[01:39] /GhengisFarb/ I'll take your word on that, I don' t know where your territory begins right now.
[01:40] /GhengisFarb/ brb phone call
[01:40] /Aeson/ 4 tiles S, 1 SW will be the first GS tile you enter.
[01:46] /Panzer32[GoW]/ what does NDA stand for? I always called it NTC (no trade clause)
[01:46] /nbarclay/ Non-disclosure agreement.
[01:46] /Aeson/ Probably an artifact of us developing Alphabet and Writing seperately
[01:47] /Panzer32[GoW]/ so we can't tell the others that we have feudalism?
[01:47] /Panzer32[GoW]/ probably
[01:47] /alva/ and not sell either 
[01:48] /Aeson/ They will know that someone has it if they look at the research times. We would prefer if you didn't broadcast it of course
[01:48] /nbarclay/ Especially no sell, trade, give, etc.
[01:48] /Panzer32[GoW]/ well, if we don't tell them, they can't buy it
[01:49] /Aeson/ Is there any interest in coordinating Chivalry research?
[01:50] /Aeson/ If both of us research it we both get hurt, but if one of us feeds the other gold, then we both get it just as fast, and have more upgrade money between us
[01:51] /GhengisFarb/ back
[01:52] /Panzer32[GoW]/ would GS or GoW do the researching?
[01:53] /GhengisFarb/ We are researching Chivalry, it gives us our UU and we want to ensure have the best chance to get it before ND.
[01:53] /nbarclay/ You're sure you can beat ND to it?
[01:54] /nbarclay/ Keep in mind that they're in Republic, if I remember right.
[01:54] /nbarclay/ And I don't think you are yet.
[01:54] /GhengisFarb/ No offense, but this is too critical a tech for us to depend on another team. We hope to be in Republic by then
[01:54] /Aeson/ Either way we do save time and money. If we want more money between us, GoW can do the research, if we want it sooner, GS
[01:54] /alva/ they are (nd-/rep)
[01:55] /nbarclay/ Just to be clear, my only concern is trying to figure out the best way to get it for both teams.
[01:55] /alva/ Imagine having chivalry a couple of tursn sooner then ND...
[01:55] /nbarclay/ On one hand, having us research it would involve some risk if Vox hurts us too badly.
[01:56] /nbarclay/ On the other, we are already in Republic, and have an excellent research rate when we aren't too busy upgrading and such.
[01:56] /GhengisFarb/ Once we get Feudalism it would make sense for you to concentrate on building and rushing forces to win the war.
[01:57] /Aeson/ And will be in our GA
[01:57] /Aeson/ But that will just mean more upgrades for us
[01:57] /Aeson/ I'm fine either way.
[01:57] /alva/ Perhaps GoW can open a second front on VoX?
[01:58] /GhengisFarb/ I would prefer not to as we would have nothing to gain, I don't think you would want us to keep the cities we took on your continent?
[01:58] /Aeson/ No, Vox's territory will make the perfect FP area for us.
[01:58] /alva/ Take away a few galleys maybe?
[01:58] /Aeson/ And the close times are going to be the next 10 turns, after that Vox hasn't a chance.
[01:59] /GhengisFarb/ And we don't want to weaken our defenses versus ND.
[01:59] /nbarclay/ I can understand your concerns about ND quite well.
[02:00] /GhengisFarb/ I think our galleys are more useful as neutral observers than combatants. As long as we are neutral Vox doesn't have to know we are observing for your team.
[02:00] /GhengisFarb/ Unless we sit there in one spot for awhile, then it would be pretty obvious.
[02:01] /Aeson/ Feudalism and Chivalry are both cost 32. If we give the 200 g back halfway through your Chivalry research will that be an acceptable trade? We would have the NDA of course, this time that GoW can trade and GS can't.
[02:01] /alva/ Didn't GoW offically go to war on the publi forum thread? 
[02:02] /Aeson/ I agree, as long as we know how many units vox is sending we can position our forces best.
[02:03] /Aeson/ And galley landings (of the sort vox can put together) are much easier to kill than by land stacks... we always get the first shot
[02:04] /nbarclay/ Another possibility would be a trade of Chivalry for something we research at the same time.
[02:06] /nbarclay/ But come to think of it, if we pump gold into GoW, that would speed up their research and hence help them get Chivalry faster for both of us.
[02:06] /GhengisFarb/ The counter 200 trade would work. We did go to war the first time they landed but made peace for their city. We never went to war the second time, our diplo options wouldn't let us declare war and their units were gone by the time our Horsemen got to them
[02:07] /GhengisFarb/ Those galleys with Horsemen were looking for a chance to due some pillaging to hopefully make Vox pull back but then Vox attacked you instead and so we decided to use them to scout.
[02:08] * Aeson nods
[02:09] /GhengisFarb/ We never intended to take over Vox land just repulse them off of Bob.
[02:09] /Aeson/ We intend to wipe them out.
[02:10] /GhengisFarb/ Repulse them off Little Bob, pretty much the same we were going to do, they just aren' t anywhere else but Little Bob
[02:10] /Aeson/ Aye.
[02:10] /GhengisFarb/ Unless they got an island somewhere..........
[02:11] /nbarclay/ Just what I was thinking.
[02:11] /nbarclay/ They might actually survive for a while that way.
[02:11] /alva/ they will, right beside lux
[02:11] /nbarclay/ Until someone decides killing them is worth the trouble.
[02:11] /GhengisFarb/ If we find a Vox island we'll let you know
[02:12] /nbarclay/ Thanks, although we may just view the island as the penal colony they were confined to for their crimes.
[02:12] /alva/ squid island
[02:13] /GhengisFarb/ Thats what Nukes are for.
[02:13] /alva/
[02:13] /GhengisFarb/ the Orkin 5000 nuclear device
[02:14] /Panzer32[GoW]/ Nuclear riders!!!
[02:16] /Aeson/ How long left on those 2 hours?
[02:16] /GhengisFarb/ So is this a done deal?
[02:17] /Aeson/ It needs to be ratified by the team. I think it will pass. What do you think Nathan?
[02:17] /Aeson/ And alva?
[02:18] /alva/ can someone make the offer clear? Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings
[02:18] /GhengisFarb/ I will send the 200 gold, if it doesn't pass then simply don't accept the gold.
[02:18] /alva/ 
[02:18] /alva/
[02:19] /GhengisFarb/ Is 200 gold worth forcing us to side with Togas and Vox? Well? Is it? Punk? (Clint Eastwood voice)
[02:19] /Aeson/ haha
[02:19] /nbarclay/ Agreed on not accepting the gold if we don't ratify the deal.
[02:20] /alva/ 
[02:20] /Aeson/ That sounds good. 200 gold obviously isn't worth the price of our honor. We look forward to proving it.
[02:20] /GhengisFarb/ I think this leaves us pumping money into GS and Roleplay pumping money into Vox, which is kinda weird.
[02:21] /Aeson/ Interesting.
[02:21] /Aeson/ Not that Vox has much to do with gold right now. Despots with no more Warriors to upgrade
[02:21] /nbarclay/ Just what I was thinking.
[02:21] /Aeson/ Probably safer having the cash in Vox's hands than RP's
[02:22] /GhengisFarb/ Don't let Togas or Roleplay know that I told you about their comments about embargoing you. It might just be a bunch of BS they were telling us.
[02:23] /Aeson/ We've sorta come to an understanding with Togas and his way of diplomacy. Don't worry.
[02:23] /GhengisFarb/ They may be telling each team a different set of BS to see which ones tell each other what Roleplay is shoveling at them.
[02:23] /nbarclay/ Understood. The more they underestimate how much we're onto their games, the better.
[02:23] * Aeson nods
[02:24] /alva/ hmm
[02:25] /GhengisFarb/ I don't think Roleplay will take an active role anyway, they seem to encourage others to fight while colonizing their Seven Cities of Luxuries in the south.
[02:25] /Aeson/ I need to go grap something to eat now. It was a pleasure negotiating with you GF and Panzer.
[02:25] /GhengisFarb/ Likewise.
[02:25] /Aeson/ Bye
[02:25] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: )
[02:25] /alva/ bye Aeson
[02:25] /nbarclay/ Anything else we need to discuss?
[02:26] /alva/ I leaving too, if that was all (for now )
[02:26] /GhengisFarb/ No I beleive we covered everything.
[02:26] /GhengisFarb/ Does anyone have a log of this chat?
[02:26] /Panzer32[GoW]/ I can't think of anything else
[02:26] /alva/ ok, nice to have talked
[02:26] /alva/ see ya next time Clint
[02:27] /nbarclay/ Alva, do you have a complete log?
[02:27] /nbarclay/ Or something close?
[02:27] /alva/ yep
[02:27] /alva/ at least combined with shibers
[02:27] /GhengisFarb/ Can you send me a copy of the log for our team forum?
[02:28] /alva/ sure
[02:28] /alva/ mail?
[02:28] /GhengisFarb/ GhengisFarb AT msn DOT com
[02:28] /alva/ notice, that mines not complete!
[02:29] /nbarclay/ I'll be going too, now. It's been nice doing business. Bye.
[02:29] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net )
[02:30] /GhengisFarb/ Okay, could you see if Shiber has the first part?
[02:31] /GhengisFarb/ You have the final trade proposal which is the important part.
[02:31] /alva/ I'll ask, but aren't you two often in the chatroom?
[02:31] /alva/ should be on the way
[02:31] /GhengisFarb/ Shiber doesn't like me, but I will ask if I see him.
[02:32] /alva/ yes he does
[02:33] /alva/ anyways, i'm off now , see you
[02:33] /alva/ If you don't get the mail soon, contact me again, ok
[02:33] /GhengisFarb/ Ok
[02:33] /alva/ bye
[02:33] * Disconnected
Session Close: Fri Apr 11 02:33:41 2003
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:26
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Ok, sent the deal to GF and GoW (wasn't sure who to contact)
quote:
GF,
I am including the ratified Feudalism deal with this message. We are holding onto the save to make sure everything is in order before accepting the 200g, also for the screenshot of Voxian troop movements GoW took last turn to better direct our own.
Good luck to you and GoW in your naval exploration. We will coordinate things so that neither of our vessels will have to delay any movement for the other's.
Sincerely,
Aeson
quote:
GhengisFarb of the Glory of War,
It is the pleasure of GS to offer GoW this document confirming our agreement to the matters discussed yesterday.
We feel the agreement is best served for both parties with a few particulars that were not touched on in the discussions earlier. These are only suggestions on the part of GS, and if they fail to meet with the approval of GoW they can be erased and the agreement will still stand. These inclusions will be noted with a *.
If GoW has any suggestions as to any revisions or additions, GS will give the same consideration to those proposals. This is to allow for the final polish to be added to the agreement while avoiding any further delays in the signing which is time critical at this juncture. In no case will either party be forced to agree to any such additions if they feel they aren't in their own best interests.
------------------------------
The Terms: (currently turn 93)
Research and Payment:
GoW sends 200g to GS this turn.
GS will increase research funding on Feudalism to finish the advance on turn 96.
GS promises to deliver Feudalism to GoW as soon as it is researched.
GoW agrees to an NDA (NTC) on Feudalism for for the duration of 10 turns from when it is delivered to them. After 10 turns have passed from GoW recieving Feudalism, they are free to do with it as they see fit.
Sea ROP:
GS gives full access to the Galleys of GoW to navigate the shores of Little Bob. This access will last until GoW has had ample time to explore the circumferance of the continent or GoW is satisfied with the extent of their exploration.
GS agrees not to land any units on BoB for the duration of the Sea ROP *plus 10 turns, without explicit consent from GoW.
GoW agrees not to land any units on Little Bob for the duration of the Sea ROP *plus 10 turns, without explicit consent from GS.
GoW will use a Galley to observe the road between Elipolis and Dissidentville to report Voxian troop movements to GS for a duration of 5 turns. These reports will be in the form of screenshots showing the type and number of Voxian units within the Galley's sight. The Galley will each turn check the tiles NW of Grog Mountain, to 2 tiles South, NW of Vox's cultural borders if not hampered by Voxian vessels. After 5 turns time, the Galley is free to continue on it's way. *If GoW's Galley happens to be sunk by the Voxians, GoW will notify GS of it and the observation requirement will be dropped at that point.
GoW's ships in GS territory will not number more than two. Neither will the two venture within 8 tiles of each other. The first vessel will be allowed 2 Horsemen occupants. The second will be empty.
This Sea ROP will last until GoW's vessels are able to safely (or suicidally if GoW so chooses) leave GS' waters having explored their extent.
Future Chivalry Trade: (can be agreed to now or seperated from the above for further revision)
GoW researches Chivalry as soon as Feudalism is delivered to them.
GS will give 200g to GoW halfway through GoW's research of Chivalry.
GoW will give Chivalry to GS as soon as research is finished.
GS will observe an NDA (NTC) on Chivalry equivalent to that which GoW agrees to with Feudalism. After 10 turns have passed from GS receiving Chivalry, they are free to do with it as they see fit.
---------------------
This agreement in whole or in part (as noted by *) is hereby officially ratified by The Gathering Storm. |
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:26
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I'm thinking this will be my last message to GoW (other than a thank you for the next message if it comes). A new voice caught GF a bit off gaurd, but that it is wearing thin.
He seems to think he can bully Shiber even though it isn't true. It might be better for us to let him think that (sorry Shiber ) at this point though. If we show too strong to GoW, it gives RP's manipulations more foundation to work on.
Of course, if we roll over Vox and get our FP in place we won't be able to 'smurf', we become the big bad GS that everyone wants to ally against I'm afraid. Probably why RP got Vox to go all or nothing on us, they actually don't mind us getting bigger (and of course don't mind if Vox takes us out).
At that point we just have to make sure each team realizes that in an alliance against GS... we pick the 'next one out'. (ie. a Louis L'amour gunfight... "Sure you're buddies will win, but you're the one we're taking down with us")
quote:
GF,
Thanks for your candor about the situation. All teams have their difficulties in this game, be it terrain, luck of the rng, or otherwise. If part of GS' difficulties are due to out of game reputation, so be it.
The possibility stands that GS will continue bidding against you to sell Feudalism to RP. RP has approached us about whether we are willing to underbid you or not already. I'd personally rather we let you take as much gold out of RP's hands as possible, but I can't say how our team will react. A bidding war is certainly not optimal for either of our teams, but for the one who wins the bidding, even 1g is more than none at all.
If you are worried about the embargo, at least you may see if RP is actually dedicated to it, or if they just want a "We can trade with GS when the price is in our favor, but no one else can" type of deal.
-------------------
On a more official note, how much of the agreement has GoW ratified? The sea ROP/intelligence gathering deal is obviously on (though we would like to be sure as to the particulars * noted before GoW enters our waters), as well as the Feudalism deal. Is the Chivalry deal acceptable, or is that not possible due to the embargo pressure?
- Aeson |
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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:26
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GF invited me to the chat, while the Lego meating was on-going:
quote:
Session Start: Sun Apr 13 23:24:05 2003
Session Ident: #gow
[23:24] * Now talking in #gow
[23:24] *alva* hi
[23:25] * mr_AFK|AFK has joined #GoW
[23:25] *mr_AFK|AFK* lol
[23:25] *mr_AFK|AFK* u need more security
[23:25] * mr_AFK|AFK has left #GoW
[23:25] -mr_AFK|AFK:#GoW- like at least a password
[23:25] -mr_AFK|AFK:#GoW-
[23:26] *alva* not my room
[23:29] *GhengisFarb* what's with the nosy rp'ers
[23:29] *alva* no idea
[23:29] *alva* So, what's up
[23:29] *GhengisFarb* How's the Vox war going?
[23:30] *alva* They seems to organize their units
[23:30] *GhengisFarb* ??
[23:30] *alva* their not at our front door yet
[23:31] *alva* Maybe they are waiting for the units thr recalled from BOB
[23:31] *GhengisFarb* We were wondering if your team would help us with a little ruse.
[23:31] *alva* Can't promise anything
[23:32] *GhengisFarb* Their aren't any Vox units on Bob
[23:32] *alva* will take into consideration of course
[23:32] *alva* never have been?
[23:33] * nbarclay has joined #GOW
[23:33] *GhengisFarb* We want to land a Horseman in GS land and start a fake war with GS. We would need your team to take a screenshot and scream like Bloody Murder in the Public Forum about how we backstabbed you
[23:33] *alva* ah
[23:33] *nbarclay* Alva invited me to join here. Hope that's okay.
[23:33] *GhengisFarb* We want ND and Roleplay to think we invade GS with all our troops and that we are ripe to be invaded ourselves.
[23:34] *alva* auch, that's one big favor, why?
[23:34] *alva* when? (before riders?)
[23:34] *GhengisFarb* We think one of them is planning to attack us and we want them to do it without realizing we are waiting for them.
[23:35] *GhengisFarb* Not for a few turns, we'll land the Horseman whereever you tell us to. It will be a tile of your choosing.
[23:35] *alva* you think you can get them to believe you invaded us without riders?
[23:36] *GhengisFarb* If your team brings it up, yes. Roleplay has been encouraging us to attack you before you get Feudalsim.
[23:36] *GhengisFarb* So its
[23:36] *alva* hmm
[23:36] *GhengisFarb* not unbelievable that we would do this.
[23:37] *GhengisFarb* This would make Vox think you are now having to split your forces.
[23:37] *alva* thats not gonna easely to be sold in the GS team
[23:37] *GhengisFarb* Understood, that why we brought it up several turns ahead of time.
[23:38] *alva* any idea, on what would be in there for us?
[23:38] *GhengisFarb* What do you want?
[23:39] *alva* why not phtoshop it?
[23:40] *GhengisFarb* If you guys are willing to photoshop it that would be fine, we just need your team to scream about ours landing in your land
[23:40] *alva* Besides, we have this honorable thing going, so we can 't lie...ever.
[23:41] *GhengisFarb* That's why we planned on landing a Horseman, everything you would say would be true. We DID invade your continent, and we did land our Horseman.
[23:42] *alva* hmmm
[23:42] *alva* Well, i'll post it on the forum.
[23:43] *GhengisFarb* We don't want to start this until after we get Feudalism and upgrade to Pikemen though.
[23:43] *alva* I don't many will be happy having units on our territory though, specially now.
[23:44] *GhengisFarb* We could land them adjacent to your troops which means you would have first attack opportunity
[23:44] *alva* So you don't really kno, who is going to attack you?
[23:44] *GhengisFarb* OH, we are pretty darn sure, we just don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet
[23:44] *alva*
[23:45] *alva* if it only were a cat hey
[23:45] *alva* Well, the more info you give, the more chance you got convincing the others (gs)
[23:46] *alva*
[23:46] *GhengisFarb* The problem is some of your team members are buddies with the team we think is going to attack us.
[23:46] *alva* buddies?
[23:47] *alva* so what, in this game, there are no friends
[23:47] *alva* no info on this will be passed through.
[23:47] *GhengisFarb* Who would be in the best postion to take advantage of this opportunity?
[23:48] *alva* your closest neighbour?
[23:48] *GhengisFarb* That could be either Vox or ND
[23:48] *alva* Vox?
[23:49] *alva* I would expect more for ND to travel south, and avoid your riders.
[23:50] *GhengisFarb* What RIders? We don't have Chivalry.
[23:50] *alva* (do you have the iron to do this?)
[23:50] *GhengisFarb* Currently, we have Iron
[23:50] *alva* You could in about 10 turns
[23:50] *GhengisFarb* That would work fine
[23:51] *GhengisFarb* We have to go through anarchy to get to Republic though.
[23:51] *alva* true
[23:52] *alva* So you think ND is going to attack you as soon as they have chivalry?
[23:53] *GhengisFarb* Both of us get our UU's with Chivalry
[23:53] *alva* yep, it's quite a coincedence to end up next to each other
[23:54] *GhengisFarb* Our Border looks the Western Front from WWI
[23:54] *alva* So, you are going to try to get them to come early...?
[23:54] *alva* lol
[23:54] *GhengisFarb* Once we upgrade our Spearmen to Pike
[23:55] *alva* what are the stats for the ND UU again?
[23:55] *alva* 5.3.2.
[23:55] *alva* ?
[23:55] *GhengisFarb* Not good, their just cheap
[23:55] *GhengisFarb* Ours is more expensive but has better stats
[23:56] *alva* upgrade from horsemen
[23:56] *nbarclay* Ansars are 4.2.3
[23:56] *GhengisFarb* That's why we've be stockpiling Horsemen
[23:56] *nbarclay* Riders 4.3.3
[23:56] *nbarclay* But Ansars cost ten gold less.
[23:56] *alva* best UU in the game, the rider
[23:57] *MasterZen* if you survive that long yes
[23:57] *alva*
[23:57] *alva* you have (almost)
[23:57] *alva*
[23:57] *MasterZen* that's why we must take care of that (almost) uncertainty
[23:58] *alva* hmm
[23:58] *GhengisFarb* The Ottoman UU is pretty potent, too bad that civ never survives that long.
[23:58] *MasterZen* yep
[23:58] *alva* Have you heard anything from VOX btw?
[23:58] *MasterZen* haven't you seen Beta's press releases?? hahahaha
[23:58] *GhengisFarb* I haven't heard anything outside the main forum in 3-4 days
[23:58] *alva* very good for SP games, too late for MP
[23:59] *alva* they are good
[23:59] *MasterZen* the avatar wars rule though...
[23:59] *alva* They didn't say anything about the galley in their waters???
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003
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To be continued
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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:26
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part deux
quote:
Session Start: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003
Session Ident: #gow
[00:00] *MasterZen* Jacques Costeau is on that galley, why should they complain?
[00:01] *alva* lol
[00:01] *MasterZen* except he has some pretty neat binoculars...
[00:01] *alva* Well, you could have trained some dolphins
[00:02] *MasterZen* GoW prefers sharks
[00:02] *alva* not squid?
[00:03] *alva* ah, you weren't in the team yet
[00:03] *alva* (to understand the squid thing)
[00:03] *MasterZen* note to self: shall have to enquire on the squid joke
[00:03] *alva*
[00:03] *alva* Why didn't you join GS btw
[00:04] *MasterZen* I made a tradeoff
[00:04] *alva* you were about to be admitted
[00:04] *GhengisFarb* Squid is the national food of Roleplay
[00:04] *MasterZen* I said I would join GoW this game, and the strat forum team in the next PTWDG
[00:04] *GhengisFarb* And Coat of Arms.
[00:04] *alva*
[00:04] *MasterZen* since I joined well after it started I feel i would be more useful to the smaller team
[00:05] *alva* we are not that big, just many people use the icon 
[00:05] *GhengisFarb* We're much smaller than we appear
[00:05] *MasterZen* like MegloManiac? hahaha
[00:05] *alva* meglomaniac for one 
[00:05] *alva* lol
[00:06] *alva* I'm glad other teams know, he is not on the team :relieved:
[00:06] *MasterZen* that guy had no shame..
[00:06] *alva* no he hasn't
[00:06] *MasterZen* look at the bright side, if you had accepted him you could've had like the entire family in
[00:06] *alva* lololol
[00:07] *alva* 
[00:07] *alva* we refused another one like him earlier..
[00:07] *alva* flash?
[00:08] *alva* Later he joined vox for a couple of weeks
[00:08] *MasterZen* then left?
[00:08] *alva* ok, when would you like to get an answer on this?
[00:08] *alva* yep, he got bored
[00:09] *MasterZen* do you think your team will really consider this proposal?
[00:10] *alva* Well, I can't say no, just by myself
[00:10] *alva* But like I said, I doubt, they will go for it
[00:10] *MasterZen* "they" as in your teammates?
[00:10] *alva* Us being honorable, not lieing etc..
[00:11] *alva* yes re: team
[00:12] *MasterZen* a lie is only a lie until the truth surfaces if it ever does...
[00:12] *alva* The best thing IMO, is to send a PM, explaining what you want, when, and what you would be willing to give in return for it
[00:13] *MasterZen* you can always bribe Trip to twist the truth... say like threatening him from staying in your forum.. hahaha
[00:13] *alva* nope, it's always a lie...
[00:13] *alva* Believe me, I've 'corrected' on a few occassion 
[00:13] *MasterZen* ok, send it to you or to Shiber?
[00:14] *alva* I didn't take the 'honarable' thing as literal as most do
[00:14] *MasterZen* hmmm...
[00:14] *alva* Send to Shiber, he our official GOW ambas atm (but you can send it to me too, if yo want)
[00:15] *MasterZen* sure, we'll draft a proposal ASAP and send it to you guys
[00:15] *alva* 
[00:15] *alva* ok, thats's it?
[00:16] *alva* see you
[00:16] *MasterZen* nothing can be more important than that
[00:16] *alva* bye
[00:16] *alva* lol
[00:16] *MasterZen* take care, bye
[00:16] *GhengisFarb* bye
[00:16] *alva* bye GF
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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A reminder to HotE:
quote:
Dear Hot_Enamel, King of the Hill and consul of the Glory of War Republic.
Finnaly the world is turning again. I trust that you don't take Al-Sah... eh, BetaHound's preposterous reasonings behind the cause of all this- after all, it was NYE, one of our founding fathers of our nations that has helped in the restoration of normalcy.
I hope all is well in The Hill, you certainly have a nice view from up there. I also hope that you will retain your post as an ambassador, for I have certainly enjoyed our correspondence, and felt it's positive contribution to the relations between our two nations.
More good news have come from the front, as our troops are continuing to inflict loses upon the Voxian foe, I'm sorry i can not tell you more than that for now, but i'm sure you understand.
I have yet to recieve a response regarding the issues I have raised in my earlier message: most importantly Peace agreement and the Chivalry deal.
Please reply as soon as you can
Cordially
Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:26
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After a short message sent to MZ. I got this from him:
quote:
Greetings Zeit!
Although Hot_Enamel was stepping down from his post from awhile ago, he had still been handling GS-GoW correspondence.
Various of our current members are currently occupied with RL business and will come back in a few weeks. In the meantime feel free to contact me personally for anything related to the diplomacy between our teams until we appoint another ambassador.
Best regards,
-Master Zen
Consul of Foreign Affairs
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I replied with this, hopefully not against the will of the team members...
quote:
Hello Master Zen!
Thank you for your quick reply- it certainly encourages me that I have someone to talk to...
Since interest in the game is no at its lowest since the begining, you can probably imagine what an unemployed diplomat I am.
With most teams concentrating on keeping pace with the turn cycle and making those life and death decision- there is little time left for day to day diplomacy. Hopefully this will now change with regard to the GoW.
And now, to business. You may or may not know, but when we signed the Feudalism trade agreement, we also talked about a future tech trade, with you selling Chivalry to us. This was the issue I was talking about with Hot_Enamel when he told me he would be stepping down. He mentioned that as far as he knows, the deal is still intact, but what he didn't tell me was when your tedh is due to be researched.
If you can spare us the infomation, I'd be most glad.
Many Thanks
Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.
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24-03-2003 23:38
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