18-02-2003 11:39									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger You're an idiot. Why should the Euros enforce your foreign policy?

Maybe they should get off the side lines and stop beaking off at the people who haul the freight?

	18-02-2003 11:41									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What's NK going to do, roll a nuke in an oil drum across Siberia and Canada?

How bout putting it on the ICBM the CIA says NK has which can reach the west?

	18-02-2003 11:46									#153
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe they should get off the side lines and stop beaking off at the people who haul the freight?

The US has the troops on the line. Therefore the US voice carries more weight. The Euros can say what they like, and have weight proportional to their diplomatic strength.

If the Euros put troops on the line in the numbers that the US has them, then they'd have a lot more say in how negotiations went. I don't think the Americans would like that, first of all (which is why my comment's directed at Ned; like many Americans he seems to believe that everybody else has a responsibility to carry out the decisions of his government) and second of all I don't think it would be a good idea to have a split western military authority in the region just for the sake of safety.

the Korean peninsula is and has been the exclusive domain of the US for 50 years. Telling the Euros they should come in now and clean up a mess they've had nothing to do with since 1953 is both stupid and counterproductive.

	18-02-2003 11:47									#154
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're the one getting hysterical with the smilies when talking about blockades and the like.

Attack your opponent, not the argument. Always easier that way.

	18-02-2003 11:49									#155
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why don't you show us credible information that they restarted thier program and extracted enough weapons grade material from it in the amount of time from the "Axis of Evil" speech and today?

I am not one of the people accusing DPRK. It seems that you are.

	18-02-2003 11:51									#156
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh come on! Surely Kim is a reasonable leader?!

Kim's a lunatic. The ****ing US pussyfooted around him when this crisis started brewing a year ago and have basically given him everything he wanted (they made an offer that looks exactly like Kim's original demands, without of course stooping to "negotiate"). Now that was so easy he figures he should be able to get a bit more, and the US is finally figuring out that they've got to make sure the NKers know who's got the warships while at the same time be willing to appear to be generous by continually giving in just a little bit to blackmail.

There's not going to be a war with NK unless:

a) The US keeps giving in way too easily making Kim take more and more or
b) The US gets into a fit of pique and decides to feel its oats a little bit (seriously, instead of bluffing)

	18-02-2003 11:53									#157
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No, I'm talking about NK. They're trying to get onto Washington's agenda, but nobody is buying their rhetoric. Kim's a page 21 kinda guy from a page 21 nation.

Whereas Saddam's a page 1 story from a page 50 nation.

	18-02-2003 11:56									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Kim's a lunatic.

He is anything but a lunatic. As the W. admininstration is planning on building up in NE Asia - even establishing a "NE Asia HQ," this comes out.

He knows exactly what he's doing.

	18-02-2003 11:58									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger The US has the troops on the line. Therefore the US voice carries more weight. The Euros can say what they like, and have weight proportional to their diplomatic strength. If the Euros put troops on the line in the numbers that the US has them, then they'd have a lot more say in how negotiations went.

I guess that is why we are all ripping ourselves up over Iraq, right?

How many French and German troops there?

	18-02-2003 11:59									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger He is anything but a lunatic. As the W. admininstration is planning on building up in NE Asia - even establishing a "NE Asia HQ," this comes out. He knows exactly what he's doing.

So did L Ron Hubbard.

	18-02-2003 12:00									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger How bout putting it on the ICBM the CIA says NK has which can reach the west?

With the nukes they say they have, right?

	18-02-2003 12:00									#162
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Kim got page 24 today for this "end of armistice" talk!

	18-02-2003 12:01									#163
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NYE: as the Bush admin keeps saying, "Iraq and NK are different situations"

Diplomacy is a lot more important in the ME than in the Koreas where it's basically a "Great Powers only" zone.

Everybody has a stake in the ME, Iraq is surrounded by nations of varying degrees of friendliness to it, Israel, Europe and the US, etc.

Euro reticence on Iraq means a lot more than Euro reticence on NK.

	18-02-2003 12:02									#164
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif...asp?NewsID=3871

Nothing solid then, just the usual finger pointing trick.

After Powell's own fiasco, I don't know if he can be trusted. As for CIA, how could you trust such a huge bureaucracy that uses outdated maps?

	18-02-2003 12:04									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Trip With the nukes they say they have, right?

What are you on about, sweetheart?

NK has fully functional uranium-separation facilities and breeder reactors.

The IAEA has been inside them. As soon as NK puts its mind to it, nuclear weapons become very easy to obtain. Just from this knowledge it's impossible to tell you whether or not they've actually built a nuke, but for the CIA to tell people that they have is a lot more credible than for them to tell people that Saddam, for instance has built one.

I would think that given NK's past it wouldn't shrink from actually carrying through and building a nuke.

	18-02-2003 12:15									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger NYE: as the Bush admin keeps saying, "Iraq and NK are different situations" Diplomacy is a lot more important in the ME than in the Koreas where it's basically a "Great Powers only" zone. Everybody has a stake in the ME, Iraq is surrounded by nations of varying degrees of friendliness to it, Israel, Europe and the US, etc. Euro reticence on Iraq means a lot more than Euro reticence on NK.

You mean not everyone has a stake in the world going nuclear over Kim?

The ME is no more difficult than the Koreas? AAMOF, it is a damn sight simpler.

btw, Euro softness on dictators is Euro softness on dictators. They have a history of not being effective in handeling them prior to the lid being blown off.

	18-02-2003 12:16									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Kim's a lunatic. The ****ing US pussyfooted around him when this crisis started brewing a year ago and have basically given him everything he wanted (they made an offer that looks exactly like Kim's original demands, without of course stooping to "negotiate"). Now that was so easy he figures he should be able to get a bit more, and the US is finally figuring out that they've got to make sure the NKers know who's got the warships while at the same time be willing to appear to be generous by continually giving in just a little bit to blackmail. There's not going to be a war with NK unless: a) The US keeps giving in way too easily making Kim take more and more or b) The US gets into a fit of pique and decides to feel its oats a little bit (seriously, instead of bluffing)

You're right frogger. He could try to use this strategy numerous times even if it fails, since it already worked very well the first time.

	18-02-2003 12:22									#168
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quote: The ME is no more difficult than the Koreas. AAMOF, it is a damn sight simpler.

No, actually it isn't.

And I have no clue what that abbreviation means...

quote: btw, Euro softness on dictators is Euro softness on dictators. They have a history of not being effective in handeling them prior to the lid being blown off.

What a crap observation. The Euro powers were a hell of a lot more proactive against, say, Hitler than the US was. They were simply more willing to use force when they had more force to use. Just like the US. Both show remarkable lack of judgment as to when force is required and when they should keep their hands off.

And where was this supposed US willingness to get rid of dictators when the dicators lived right beside them?

Chile, Argentina, Guatemala...

The US doesn't care if people are dictators or not. Period. Just like the Euros didn't care back in the day. Hopefully the US will eventually get over itself the way the Euros were forced to.

	18-02-2003 12:24									#169
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AND WE ALL KNOW IRAQ IS THE REAL THREAT TO THE US.

	18-02-2003 12:28									#170
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NK wasn't a real threat to the US until a few months ago

	18-02-2003 12:31									#171
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so we reason with the madman(Kim) who can and will hurt us but kill the madman(Saddam) who never bothers us?

	18-02-2003 12:39									#172
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I don't agree with reasoning with Kim. I don't think we should make deals with him anymore. We never should have.

	18-02-2003 12:47									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: The ME is no more difficult than the Koreas. AAMOF, it is a damn sight simpler. quote: No, actually it isn't. And I have no clue what that abbreviation means...

Own Goal protection on. As A Matter Of Fact...

But really, you think dealing with some yokels in a desert with oil is easier than dealing with NK and the Chinese in a game of global brinksmanship that could ignite into several hundreds of million dead? That is very curious. How do you come by that opinion?

quote: quote: btw, Euro softness on dictators is Euro softness on dictators. They have a history of not being effective in handeling them prior to the lid being blown off. quote: What a crap observation. The Euro powers were a hell of a lot more proactive against, say, Hitler than the US was. They were simply more willing to use force when they had more force to use. Just like the US. Both show remarkable lack of judgment as to when force is required and when they should keep their hands off.

Bwaaaa haaaa haaaaa.

At the time the Americans didn't think that Europe was thier business. When they did decide Hitler was thier business, they were fairly effective, wouldn't you say? How did the French do?

More willing to use force? Are you talking about the Euros? Are you sure?

As far as judgement as to when to use force or not when confronting a hostile state, I'd say the US did a f*ck of a good job in defeating the SU without incinerating most of the planet. Maybe the French could have done the same in '37 with Hitler, or the EU in the '90s with Milosovik. Oh sh*t, I forgot, the Euros would not know how to handle a clear danger until the bombs start to fall, and even then they may try to ignore it.

quote: [q]And where was this supposed US willingness to get rid of dictators when the dicators lived right beside them? Chile, Argentina, Guatemala... The US doesn't care if people are dictators or not. Period. Just like the Euros didn't care back in the day. Hopefully the US will eventually get over itself the way the Euros were forced to. [q]

Blah blah blah, Cry me a Cold War river. Like the French did all sorts of good things in Algeria in the 50's and 60's.

And AAMOF, yeah, those bad guys were our guys. They were there to make sure that people worse than them did not take power. Was it nice? No, but neither was the prospect of losing the Cold War. Which, I'll point out again, the Yanks won.

	18-02-2003 12:52									#174
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?

No ****. The French and British kept dreaming they still had an empire into the 60s.

"Cry me a cold war river"



Okay there. We'll just discount the actions of the US in Latin America through 5/6 of its existence as a superpower because those were somehow necessary to defend aganst what? Soviet expansion in Europe?

Elected leaders were tossed out and tyrants were put in their place. The US lost its grip on the moral high ground within a few months of Hiroshima...

	18-02-2003 12:54									#175
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NYE the crass, performing the usual debate fallacies....

	18-02-2003 13:00									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger ? No ****. The French and British kept dreaming they still had an empire into the 60s. "Cry me a cold war river" Okay there. We'll just discount the actions of the US in Latin America through 5/6 of its existence as a superpower because those were somehow necessary to defend aganst what? Soviet expansion in Europe? Elected leaders were tossed out and tyrants were put in their place. The US lost its grip on the moral high ground within a few months of Hiroshima...

Gee, I don't know. Maybe Castro and the Cuban Missile Crisis had some small effect on the attitudes of the govt of the United States. Do ya think?

Even before that the followers of the various Internationals had attracted the attentions of the governments of the West. You think we should have ignored them?

You think the Cold War was just about Europe? That is very rich. Are you joking?

	18-02-2003 13:09									#177
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So Castro's ascension in 58/59 explains US intervention in Guatemala in 1954? Or tolerance for dictators in LA in the late 40s and early 50s?

They've retarded the democratization of a continent for half a century just because they could.

You're right. While Europe may have a "do-nothing" attitude towards dictators, the US is much better in that it actively aids them.

	18-02-2003 13:10									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger The US lost its grip on the moral high ground within a few months of Hiroshima...

Yes, that was short lived

	18-02-2003 13:12									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So Castro's ascension in 58/59 explains US intervention in Guatemala in 1954? Or tolerance for dictators in LA in the late 40s and early 50s? They've retarded the democratization of a continent for half a century just because they could. You're right. While Europe may have a "do-nothing" attitude towards dictators, the US is much better in that it actively aids them.

hey

europe actively aids them as much as possible

Jon Miller

	18-02-2003 13:28									#180
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My my, this thread is getting jacked, isn't it. Frogger doesn't have a leg to stand on vis-a-vis American vs European treatment of threats to peace, so it's off to South America we go to show that the Yanks are nasty brutes.

Guess what? It doesn't freaking matter. Yes, the Yanks treat the Americas as thier sand box. Nothing new in that. Look up a guy called Munroe and read forward from there.

Did the Yanks promote and support a lot of less than savory regimes? Yep. Why exactly did they do that? Commercial interests? Anti Communist efforts? Some of both I'd bet.

But that all doesn't mean sheet. We are talking about a regime that is threatening nuclear destruction unless they get thier fuel oil and what should be done about it. We're talking about what the proper response is to madmen like that. What do you want the world to do, kitty? Give it to him?