18-02-2003 23:30									#151
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Transpotation would be more expensive, but that's what subsidies are for.

Are you out of your mind?

You can say "subsidies" glibly, but it would cost you (American taxpayers) tens of billions of dollars a year.

	18-02-2003 23:31									#152
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Transpotation would be more expensive, but that's what subsidies are for.

Completely unrealistic. Reminds me of Rumsfield's "diplomacy"

	18-02-2003 23:32									#153
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More like 10-15 %.

A good article on the budget. US figures say 15-17%, but the Soviets themselves came out with wildly higher numbers. 1/3. 1/2.

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russi...era/sect_05.htm

	18-02-2003 23:33									#154
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 LOL. Actually that's what the US tries to do

We seem to be better at it though given the Eastern European reaction to France's threats and insults.

	18-02-2003 23:36									#155
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Not really. You only got a letter after all and that's all you could get

	18-02-2003 23:37									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Are you out of your mind? You can say "subsidies" glibly, but it would cost you (American taxpayers) tens of billions of dollars a year.

Tens of billions is not really that much. It could be done. I'm not saying it will, but it could. Really we did it in the cold war a few times. Give countries aid and give them special access to your markets.

	18-02-2003 23:37									#157
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Apparently we got more that that if Monk is correct.

	18-02-2003 23:38									#158
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You could never compete with the EU.

	18-02-2003 23:40									#159
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Apparently we got more that that if Monk is correct.

I'm always up for entertainment. What do you think you've got?

	18-02-2003 23:42									#160
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Dan:

"A good article on the budget. US figures say 15-17%, but the Soviets themselves came out with wildly higher numbers. 1/3. 1/2."

Looks implausible. The US overestimated USSR GDP somewhat, but when we look at around 1990, I thinkUS GDP was about 5 trillion $ with 300 billion for defense. USSR should have been 1.5-2 trillion. A third to half of that would make for 500 billion - 1 trillion $. That sounds totally unrealistic, given the actual strength of the soviet military compared to the west.

	18-02-2003 23:49									#161
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler 1. Andropov was far from a redical reformer but he saw the needs for some reforms. Gorbachev was his protegee IIRC. "Because they were already spending 40% of their GNP on the military." More like 10-15 %. Where do you get such a big number?

The Central Intelligence Agency estimates the Soviet defense burden at 15 to 17 percent of gross national product, while a European specialist puts it at 22 to 30 percent.(7)

(7) Central Intelligence Agency and Defense Intelligence Agency, "The Soviet Economy in 1988: Gorbachev Changes Course," Report to the Joint Economic Committee, April 14, 1989, p. 18; Aslund, Gorbachev's Struggle, p. 15; see also Philip Hanson, "A Defense Spending Mystery," Report on the USSR, April 21, 1989, pp. 18-20; Michael Dobbs, "Gorbachev Bares Budget for Military," Washington Post, May 31, 1989.

Keep in mind that those are 1988 estimates when their military spending was decreasing. Also remember that money goes to support the military that isnt direct military spending. 40% was the number in my memory from when I cared about such stuff (early 1980's). It may be a little high.

	18-02-2003 23:53									#162
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I wasn't aware of serious estimates that go beyond 20 %. It's entirely possible, I just think it's more of an outlyer.

"Also remember that money goes to support the military that isnt direct military spending."

The macroeconomic defense burden should account for that all.

	18-02-2003 23:57									#163
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That sounds totally unrealistic, given the actual strength of the soviet military compared to the west.

Well, the Soviet Union put up about 3x the military space hardware that the US did. Not that it was of such high quality, but still. If this is any indication of what was happening in other areas...

Suffice to say, a real increase of 3% on any significant base in a time of decreasing GNP would be excruciating.

	19-02-2003 00:01									#164
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You could never compete with the EU.

You mean we could never compete with France and Germany. Please, stop. Their economy is puny in comparison.

	19-02-2003 00:03									#165
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"If this is any indication of what was happening in other areas..."

I'm really going on rough memories here, but I think eg there were 50.000 soviet tanks vs 20-25.000 of NATO. A lot of the soviet ones were mothballed old designs. And the USSR concentrated on tanks. Having twice the western defense spending should have given a much larger mass of modern tanks, should it not?

	19-02-2003 00:05									#166
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You mean we could never compete with France and Germany. Please, stop. Their economy is puny in comparison.

No. I mean the EU

	19-02-2003 00:05									#167
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Having twice the western defense spending should have given a much larger mass of modern tanks, should it not?

Not if it's sh!tty steel and bad parts and those 50,000 had to be replaced at a good clip.

	19-02-2003 00:06									#168
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And yes, you'd have a hard time competing with just Germany and France in eastern Europe, too

	19-02-2003 00:07									#169
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You mean we could never compete with France and Germany. Please, stop. Their economy is puny in comparison.

Actually, their economy when combined is something like half as big as yours. And they're right next door.

Duncan, you just plain don't have as much to offer as the EU. And you and I both know that Lithuania's 300 noncombat troops for the Gulf and Bulgaria's murmuring of support aren't worth what it would cost to even come close.

The eastern euros are the ones with the most on the line here, not France and Germany (and the littler sh*ts who agree with them).

	19-02-2003 00:10									#170
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Actually the little sh*ts think they aren't anti-US enough

	19-02-2003 00:10									#171
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Actually, their economy when combined is something like half as big as yours.

1/3rd, rather.

	19-02-2003 00:13									#172
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BTW 3 of the "pro US" east European countries (FYROM, Albania and Bulgaria) are totally dependent on one little sh*t's economy to live. France and Germany don't even need to bother.

	19-02-2003 00:14									#173
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Dan:

"Not if it's sh!tty steel and bad parts and those 50,000 had to be replaced at a good clip."

Not sure what the point is. Low quality would allow even larger quantities of the older tanks. Also, the defense and GNP estimates are PPP based, so low quality would reduce the spending level (or get more tanks out of an equal spending level).

	19-02-2003 00:23									#174
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW 3 of the "pro US" east European countries (FYROM, Albania and Bulgaria) are totally dependent on one little sh*t's economy to live. France and Germany don't even need to bother.

Don't you ever get tired of kissing French ass? I mean really paiktis, don't you have any reservations about this at all. Or did you skip all the history lessons of French and German attempts at dominating Europe? I do suppose that after all those years under Turk rule, Greece only feels comfortable when it is a province and not the center of power.

	19-02-2003 00:30									#175
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paiktis22 is willing to accept rule from any country, including totalitarian communist countries, if that country is not the US.

	19-02-2003 00:35									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Actually, their economy when combined is something like half as big as yours. And they're right next door. Duncan, you just plain don't have as much to offer as the EU. And you and I both know that Lithuania's 300 noncombat troops for the Gulf and Bulgaria's murmuring of support aren't worth what it would cost to even come close. The eastern euros are the ones with the most on the line here, not France and Germany (and the littler sh*ts who agree with them).

frogger,

I'm just saying it could be done. We could make Eastern Europe our very good friends and Frances enemies if we wanted to. I admit it's not worth it, because France can never be what the USSR was to us.

	19-02-2003 00:42									#177
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Actually I have already said that Greece considers France's position as too mild

	19-02-2003 00:45									#178
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If we were France you'd probably be dogging nukes by now
AH but it's worth the wait.

	19-02-2003 00:49									#179
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK paiktis22 is willing to accept rule from any country, including totalitarian communist countries, if that country is not the US.

Actually paiktis likes Greece just as it is now. A democracy looking out for its interests and not forgetting its history.
Forgive me for not wanting any more US juntas
And paiktis enjoys Greece not being amongst the exceptions in european antiamericanism. I always knew others would see the light

	19-02-2003 00:51									#180
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 If we were France you'd probably be dogging nukes by now AH but it's worth the wait.

If you were trying to make decisions instead of just being the lap dogs, you would be at the center of a nuclear waste zone. That or the western province of Turkey. Face it, Greeks are destined be instraments used by other people. It's sad that you have lost the legacy of Sparta and Athens and been reduced to pepertual second powers.