21-02-2003 02:08									#151
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quote: Because those small provinces are a minority. Surely you must agree that it's not fair to have two provinces where your vote counts (Ontario, Quebec) and all of the other provinces are constantly along for the ride?

This makes no sense. Why do you think any politician worth his salt would care more about winning a seat in Quebec or Ontario than he would about winning a seat in BC or Alberta?

Chrétien would be just as happy to win seats anywhere in Canada.

quote: Yeah, that's much worse than having the federal government do the same thing to you. Tell me, what has the Quebec provincial government done on the scale of the NEP?

Did Trudeau tell Albertans that they weren't actually Canadians and were living here on sufferance?

Hah. Let's see: school closures that target English school boards, ditto with hospital closures, the abrogation of our right to free speech...

As compared to regulations on the oil industry.

	21-02-2003 02:10									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: House of Commons and Executive branch The executive branch isn't a body, and it's composed entirely of those whom the PM selects. In Canadian political structure it's an extension of the legislature. Try not to apply American political theory to Canadian politics...

I realize that, but the PM and his cabinet are effectively their own branch.

	21-02-2003 02:12									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger This makes no sense. Why do you think any politician worth his salt would care more about winning a seat in Quebec or Ontario than he would about winning a seat in BC or Alberta? Chrétien would be just as happy to win seats anywhere in Canada.

Are you intentionally being obtuse about this?
Alberta is expendable vote wise. That's why the Liberals didn't even bother to campaign here last election.

Of course Chretien would be happy to win seats anywhere, but realistically all he needs is Ontario/Quebec support and the odd seat anywhere else. That's what he gets, and that gives him control over the entire country even though 40% of the popular vote was for him...

quote: Did Trudeau tell Albertans that they weren't actually Canadians and were living here on sufferance?

I don't think so, but I wouldn't care either way. In fact I may think highly of him for having cajones if he did that.

quote: As compared to regulations on the oil industry.

You compared some school closures to the NEP, and dismissed the NEP like it was nothing.

Man, people wonder why Alberta is upset with the rest of the country. Clueless...

	21-02-2003 02:13									#154
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Especially regulations which were repealed after 5 years because the Albertans finally managed to get their act together and compromise enough to elect Mulroney...

	21-02-2003 02:15									#155
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quote: Of course Chretien would be happy to win seats anywhere, but realistically all he needs is Ontario/Quebec support and the odd seat anywhere else. That's what he gets, and that gives him control over the entire country even though 40% of the popular vote was for him...

Fine. Let's split up Ontario into 3 provinces sweetheart. Would that make things more palatable to you?

	21-02-2003 02:18									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Fine. Let's split up Ontario into 3 provinces sweetheart. Would that make things more palatable to you?

I'm really not sure if you're joking around about completely missing the point, or if you're being serious...

I don't care about the semantics of provincial boundaries, I care about political clout. People in central Canada freely dictate what the people in eastern and western Canada have to do. It's true that the majority of people live in central Canada, but does that mean everyone else doesn't count?

	21-02-2003 02:31									#157
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quote: I don't care about the semantics of provincial boundaries, I care about political clout. People in central Canada freely dictate what the people in eastern and western Canada have to do. It's true that the majority of people live in central Canada, but does that mean everyone else doesn't count?

Your "Central Canada" is as much a semantic construct as the provincial boundary is. If you think that the average Montrealer, the average Torontonian, the average rural Quebecer, the average non-Toronto Ontario industrial urbanite, and the average rural Ontarian all have the same concerns then you're off the deep end.

The fact is that what the Liberal party has done is find an effective compromise between 4 of those 5 political viewpoints, in addition to getting a lot of individual seats in other provinces.

Alberta as a political bloc has failed to compromise enough to field a credible collection of political blocs. Due to its size Alberta only represents 1 basic viewpoint. This cuts both ways; if Alberta was bigger it would have more of a voice, but most likely it would also present a more varied voice.

Right now all you're saying is that you aren't willing to compromise, and then you're complaining that nobody else wants to vote for the party which stands for, in most people's minds "Alberta first"

Ontarians don't vote for the BQ for a very good reason: because it's called the BQ. The CA is only slightly less chauvinist in its viewpoint, and has only slightly more of a non-albertan following.

	21-02-2003 02:32									#158
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What is provincial politics like in Alberta?

I assume the vast majority of the seats are in Calgary and Edmonton. So do your rural voters complain about their voice being ignored?

	21-02-2003 02:45									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader What is provincial politics like in Alberta? I assume the vast majority of the seats are in Calgary and Edmonton. So do your rural voters complain about their voice being ignored?

The people in rural Alberta have more say per person than those in Urban Alberta.

It doesn't really matter, though, they all vote for Klein too.

	21-02-2003 02:52									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Your "Central Canada" is as much a semantic construct as the provincial boundary is. If you think that the average Montrealer, the average Torontonian, the average rural Quebecer, the average non-Toronto Ontario industrial urbanite, and the average rural Ontarian all have the same concerns then you're off the deep end.

This is, again, more needless semantics. Of course not everyone in central Canada votes the same way. It doesn't matter, though, in this system. Whatever they collectively vote for rules the entire nation.

quote: Due to its size Alberta only represents 1 basic viewpoint. This cuts both ways; if Alberta was bigger it would have more of a voice, but most likely it would also present a more varied voice.

The Liberals get lots of votes from Alberta, the problem is there's almost always more CA/PC votes in the same riding which renders the Liberal votes useless.

quote: Right now all you're saying is that you aren't willing to compromise

Where am I saying that at all? If I remember correctly, I'm the one offering a compromise with only a minor part of the government formed by equal representation, and you're the one shouting "No no no no" and wanting strictly first past the post representation...

quote: and then you're complaining that nobody else wants to vote for the party which stands for, in most people's minds "Alberta first"

I'm not sure where you're pulling this. I would never vote CA.

	21-02-2003 02:57									#161
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quote: You should have gotten PEI's lawyers.

-Frogger

Cutting the CPR is a symbolic gesture of distaste to the West, like Trudeau's finger.

quote: I don't think so, but I wouldn't care either way. In fact I may think highly of him for having cajones if he did that.

Asher! I can't believe you forgot Trudeau's finger!

quote: The CA is only slightly less chauvinist in its viewpoint, and has only slightly more of a non-albertan following.

How is the CA 'chauvinist?'

They run more female candidate than our benighted Liberal party.

	21-02-2003 02:59									#162
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quote: This is, again, more needless semantics. Of course not everyone in central Canada votes the same way. It doesn't matter, though, in this system. Whatever they collectively vote for rules the entire nation.

And whatever BC, Alberta and Toronto would vote for would rule the entire nation too. So find a compromise that will be acceptable to those three regions.

"Central Canada" has been willing to compromise on what party they vote for. The Liberals have accepted everybody from Paul Marin on the right to Alan Rock on the left, and put a platform forward which is acceptable to a broad range of people.

You're the one who's stuck on this semantic difference between the residents of one province and the residents of another. If the CA put forward a platform that was more palatable to Montreal than the Liberal's platform was, then Montreal would vote CA. You've got to piece together a coalition of regional interests the way the Liberals have done.

Stop whining that the current system discriminates against you (which it most certainly does not) and get cracking.

The current system discriminates against extremism. Period. And right now, the CA is extremist in terms of the Canadian electorate. So is the NDP.

	21-02-2003 03:00									#163
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nice signature obiwan

Anyways, I'm just a dumbass American who doesn't know (or care) about Canadian politics.

My only comment is:
Any civil war in Canada would probably have more yellow snowballs than bullets.

	21-02-2003 03:01									#164
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quote: Where am I saying that at all? If I remember correctly, I'm the one offering a compromise with only a minor part of the government formed by equal representation, and you're the one shouting "No no no no" and wanting strictly first past the post representation...

"Equal representation" my ass. You're just trying to tell the average voter in Toronto that their vote should entitle them to less representation than some potato farmer in PEI's.

	21-02-2003 03:02									#165
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quote: How is the CA 'chauvinist?' They run more female candidate than our benighted Liberal party.

Look up the word chauvinist in a dictionary. Just because most people use it in conjunction with "male" doesn't mean that that's the only meaning.

	21-02-2003 03:05									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And whatever BC, Alberta and Toronto would vote for would rule the entire nation too. So find a compromise that will be acceptable to those three regions.

This is wonderful.
"If only you guys would compromise!"
Seriously, fantastic stuff.
It's wonderful in the sense of irony, hypocrisy, and downright ridicilous in how irrelevant it is...

Alberta: "The system needs reform!"
Canada: "No, it doesn't! You guys need to compromise, damnit!"

quote: You're the one who's stuck on this semantic difference between the residents of one province and the residents of another.

Look at the voting results. It's not a semantic, it's the reality. If one specific region of the country has enough population, they control the rest of the country, and everyone else becomes expendible. It's a harsh reality... You just may not see it as such when you live in the region.

quote: Stop whining that the current system discriminates against you (which it most certainly does not) and get cracking.

It doesn't discriminate against me. I've never said that.
The problem is the system discriminates against anyone who isn't in Ontario and Quebec in the BigPicture(tm).

Sure, you can list why you think the CA isn't getting a majority government, and I'd agree with most of it, but that's NOT THE POINT. You shouldn't have to be in the majority to have a say in how your country works. Sorry, that's just what I think...

	21-02-2003 03:05									#167
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quote: I'm not sure where you're pulling this. I would never vote CA.

So tell your fellow Albertans to vote PC instead. If they could grab the CA's seats and then combine them with the seats won by the Libs due to vote-splitting then you'd have a viable political force. Until then, realise that it's not the electoral system emasculating the right; it's the right emasculating itself.

	21-02-2003 03:06									#168
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quote: "Equal representation" my ass. You're just trying to tell the average voter in Toronto that their vote should entitle them to less representation than some potato farmer in PEI's.

Yes -- in ONE form of the government.

It sure as hell beats telling people in Alberta that their vote should entitle them to ZERO representation in the entire ****ing federal government, doncha think?

	21-02-2003 03:08									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So tell your fellow Albertans to vote PC instead. If they could grab the CA's seats and then combine them with the seats won by the Libs due to vote-splitting then you'd have a viable political force. Until then, realise that it's not the electoral system emasculating the right; it's the right emasculating itself.

That's not how it works. I realize how incredibly ****ing easy for you and Tingkai to tell us how simple it is, simply get everyone in the province to vote for the same party ( ) but surely you're not that silly...

Please tell me you're joking and you're really not insane...

The PC and the CA are not the same party. Telling everyone to vote for one or the other won't work. Sorry.

	21-02-2003 03:10									#170
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Isn't it funny that the people saying Alberta should "compromise" are the same people who are refusing to compromise on anything that would ruin their province's iron fist on the nation.

	21-02-2003 03:12									#171
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quote: This is wonderful. "If only you guys would compromise!" Seriously, fantastic stuff. It's wonderful in the sense of irony, hypocrisy, and downright ridicilous in how irrelevant it is... Alberta: "The system needs reform!" Canada: "No, it doesn't! You guys need to compromise, damnit!"

You do need to compromise. If Toronto voted as a bloc for a party that nobody else likes they'd get screwed over too. They're too smart to do that, so they compromise. Right now the PCs are in the doghouse, so Toronto votes Liberal. It does this knowing that the Liberals aren't everything they want, but are a damn sight better than having a government composed of the CA or NDP.


The endless infighting by the right wing simply acts to allow the Liberals to win every time. And instead of trying to fix the problem with the right's strategy, you whine that the system discriminates against you.

I vote NDP, and wouldn't vote Liberal unless something major changes. I do this with eyes wide open, knowing that this means my vote will never (except in extraordinary circumstances like a minority government) count to the government. To get me to vote for them they would have to change their platform so dramatically that they'd lose 10 votes on the other side.

Right now all of Alberta is doing the same thing, except they apparently haven't figured out how the system works yet.

I thought you folks were supposed to be good at math to count up all the oil drums...

	21-02-2003 03:15									#172
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KrazyHorse...please, stay with the thread topic.
This isn't about voting strategy, and how you and Tingkai have some kind of absurd theory about how easy it is to organize everyone in the province and force them to vote for a party. Clearly you've been dabbling in special herbs, but that's not the point.

The point is, it doesn't matter who Alberta votes for. Alberta votes OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of the CA, it doesn't mean anything. Whoever forms the majority government in Canada controls everything. Everything!

Whoever wins Ontario and Quebec forms the majority government.

That's the issue. Not voting strategies, not specific parties, none of that is relevant to this debate. You and Tingkai always try to make it relevant because you both go off onto ridiculous tirades about vote coordinatation over 3 million people like it's a plausible idea, and like it would change anything.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

	21-02-2003 03:15									#173
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quote: nice signature obiwan

Sava, it almost got me restricted by Ming...

You were right on the money when you said that. It's a great cut&paste reminder to academics who boast of their qualifications.

Frogger:

chauvinist:

Etymology: French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Théodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)
Date: 1851
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged

How do either apply to the CA? The Liberals are also guilty of patronage, of 'undue partiality'.

	21-02-2003 03:22									#174
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Ok, you guys keep getting lost in pointless debates.

Is the bottom line: Asher wants the senate to be a check on the power of parliament. Make it elected, and by a different manner than the house seats.

Frogger thinks the senate is useless too, but thinks reform is unecessary.

	21-02-2003 03:24									#175
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quote: Sava, it almost got me restricted by Ming... You were right on the money when you said that. It's a great cut&paste reminder to academics who boast of their qualifications.

Glad to see you fought the power

That's why, for as big of a mouth as I have, I never lose sight of my own ignorance. It's a Socratic philosophy.

	21-02-2003 03:25									#176
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Number 2.

The liberals Run candidates in every single riding in the country, and make a decent showing in all of them (minus, perhaps, some of Alberta's). The CA runs 50 or 60 serious candidates and 240 sacrificial lambs.

The Liberals go where the votes take them, the CA remains, in the eyes of most of this country, an "Alberta first" party.

	21-02-2003 03:27									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Ok, you guys keep getting lost in pointless debates. Is the bottom line: Asher wants the senate to be a check on the power of parliament. Make it elected, and by a different manner than the house seats.

quote: Frogger thinks the senate is useless too, but thinks reform is unecessary.

That's a very Quebec attitude, for all of the talk I hear about KH being different than the average Quebeccer.

	21-02-2003 03:28									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Ok, you guys keep getting lost in pointless debates. Is the bottom line: Asher wants the senate to be a check on the power of parliament. Make it elected, and by a different manner than the house seats. Frogger thinks the senate is useless too, but thinks reform is unecessary.

Nope. I already presented a pretty good, (in my mind) vision for reform of the Senate. It was also supposed to be a check on Commons and was to be elected in a different way than the Commons is. Scroll back to page 5 or 6.

If I had my druthers I'd just toss the Senate and use a unicameral Parliament, but most people don't seem to agree with me so I came up with a plan.

	21-02-2003 03:33									#179
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quote: This isn't about voting strategy, and how you and Tingkai have some kind of absurd theory about how easy it is to organize everyone in the province and force them to vote for a party. Clearly you've been dabbling in special herbs, but that's not the point. The point is, it doesn't matter who Alberta votes for. Alberta votes OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of the CA, it doesn't mean anything. Whoever forms the majority government in Canada controls everything. Everything!

So your solution is:

1) To have a senate. Check. Got that. Proposed a more competent and effective senate, if you forgot

2) To have this senate be elected. Check. Ditto with above

3) To elect this senate differently than the Commons is elected. Check again. If you schecked my proposal you'd notice that the distribution of seats with a proportional representation system of election would be pretty different than the current distribution of the Commons

4) To elect this senate in a way which favours people living in small provinces at the expense of people living in large provinces. Hold the phone. Not check, nothing at all. Too bad. No way. Uh uh.

	21-02-2003 03:35									#180
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quote: 4) To elect this senate in a way which favours people living in small provinces at the expense of people living in large provinces. Hold the phone. Not check, nothing at all. Too bad. No way. Uh uh.

So in other words, your "solution" is nothing but a duplicate of the house??

How can it be a check on balance if the same people can control both all the time?

Proportional representation is better than what we have now, but unfortunately would be even more unproductive than an equal senate.