20-02-2003 04:57									#61
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Ok. That was a poor way to put the thought.

Once BC joins the US- the Canadians mills contribute to the US economy rather than the Canadian. If inefficient mills in Georgia go out of business, the American economy improves simply because they now profit from BC mills directly.

If BC is not a part of the US and the inefficient US mills in Georgia go out of business the US economy hurts because of the jobs lost. This is why they want the tariffs up so they can modernise the US mills to compete with the Canadians on their own turf.

	20-02-2003 04:59									#62
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I don't think the issue was ever the efficiency of US mills in Georgia.

Is that what they tell you in BC?

	20-02-2003 05:06									#63
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Other reasons for sure.

We're very suspicious about market-based pricing, and the US buying all the mills here in BC.

Why make this a condition to lower the tariffs? Right now, we've just told them off, and are trying to make money with an anchor dropped.

What do they tell you in Alberta?

	20-02-2003 06:22									#64
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Alberta should stay in Confederation. It offers a great buffer to the wingnuts even further east.

There was a time that there was a whole lot of nothing in between British Colombia and the Red River Valley area that eventually became Manitoba. Alberta is very much an artificial construct just like Saskatchewan.

So Alberta 'nationalism' does strike my funnybone. Besides, in the unlikely event that Alberta both separated and was welcomed with open arms by the Americans, they would soon find that as a province they would have had a whole lot more power and influence than they would have as a very minor state.

	20-02-2003 06:39									#65
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Any part of Canada which manages to seperate could join the US, of this I have no doubt. The politics and business could take a hike, the people would want it. However the US wouldn't involve itself in any Canadian civil war imo, even if it meant we could fight French.

	20-02-2003 07:57									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There aren't separation numbers, but alienation: quote: According to a January, 2001, poll, Alberta has surpassed Quebec as the hotbed ofalienation -- 47% to 30% quote: Albertans already contribute more than any other Canadians to the cost of maintaining a unified nation -- $2,600 per capita annually for transfers and equalization versus $1,800 per second-place Ontarian -- but receive measurably less influence over federal policy. Indeed, federal policies on not only the environment, but also on social programs, language, immigration, criminal justice, firearms and a host of other issues, are not just opposed by most Albertans, but are offensive to them.

Where is this from What's the source?

	20-02-2003 07:59									#67
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quote: they would soon find that as a province they would have had a whole lot more power and influence than they would have as a very minor state.

This isn't necessarily true.
We can elect 2 senators in the US. We can elect 0 in Canada.

The entire power structure of the Canadian government (100% of it) comes from whichever party forms the majority in the house.

So I guess what I'm saying is, we'd sadly get more power with 2 senators and a couple of congressman in the US than we'd ever get in Canada. Pathetic, no?

Edit: Not to mention, we wouldn't necessarily need more influence since the US is politically much more similar than the rest of Canada. Kyoto, for instance, would be a non-issue...

	20-02-2003 08:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Where is this from What's the source?

January 29, 2001 article in the National Post called "Alienation's New Hotbed"

I can't find a specific copy of it online, so if you're really interested go to a library and find it, but it's referenced in several places, including: http://www.irpp.org/po/archive/apr01/gunter.pdf

	20-02-2003 08:16									#69
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But there isn't much separist sentiment here in Ontario.

There is in Toronto. Ontario's Conservatives are screwing it over.

It's too bad we couldn't convince more of those Ontarians to vote Alliance, because this would actually implement some of the reforms necessary to keep BC and Alberta in confederation.

LOL. If the Alliance is elected, there won't be a Confederation anymore. They already think that "Her Majesty" in "Her Majesty's Royal Opposition" is King George.

Trees are a pretty worthless resource, and the US isn't very fond of you guys for your lumber industry as it stands.

Excuse me. You aren't fond of us? We are not the ones who are violating NAFTA by installing protectionist measures.

However the US wouldn't involve itself in any Canadian civil war imo, even if it meant we could fight French.

Civil Wars are barbaric. In Canada, the separatists only need to win in a referendum to have their way.

January 29, 2001 article in the National Post called "Alienation's New Hotbed"

The National Post *gurgle* *wurgle* eat *burgle* *furgle* crap *surgle* *gurgle* *murgle* up *burgle* *hurgle* disgusting. Is there an article about this in a real newspaper?

	20-02-2003 08:20									#70
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Excuse me. You aren't fond of us? We are not the ones who are violating NAFTA by installing protectionist measures.

What's with the you/us attitude?
Does the flag confuse you next to my name?

quote: The National Post *gurgle* *wurgle* eat *burgle* *furgle* crap *surgle* *gurgle* *murgle* up *burgle* *hurgle* disgusting. Is there an article about this in a real newspaper?

Give me a break...are you really going to pull that crap? You know the "plug my ears and pretend it's not happening until my Liberal newspapers wake up to the fact that not everybody likes them"? It's trite, old, and stupid.

If you wanna find more, you can look it up yourself.

I do wonder why you find it so hard to believe 47% of Albertans feel alienated? And this is pre-Kyoto too.

	20-02-2003 08:32									#71
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Snooze, the usual silly political game. Alberta doesn't get any say because it has no people. End of story.

	20-02-2003 08:35									#72
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What's with the you/us attitude?
Does the flag confuse you next to my name?

I was using "you" in plural as a way to refer to the Americans. You, Asher, are one of "us".

I do wonder why you find it so hard to believe 47% of Albertans feel alienated?

I don't find it hard to believe. After all, I am basing my new-found stereotypical views of Albertans on you, Asher. I'm just saying that the National Post is not a reputable newspaper. If you want to quote a conservative newspaper, could you use Globe & Mail instead?

	20-02-2003 08:42									#73
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quote: I don't find it hard to believe. After all, I am basing my new-found stereotypical views of Albertans on you, Asher. I'm just saying that the National Post is not a reputable newspaper. If you want to quote a conservative newspaper, could you use Globe & Mail instead?

I didn't quote it because it's conservative, I quoted it because it was cited as a source for something relevant.

I'm slightly annoyed that you're being the very typical Liberal for bashing a source rather than the information it contains, though.

And to play your games, if you want to refute it, could you please cite ANY source? It's incredibly annoying for you to refute it/question it and offer NOTHING in return.

UR:

quote: Snooze, the usual silly political game. Alberta doesn't get any say because it has no people. End of story.

10% of the population doesn't mean we get 0 say. Especially considering all of the money this province brings in.

It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing thing.

	20-02-2003 08:48									#74
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Out of curiousity, why isn't the National Post a "reputable newspaper"?

Is it because it started its life off as the "Financial Post" and businesses are evil?

	20-02-2003 08:50									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Asher This isn't necessarily true. We can elect 2 senators in the US. We can elect 0 in Canada.

How many does Puerto Rico elect?

	20-02-2003 08:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man How many does Puerto Rico elect?

They seem to like it like that though. We've offered them statehood before.

	20-02-2003 08:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man How many does Puerto Rico elect?

Puerto Rico is a US territory, not state.
And as a US territory, it's given far more power over its region than a typical state. Which is way more autonomy than we'd have under Canada.

	20-02-2003 09:00									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher UR: 10% of the population doesn't mean we get 0 say. Especially considering all of the money this province brings in. It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing thing.

It depends on the political system then. If the province didn't vote for the Libs and they are now in power, it's pretty hard to convince them to be good to you.

The only thing you can do is to attract more people to the province. I am sure Alberta can do that with all its oil money.

	20-02-2003 09:00									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Puerto Rico is a US territory, not state. And as a US territory, it's given far more power over its region than a typical state. Which is way more autonomy than we'd have under Canada.

I was just trying to point out that Alberta, much like Quebec, seems to think that they can walk out and the US will welcome them with open arms and give them everything they want.

Alaska and Hawaii were 'part of' the US for a long time before they became states, with all the rights that go with that.

	20-02-2003 09:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It depends on the political system then. If the province didn't vote for the Libs and they are now in power, it's pretty hard to convince them to be good to you.

Yeah, no kidding.
Tingkai's solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal. This way, he reasons, everyone is important! I still laugh at that.

quote: The only thing you can do is to attract more people to the province. I am sure Alberta can do that with all its oil money.

You're right -- which is why Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada, and Alberta has lead the country in immigration from other provinces now for several years running. Unfortunately, as I've said before in this thread, this doesn't give us any more say. The Liberals know Alberta's population is booming, and that's why they're not redrawing election ridings. We've got a lot more people, no more say. It's funny how that works.

quote: I was just trying to point out that Alberta, much like Quebec, seems to think that they can walk out and the US will welcome them with open arms and give them everything they want. Alaska and Hawaii were 'part of' the US for a long time before they became states, with all the rights that go with that.

I wasn't sure Quebec was sure of it? I can pretty much guarantee they'd adopt Alberta as a state if we asked, why wouldn't they? They'd love to get their hands on a lot more domestic oil.

But I still think a US territory (like Peurto Rico) is better. We can adopt the US currency and take advantage of the US military, while having a ton of autonomy. Statehood isn't a necessity.

	20-02-2003 09:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I wasn't sure Quebec was sure of it? I can pretty much guarantee they'd adopt Alberta as a state if we asked,

Not unless you work for the State Department

quote: They'd love to get their hands on a lot more domestic oil.

Think about it. Alberta has no sea frontier. Oil is a ***** to ship by plane. The US and Canada are the only market. Alberta'd sell them the oil based on whatever deal the US saw fit to offer, and be grateful.

	20-02-2003 09:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Think about it. Alberta has no sea frontier. Oil is a ***** to ship by plane.

Please tell me this is a joke...
There are pipelines that go places. Yes, even to coasts. Which aren't too far away...

quote: The US and Canada are the only market. Alberta'd sell them the oil based on whatever deal the US saw fit to offer, and be grateful.

The US knows that Canada's oil supply is anything but guaranteed.
See: NEP, Kyoto...

NAFTA helped a lot, but it's still easier when it's part of your country.

	20-02-2003 09:27									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Please tell me this is a joke... There are pipelines that go places. Yes, even to coasts. Which aren't too far away...

Why would anyone (Canada, presumably) just let Alberta ship oil through their territory? Again, you're presuming that Alberta will just ask, and be given...

You guys have a LOT in common with Quebec... next thing, you'll want to keep the passport and walk out on your share of the debt

	20-02-2003 09:29									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Why would anyone (Canada, presumably) just let Alberta ship oil through their territory? Again, you're presuming that Alberta will just ask, and be given...

The pipelines have already been built, the deals and contracts already signed. I don't see your point?

The US also has pipelines already going through Canada, from Alaska down to Washington, I don't see where you're going with this?

	20-02-2003 09:29									#85
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Asher: The joke is that you don't understand basic politics.

I have explained the simple concept of power voting to you many times, and you still don't get it. But don't worry, we're not going to laugh at your ignorance. (although I am amazed that you continue to humilate yourself).

You really need to take a basic course about political strategy.

And don't twist my words. I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

	20-02-2003 09:32									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: The joke is that you don't understand basic politics. I have explained the simple concept of power voting to you many times, and you still don't get it. But don't worry, we're not going to laugh at your ignorance. (although I am amazed that you continue to humilate yourself). You really need to take a basic course about political strategy. And don't twist my words. I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

You have so. In a thread on Apolyton quite a while ago.

We spent about 50 posts laughing at you for it. You claimed if we voted Liberal, they'd pay attention to us, but because we never vote Liberal, they never need to listen to us.

I understand the basic politics fine, you just don't understand that I'm saying we need to change how it works. You keep making strawmen into thinking I'm explaining how the current system works, you post a bunch of LOL smilies, then ask what I'm smoking if I think the system works like that.

	20-02-2003 09:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The pipelines have already been built, the deals and contracts already signed. I don't see your point? The US also has pipelines already going through Canada, from Alaska down to Washington, I don't see where you're going with this?

The point is, the agreements that allow oil pipelines to pass through (after separation) foreign territory might get, ah, modified slightly, since Alberta's new neighbours would know they had Klein and Co. by the short ones

Again... you're constructing this scenario in the expectation that it'll all go smoothly... when there's no reason to expect it will. Few secessions do.

	20-02-2003 09:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

Heck. Don't even think of it. We tried that in BC and look at the mess we are in.

(Yes, I am aware that BC Libs and Fed Libs are different animals. )

	20-02-2003 09:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man The point is, the agreements that allow oil pipelines to pass through (after separation) foreign territory might get, ah, modified slightly, since Alberta's new neighbours would know they had Klein and Co. by the short ones Again... you're constructing this scenario in the expectation that it'll all go smoothly... when there's no reason to expect it will. Few secessions do.

You're constructing this scenerio where Canada would suddenly change its policy on foreign pipelines on the basis of Alberta seceeding, in the process putting port workers in BC out of a job all because the country is bitter for Alberta leaving.

Actually, that sounds like something Chretien just might do. It doesn't really matter, of course, since there's no shortage of oil demand in the US at all.

The vast majority of Alberta exports go directly to the US. If we were part of the US, it'd be even less of a hassle to trade with other US states, and that would more than set off any problems the jealous folks in BC may or may not cause...

	20-02-2003 09:44									#90
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Again... why would the US not drive a hard bargain with Alberta, simply because they knew Alberta had no other option?