20-02-2003 21:34									#121
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Canada's just the Empire of Ontario anyway and Ontario is just the Empire of Toronto. The Albertoamericans should be glad we haven't revealed the truth behind the CN tower. That it's actually the centre of a giant parabolic dish that will one day be used to microwave the West.

	20-02-2003 21:36									#122
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"I don't want to get off on a rant here..."

Well those emotions may feel great to express, they don't do **** to counter seraratism. I don't defend them, I share your sentiments but I suspect yours is the sort of reaction they are after in the first place. Don't play their game.

	20-02-2003 21:43									#123
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I'm not really worried about separatism as an actual possibility in the sestruction of Canada. 10 years ago I would have been.

Tingkai's comments are right on the money about Quebec. 40 years ago, liberal (not Liberal!) that I am I'd probably have voted for Quebec's independence. The separatist movement was always a dying quail. The people of Quebec were awakening politically, but at the same time they were being treated more like equals as time went on. So the number of people who were willing to vote for something new was growing, but the base of really angry people was always dropping. IMO, the threat's basically passed now.

	20-02-2003 21:46									#124
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Quebec demographics are less favourable to the option today but it still doesn't help to get angry and yell at them to shut up......

I was reminded of the rednecks in Ontario tromping on the Quebec flag before the last neverendum.

	20-02-2003 21:47									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What we should do with these stupid separatist is give them a swift kick in the butt and make them look at reality. No one is going to stop them.

We should stop catering to them, Quebec sucks $$$
in from Ottawa by being separtist. Seems Ralph wants
to get some threat/blackmail money too.

No one will miss them eithier.

	20-02-2003 21:48									#126
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If you are going to do a senate totally proportional to population, why bother ? Thats what the House of Commons is and to replicate the same regional proportions is simply duplication for no added benefit.

If you want a Senate, then the idea is that it should do something other than simply be a reflection of the House. In the US they choose to make it a place for regional represenatation and places like California and New York simply accept that they get the same number of senators as Alaska.

Canadian politics is all about Ontario and Quebec. Western Alienation ??? Try coming from the east where the economy sucks and you have no voice at all to stop it . . . where it seems that the interests of the entire region are sacrificed for a few more auto jobs in Ontrario or textile jobs in Quebec and then the federal government trys to act as if it is caring as it creates some other stupid program to " assist" the region. This is the feeling in the East where the feds have jurisdiction over the fishery and seem to be only too willing to trade fishing quotas to foreign nations in return for trade benefits for other industries.

Oh and PEI's 4 seats changes the proportional balance so little that it is irrelevant in the big picture. If we are talking effective representation, I am sure that there are more diverse issues for the representative whose district involves thousands of square kilometres and 70,000 people than the one representing 10 square blocks of a city and 140,000 people. Also federal jurisdiction over almost anything to do with the ocean means that coastal areas see the feds more heavily involved in the most vital industries that affect people. So pardon the offense of PEI DARING to have 4 representatives in the house.



Bottom line is that Ontario and Quebec will NEVER accept the dimunation of power that a Senate mandated to protect regional interests will involve. So I say scrap the fogey- farm that is now the Senate and move on. It does not make me happy but it is a reality

	20-02-2003 21:51									#127
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Most Quebecers never really wanted separation - the threat was prosperous. Won't work for Alberta since they have little Constitutional power. Alberta separatists can't play the extortion game to the same degree. The only real danger is if enough Albertans desire to leave. Highly unlikey as I've stated earlier.

edit:

Flubber - I'll take reform or abolition - the Senate in its current form is no good and has to go.

While I understand your point regarding federal jurisdiction encroaching on significant aspects of life in the Atlantic provinces, most provinces could cite similar encroachments. Simply having the status of 'province' confers MANY benefits one could argue such a small number of people should not have.....

Last edited by Wezil on 20-02-2003 at 21:57

	20-02-2003 21:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I'm not really worried about separatism as an actual possibility in the sestruction of Canada. 10 years ago I would have been. Tingkai's comments are right on the money about Quebec. 40 years ago, liberal (not Liberal!) that I am I'd probably have voted for Quebec's independence. The separatist movement was always a dying quail. The people of Quebec were awakening politically, but at the same time they were being treated more like equals as time went on. So the number of people who were willing to vote for something new was growing, but the base of really angry people was always dropping. IMO, the threat's basically passed now.

I would not say that it is passed.

	20-02-2003 21:56									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Quebec demographics are less favourable to the option today but it still doesn't help to get angry and yell at them to shut up......

He's right, should take a re-FER-END-EM by County in Quebec and run any separtist county out on a rail.
They'll end up with a enclave around Quebec City and
we'll save millions on dumping official French policys.

	20-02-2003 22:01									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Most Quebecers never really wanted separation - the threat was prosperous.

I would tend to agree that "most" Quebecers never wanted separation, the results of the referendums support that.
But if you want to believe that separation is only a tool used to extort funds out of Ottawa, well, you keep on believing that.
But remember that it would have taken only one word from Bourassa back in 91-92 and he would have had around 70% for a Yes vote.

	20-02-2003 22:03									#131
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But that would not have been prosperous.

	20-02-2003 22:10									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil But that would not have been prosperous.

	20-02-2003 22:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I would tend to agree that "most" Quebecers never wanted separation, the results of the referendums support that. But if you want to believe that separation is only a tool used to extort funds out of Ottawa, well, you keep on believing that. But remember that it would have taken only one word from Bourassa back in 91-92 and he would have had around 70% for a Yes vote.

51/49 last vote wasn't it.

De Havalind aircraft.

What word?

	20-02-2003 22:47									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz 51/49 last vote wasn't it. De Havalind aircraft. What word?

60/40 in 80. 51/49 in 95. (Getting scared ?)
De Havilland aircrafts ? What about them ? Should we compare which province in the history of this country has been the most favored by the Federal government ? Can you really have any doubts about that?
The word was yes.

	20-02-2003 23:07									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu 60/40 in 80. 51/49 in 95. (Getting scared ?) De Havilland aircrafts ? What about them ? Should we compare which province in the history of this country has been the most favored by the Federal government ? Can you really have any doubts about that? The word was yes.

No, Just refering to your "most" don't, a hell of alot do.

Scared? I fiqure Quebec is about as big a drag on Canada as it is a benefit. Naturally I don't want to
see a civil war over Ungava and the south shore.

Newfoundland.

It was supposed to be a open bidded contract, Are you
defending political corruption of equality of Canadians?

I think it would have been "oui", yes would have bombed.

If he could have said oui and been the first president of Quebec, he would have. A yes vote would really cause
a lot of trouble, you don't honestly think Canada will
trash itsself for an Independant Quebec's sake.

	20-02-2003 23:12									#136
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40 year clueless old fart ozzy. As usual being beaten to the ground.

	20-02-2003 23:34									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz No, Just refering to your "most" don't, a hell of alot do. Scared? I fiqure Quebec is about as big a drag on Canada as it is a benefit. Naturally I don't want to see a civil war over Ungava and the south shore. Newfoundland. It was supposed to be a open bidded contract, Are you defending political corruption of equality of Canadians? I think it would have been "oui", yes would have bombed. If he could have said oui and been the first president of Quebec, he would have. A yes vote would really cause a lot of trouble, you don't honestly think Canada will trash itsself for an Independant Quebec's sake.

Still : most don't.

Ontario is the answer you're looking for.

As for your clever "oui" repartie, i can do this whole thing in both of our country's official languages ( although i'll admit my understanding of some of the more difficult words like "Most" is deficient )


I still don't get your De Havilland references. I'm just not aware of the specifics.

	20-02-2003 23:43									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu As for your clever "oui" repartie I still don't get your De Havilland references. I'm just not aware of the specifics.

Thanks, it was to lighten things up abit. Quebec has had
real greivances in Canada, (the West too) but, the
constant separtation threat needs to end, one way
or another.

De Havilland of Winneipeg should have got the C-18
contracts based on and price and expertise. It went
to bombardia (snow mobiles) of Monteal.

	20-02-2003 23:45									#139
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 40 year clueless old fart ozzy. As usual being beaten to the ground.

Oh, Look what the dog dug up and dragged in.
a smelly decayed dead little Troll.

	21-02-2003 00:04									#140
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The first five pages seemed to be mostly people trying to wind up Asher. The last couple of pages there seems to be some thought going on as to some of the legitimate concerns over the problems with our country's regions.

Asher, I can't honestly remember who said that Alberta should vote Liberal to obtain federal representation. But it is a comment I have heard often enough here and elsewhere and it doesn't work anyway. Ontario and Quebec would still have way more influence.

Your suggestion that Alberta would have more autonomy in the US does not reflect the the strong powers that the provinces have vis-a-vis the the states which has already been commented on. The 'notwithstanding' clause alone provides more provincial clout than anything the states have.

To my mind the incredible, almost inevitable, influence that Ontario has on the country due to its large proportion of the votes is largely a result of the poor decisions made divving up the land around the time of Confederation.

Your comments regarding oil pipelines seem valid to me. The oil flows directly to the US and I can't imagine BC agreeing to federal pressure to restrict access to BC ports in the unlikely event of Alberta separation. Besides the trade flow in North America tends to be more north/south than east/west anyway. In many cases our access to US markets under NAFTA is better than to the restrictive Ontario market.

Keep in mind too that the Ontarians have always voted Liberal or Conservative which are basically the same party. Their fear and loathing over something new like Reform which could be a threat to their status quo is huge. My feeling is that they felt even more threatened by Manning than they did when the Bloc head was opposition leader. This is because Reform could have conceivably won the election whereas the Bloc could never.

The Mother Corp's news will often lead with Clark's questions to the government rather than Harper's. The central Canadian media establishment sees a pompous washed-up windbag from a safe party as less of a threat than Harper and his ilk. So they will go on bashing Harper and promoting Clark. It might not be fair, right or reasonable but it happens. For the record I did not vote Alliance last election though.

Finally regarding Alberta's noble contribution to the transfer payments... It wasn't always that way. Before there was oil there was drought on the prairies in the 1930's. At the time Alberta was very much a have not province. So just remember that over the course of many years things can change. Who would of thought that the BC gov't would be so incompetent to make us have-nots?

	21-02-2003 00:51									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber If you are going to do a senate totally proportional to population, why bother ? Thats what the House of Commons is and to replicate the same regional proportions is simply duplication for no added benefit.

Actually, if you'd thought it through you would realise that the proportional representation bit of the method used to elect candidates is exactly what provides "the West" with a more unified voice.

And if you hadn't noticed, the suggestion of an equal number of seats for all provinces in some future senate is simply a way to hand excess power to, as I said, the Maritimes, Sask and Man.

Alberta gets nothing out of such a system, since it already has 1/10th of Canada's pop. And given the likely trend, it will soon get a net loss of power via such a system.

There's absolutely no reason why 140 000 people in PEI should count more than 140 000 people in Montreal or Toronto.

	21-02-2003 00:54									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu 60/40 in 80. 51/49 in 95. (Getting scared ?) De Havilland aircrafts ? What about them ? Should we compare which province in the history of this country has been the most favored by the Federal government ? Can you really have any doubts about that? The word was yes.

And 60/40 now (or even 65/35, depending who you believe)

It crested, and luckily it did so just shy of 50%.

	21-02-2003 01:40									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger The US senate is precisely what I hate about the American system of government. All you're doing by asking for equal senatorial representation from all provinces is handing an inordinate amount of power to PEI, NS, NB, Nfld, Sask and Man. BC and Alberta are equally well represented (or so) and Quebec and Ontario get the shaft. More than half the people of Canada but only 20% of the representation?

Yeah.
God forbid we have two bodies formed by representation by population, and a third body formed with an equal interest by each province so we can protect the rights of those in the minority rather than ignore them.

The current system allows whoever leads the majority party to be an effective dictator. It's one of the stupidest forms of government I've ever seen.

What's worse, is it won't ever change because in order to change the people in central Canada need to realize that there are other people in this country that deserve to be heard, too.

	21-02-2003 01:42									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Silly American. Our government actually does stuff, and does it via the legislative branch instead of by executive orders...

True dat!
Like this year we got a ridiculously over-priced gunregistry that still wants more money, the rush-job pass on Kyoto, the millions of dollars in taxpayer money in propaganda to convince Canadians that kyoto is good, an exemption given to Ontario automakers from Kyoto's impact because so many MPs are from Kyoto.

It's f*cking great that our government can do things, since we give one man all the power at once, even if he's slightly retarded and senile.

	21-02-2003 01:48									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What we should do with these stupid separatist is give them a swift kick in the butt and make them look at reality. Look around. Canadians live in one of the best countries in the world where they have access to an incredible quality of life, and all these spoiled brats do is complain.

Hey, I agree with you that Canada is one of the best countries in the world.
The problem is, there happen to be better ones for some of our interests. Ones that are pretty damn close to us...

I still love this argument, by this logic you should stay in an abusive relationship if the spouse is really hot and most of the time "he/she's not that bad".

quote: The Albertan separatists are the worst. They have everything they need. They're not oppressed. They can voice their opinions just like anyone else and be heard, if they're smart about it.

Voicing opinions is kind of worthless when you're either ignored (see federal government) or called whiners (see Apolyton) for it, don't you think?

quote: Look at Asher. He lives in a country where his daddy can become incredibly wealthy. He gets a great education. He has a nice home. He can get a great job. And what does he do. He complains, and complains, and complains. [quote]And what has he done for his country. Nothing I bet.

Brilliant.
Why should I do anything for my country? I prefer the one with a hick in a cowboy hat a president, how sad is that?

The current country as it stands has done nothing but aggravate me. You can go on and on all you want about all of the people who have died "for my freedom" or some equally irrelevant righteous spiel, but I'm still just going to laugh at you.

The fact is, the current system sucks. Badly. It needs reform. Badly. You can continue trying to ignore that or discredit the people who want to reform it by saying "well Asia is worse!" or "You haven't done anything for this country!", but I'm sure people on Apolyton are smart enough to see through that lame tactic.

quote: Even worse, he's constantly complaining and demanding changes, even though he's planning to leave in a few years.

Did it ever occur to you the reason I'm planning to leave is the lack of changes?

quote: These brats should just shut the **** up. Either that or leave Canada. No one is going to stop them.

I see what you mean, KrazyHorse, about having a voice and a say in this country. "If you don't like it, go the **** away". Brilliant stuff.

	21-02-2003 01:50									#146
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quote: OK, it's a deal. Are you good at poker?

-Gatekeeper

Why don't we raise the stakes. You win, you get BC and Alberta. We win, we get Alaska to join a BC/Alberta government. That's a little more fair for a poker game.

quote: The only case in Canada's history that looks like the US' is the adding of Nfld in 1949.

-Frogger

BC was a British Dominion up until 1872. The only reason we joined confederation was the promise of a railroad extending across the continent. The federal government stopped funding passenger service for the CPR just recently. Is the deal off?

quote: If it really wants to make inroads into eastern Canada it needs to put forward a leader and platform a little more palatable.

-Wezil

Now were talking. What would have to change in the Alliance platform to make them more palatable?

	21-02-2003 01:54									#147
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quote: God forbid we have two bodies formed by representation by population

Two?

quote: The current system allows whoever leads the majority party to be an effective dictator

Correct.

quote: a third body formed with an equal interest by each province so we can protect the rights of those in the minority rather than ignore them

Why is it that protecting "the minority" only means "protecting the interests of people living in small provinces by giving them more of a say just by virtue of their location"?

And why is it that somebody's vote in small-town Western Ontario should count less than the vote of his cousin 30 minutes west of him in small-town Manitoba?

Man, you're such a whiny ***** sometimes Asher. I can't stand this sh*t when it comes out of the mouths of Quebec separatists, and I can't stand it when it comes from you.

You want marginalised? You should try living as an Anglophone in Quebec. The provincial government really doesn't give a **** what you say. As a matter of fact, they tell you on any occasion they can that they don't even consider you a Quebecer.

It still doesn't mean that the Anglophones should get more votes because they're a minority. And living in a small province shouldn't mean that you get more votes either.

If you think you've been screwed because Alberta's only the 4th largest province, then get your act together and amalgamate with BC.

But wait; that would mean that the CA wouldn't get every seat in the new province, now would it? And it would mean that the concerns of each individual citizen mattered less, wouldn't it?

You want the best of both worlds; you want the uniform voice and concerns of a small province, and the loud voice of a big province at once.

Living in a big province means sh*t to how important your voice as an individual is.

	21-02-2003 01:58									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Two?

House of Commons and Executive branch.

quote: Why is it that protecting "the minority" only means "protecting the interests of people living in small provinces by giving them more of a say just by virtue of their location"?

Because those small provinces are a minority. Surely you must agree that it's not fair to have two provinces where your vote counts (Ontario, Quebec) and all of the other provinces are constantly along for the ride?

quote: You want marginalised? You should try living as an Anglophone in Quebec. The provincial government really doesn't give a **** what you say. As a matter of fact, they tell you on any occasion they can that they don't even consider you a Quebecer.

Yeah, that's much worse than having the federal government do the same thing to you. Tell me, what has the Quebec provincial government done on the scale of the NEP?

quote: If you think you've been screwed because Alberta's only the 4th largest province, then get your act together and amalgamate with BC.

What the hell would this change?

	21-02-2003 02:02									#149
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quote: BC was a British Dominion up until 1872. The only reason we joined confederation was the promise of a railroad extending across the continent. The federal government stopped funding passenger service for the CPR just recently. Is the deal off?

?

Canada built the railroad. AFAIK it didn't agree to continue funding it. You should have gotten PEI's lawyers...

	21-02-2003 02:04									#150
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quote: House of Commons and Executive branch

The executive branch isn't a body, and it's composed entirely of those whom the PM selects. In Canadian political structure it's an extension of the legislature. Try not to apply American political theory to Canadian politics...