20-02-2003 23:35									#61
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Hum, Pottery leads to Mapmaking. And we already have the Alphabet that among other things leads to Mapmaking.

Therefore, if we reserach Pottery first, we should reserach Writing next followed by Map Making. By then we should have a coastal city and build a Galley to start exploring the coast.

Agreed about it being a bad idea to found a city directly on a bonus tile. In addition I would not recomend founding a city on a forest tile because we would lose the 10 shields that forest chopping would yield.

	20-02-2003 23:46									#62
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Well, vondrack's post is not altogether clear - he does use the word placeholder, but also says "we would be done with it earlier" - so I'm not sure what his intent is.

Either way, I disagree with selecting Pottery first. Using a placeholder and then switching before completion (even 1 turn) is wasteful. Also, once we have Pottery, a great debate will start about doing Writing, etc.

We must get Bronze Working first, and not gamble on the hut giving it to us.

	20-02-2003 23:49									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov No, no, Pottery is being used as a placeholder tech. If you pop a tech from a hut, it'll never be the tech you're researching. That way, we'll get a better chance of popping BW (as opposed to none at all if we start research on BW immediately). As to roading the forest game tile before popping the hut--AFAIK, we wouldn't be able to do this before completing a warrior, even with Industrious workers...

Exactly. Pottery would be a placeholder tech used only to increase our chances of getting Bronze Working from the hut (we want Pottery more than, say, Warrior Code - but not most, that's for sure). If we do not get BW from the hut, we can switch to BW (wasting the gold from the first turn) or we can research Pottery first, BW second.

And if we are lucky and run into a scientific civ very early, we can try trading for the BW, pretending we are already a good deal through the research of it (we would hardly be suspected to lie...) and thus not so excited about dealing for it... getting it cheap.

And BTW, Vlad is correct - even our industrious worker would be too slow to road the game tile first. However, we could work a grassland tile on Turn 1 (1 shield), a bonus grassland tile on Turn 2 (1+2=3 shields), switching to the game tile only then (1+2+3+3+3>10). That would give our worker time enough to road the game tile and pop the hut a turn before our first warrior would be complete. The drawback would be we would get our first warrior one turn later. However... imagine there is a settler or a friendly warrior in the hut... we might be missing on that...

I would rather lose two turns of the worker time than have our warrior a turn later plus anything from that hut three turns later.

	20-02-2003 23:59									#64
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Placeholders in city build queues -> good (no shields wasted)

Placeholders in tech queues -> bad (beakers are wasted)

	21-02-2003 00:08									#65
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We don't need Bronze Working first, actually Pottery is better. As Aeson pointed out, our cities are better defended by 3 warriors in the early game than by one NM, while both variants cost the same. With Pottery, we can build a Granary soon, assuming that the game can be irrigated. An early Granary = much faster expansion. Let's go for Pottery. If the hut gives BW, fine, if not, let's it research as second advance.

	21-02-2003 00:12									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We don't need Bronze Working first, actually Pottery is better. As Aeson pointed out, our cities are better defended by 3 warriors in the early game than by one NM, while both variants cost the same. With Pottery, we can build a Granary soon, assuming that the game can be irrigated. An early Granary = much faster expansion. Let's go for Pottery. If the hut gives BW, fine, if not, let's it research as second advance.

Exactly. We don't need BW immediatly; that would be nice, but it should be fine as a second tech. It would be a bad idea to build a Merc as one of our first units anyway.

	21-02-2003 00:20									#67
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack If you pop the hut with the worker, leaving the Warrior in the capital, you will get a bunch of angry warriors. If you disband the Warrior first and pop only then, you will get a settler. This proves that if you have no military, you will never pop barbarians out of a goody hut.

No it doesn't. This is not evidence that if you have no military, you will never pop barbarians out of a goody hut. It is evidence that the outcome of the hut changes after disbanding the settler. This might come from the effect you've mentioned, or from the changing of the random number generated.

	21-02-2003 00:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster No it doesn't. This is not evidence that if you have no military, you will never pop barbarians out of a goody hut. It is evidence that the outcome of the hut changes after disbanding the settler. This might come from the effect you've mentioned, or from the changing of the random number generated.

Do you think that disbanding the Warrior affects the RNG? Not sure myself, seems unlikely... as there is no random number needed in the process...

But I do admit that you have a point here. I tried to move the warrior first - barbs again. Which somewhat indicates that just moving the unit does not change the RNG seed. I think disbanding the unit should be no different.

Actually, I spent about half an hour playing test games where I did not settle at all and just kept popping huts with my settler and worker. NEVER got barbs. Not once. In like 30 huts. I know it is not conclusive evidence, but stil... I will try running more tests and look for more info about this.

	21-02-2003 00:57									#69
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The only things that changes the RNG in the middle of a turn is combat and poping a goody hut.

The RNG generated should change each turn though.

	21-02-2003 01:00									#70
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OK, ATTENTION EVERYBODY!

The Consulate has come to the final decision.

We shall settle right here and right now.
We shall start researching Bronze Working at full speed.

Note: the tech you get from a goody hut is (most probably - checked on various saves and test saves) one of the cheapest ones you do not know/research. Thus, if we used Pottery as a placeholder research goal and got lucky with the hut, popping a tech, it would be Ceremonial Burial. OTOH, if we go for BW, we might get Pottery from the hut (cost 2, just like CB). Thus the decision to start researching Bronze Working.

	21-02-2003 01:25									#71
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Back on those barbs from huts: I'm not sure, but I thought I saw somewhere mentioned that you will not get barbs from huts if there is a military unit on the same continent. This means that as long as none of our neighbours has built a warrior (or discovered one in a hut), we can safely pop the hut with the worker.

This also explains that if you find a new island, with some huts on it, sending out a scout or explorer does never give barbs from that hut (it might simply give nothing, though). There is no guarantee that there aren't any camps on that island, so in fact it's rather tricky: I think barbs (from camps) also count as units, if you've got those on the same island your scout is landing on, huts can give barbs.

DeepO

	21-02-2003 01:38									#72
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If the decision is final, it's final (but I do not like it!).

What will the Worker do next round?

Personally, I think that using the Worker to pop the Hut is a big waste of time. With our current city location we will have 2 Warriors by the time our borders expand and pop the Hut. It's not a perfect defense, but it will definitely do.
(Ideally we would have built the city due West on the Hill and avoided this problem altogether, but let's not dwell on it...)

Our Worker has already wasted 1 turn exploring the Game tile, we do not want to waste another 3 walking to and from a Hut...


Dominae

	21-02-2003 01:41									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Back on those barbs from huts: I'm not sure, but I thought I saw somewhere mentioned that you will not get barbs from huts if there is a military unit on the same continent.

You probably mean:

...no military unit...

	21-02-2003 02:12									#74
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Hopefully there will be a new screen shot soon with some more of the map revealed.

	21-02-2003 02:20									#75
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true BFM...it should be no military unit of course.

DeepO

	21-02-2003 02:33									#76
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Next turn we should road the game. Why? If we move the worker again it will waste two more turns to move him off and then eventually back on it. Not to mention the fact we can either road the game in 3 turns or move 1 turn and road the shielded grass for 2 turns (3 turns total). They both take the same amount of time. I would rather road the tile with the additional shield first. The only other question is: do we pop the hut with the worker? If the unit would get built before our cultural expansion AND having city+no military units means no barbs, then do it. Othwise wait for expansion and send the warrior either W or N.

	21-02-2003 02:49									#77
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Dominae, there is a significant chance of getting a free Settler by popping the hut.

Before work, I had time to cycle through starts until I got one with a hut at the same distance from the start tile. Then I had very little time left, but out of 13 pops of the hut I got 3 Settlers and 0 Barbs.

Vlad was correct earlier, it is if you have no military units. I misremembered last evening. Soren or Mike posted on it a long time ago. When I woke up this AM, I knew I had been wrong last night, Vlad's post confirmed that.

Can someone dig up that post by Soren(?) ? I have looked, but have not found it.

	21-02-2003 02:53									#78
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Looking at the screen shot of the stats:

So far, 3 of the players ahead of us started next to a river. That is the only way that our economy could be worse than 3 other players in 4000 BC.

	21-02-2003 02:55									#79
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I accept the decision of the consulate, although I don't like it either. The worker move on the game was already pretty poor, given it was sent to explore. The tech decision is also not the best in my opinion. I can live with the city location, though.

Oh well, after all there are other games going...

	21-02-2003 02:56									#80
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nye, 3 out of 13 are nice chances for getting a Settler, if only 13 trials were enough to get at the real probabilities. From normal play it is quite clear that Settlers do not come out of huts 25% of the time (even when Expansionist, and taking the necessary precautions).

But still, you're right that any chance we do get a Settler without fear of Barbs is significant. It's just that we're most likely (not just a figure of speech) going to be wasting a lot of Worker-turns for an early 25 Gold.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 02:57									#81
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Sir Ralph, will you say that moving the Worker there was a mistake if we pop a Settler or discover Pottery next turn?

	21-02-2003 02:57									#82
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I have never got barbarians when the captiol borderes expand btw. I don't think that is a major concern. But on the same token I rarely get anything good when my borderes "take" a hut. Usually a map or gold. Maybe pottery.

	21-02-2003 02:58									#83
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Where did you get the turn, joncnunn?

	21-02-2003 02:59									#84
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Sir Ralph, will you say that moving the Worker there was a mistake if we pop a Settler or discover Pottery next turn?

That's not an entirely fair question, now is it?


Dominae

	21-02-2003 02:59									#85
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Dominae, screen shots in the topped thread.

	21-02-2003 03:00									#86
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Hum, we will have a luxary within our territory when the cultural boundary expands.

Perhaps we should do the following options with the worker:

1. Road the tile, boosting science & taxes.
2. Pop that goody hut
3. Road that tile
4. Build Road to Luxary via light terraign. This should complete about the time the border explains.

	21-02-2003 03:05									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae That's not an entirely fair question, now is it? Dominae

I agree, we may have gotten lucky with a less than optimal move. However, we will be able to move a Warrior to the hills in 4 turns.

I think things will go a little better shortly when we have the Ministers installed. That should be very soon. I will be posting on that topic later this PM.

	21-02-2003 03:05									#88
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Sir Ralph, will you say that moving the Worker there was a mistake if we pop a Settler or discover Pottery next turn?

Yes, absolutely. To find a Settler would be awesome, of course, but it would show only, that you were extremely lucky. I would say nothing about skills. You gamble, and that's not good so early.

	21-02-2003 03:05									#89
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Next turn we should road the game. Why? If we move the worker again it will waste two more turns to move him off and then eventually back on it. Not to mention the fact we can either road the game in 3 turns or move 1 turn and road the shielded grass for 2 turns (3 turns total). They both take the same amount of time. I would rather road the tile with the additional shield first. The only other question is: do we pop the hut with the worker? If the unit would get built before our cultural expansion AND having city+no military units means no barbs, then do it. Othwise wait for expansion and send the warrior either W or N.

I have mentioned that before, but let's sum it up again:

1) Warrior in Apolyton will take 4 turns to build, unless we artificially delay the production
2) Worker will need 3 turns to road the game forest tile (and already spent 1 turn moving to the game forest tile)

thus:
3) unless artificially delayed, our first Warrior would be finished 1 turn before the Worker would be able to pop the hut, if roading the game tile first
4) according to my test, we will get no angry barbarians if popping the hut before building our first military unit (see here - disbanding the unit shall most probably have no effect on the RNG, so that example is quite a strong, even if not completely conclusive evidence that we will not get barbarians if popping the hut immediately with the Worker).

Considering this, the current plan is to pop the hut with our Worker on Turn 2. Unless there is a strong, well backed argument raised against this, that will be what we will play. We waste two turns of the worker's time (can be pretty much expressed as 2 gold... 1 gold from the roaded game for two turns) in exchange for the chance of getting a map, money, friendly warrior, or a settler from the goody hut (plus preventing the hut from giving us angry barbarian warriors).

	21-02-2003 03:06									#90
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I usaully get a deserted village when an city boundary takes a hut.

However, I have had success geting 25 gold poping a barb village via city boundary expanding into it.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I have never got barbarians when the captiol borderes expand btw. I don't think that is a major concern. But on the same token I rarely get anything good when my borderes "take" a hut. Usually a map or gold. Maybe pottery.