21-02-2003 05:01									#121
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Why would we lose shields?

As much as I tried to avoid it, without Pottery there's just plenty of times that the current Shields-per-turn would bubble over the number of Shields required to finish a project (Warrior, Settler, Granary), in the first scenario. That's more than just annoying.

But the real loss is not the loss of Shields, but the loss of Food from a super-early Granary. By building a Settler first, that's 3 "growths" that require 20 Food instead of 10. That's a huge difference this early.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 05:11									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We lose a lot more, since everything this worker will do till the end of the game, will be done 3 turns later. Workers are workers and not warriors or scouts. And on our "catch up because we're industious", well, industriousness is our advantage to be used to gain benefits over the other teams, not to catch up the losses due to a gamble of our Consuls in the early game.

So, moving the Worker to the hill to scout would have been an acceptable delay, but using him to pop a hut with a no bad result guarantee is a waste?

I think that some of us should climb down for a minute and consider what they earlier suggested in the context of what has been done.

	21-02-2003 05:14									#123
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Thanks Dominae. Now I REALLY want us to research pottery first.

	21-02-2003 05:19									#124
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Moving the worker to the hill wouldn't have been acceptable, IMHO.

	21-02-2003 05:21									#125
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, moving the Worker to the hill to scout would have been an acceptable delay, but using him to pop a hut with a no bad result guarantee is a waste? I think that some of us should climb down for a minute and consider what they earlier suggested in the context of what has been done.

I actually wanted to move the settler on the hill to build a city there, not the worker. That's a difference. Care to look it up? Given you decide to step down, of course.

After the worker had been sent exploring, I said that for this purpose it would have been better to move it on the hill, since he gets a better sight. Note that at this point, it wasn't clear yet where to build the city at all. We could have ended up moving the settler as well, if the worker would have seen something good from the hill.

	21-02-2003 05:21									#126
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First screenshot impression: we're in last position when it comes to commerce, of the 4 cities already founded. So, all other capitals are either near a river, or are already using some kind of bonus resources (luxs, gold, fish). Commercially, this is going to be a challenged start position, let's hope our second city will produce more commerce.

BTW, we're the fourth to settle, but how many teams started before us?

DeepO

	21-02-2003 05:25									#127
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Out of the 4 Civs before us, 3 settled; only CDG did not.

	21-02-2003 06:21									#128
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO First screenshot impression: we're in last position when it comes to commerce, of the 4 cities already founded. So, all other capitals are either near a river, or are already using some kind of bonus resources (luxs, gold, fish). Commercially, this is going to be a challenged start position, let's hope our second city will produce more commerce. DeepO

The fact that we are commercial will counteract this as we move along in the game. Hopfully there are rivers close by to allow are later cities to grow beyond size 6 quicker.

	21-02-2003 06:30									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I actually wanted to move the settler on the hill to build a city there, not the worker. That's a difference. Care to look it up? Given you decide to step down, of course. After the worker had been sent exploring, I said that for this purpose it would have been better to move it on the hill, since he gets a better sight. Note that at this point, it wasn't clear yet where to build the city at all. We could have ended up moving the settler as well, if the worker would have seen something good from the hill.

Sir Ralph, I am reacting to your comments re DG = Dictatorship game partially.

I am fully aware that you urged moving the Settler to the hill, after the worker had already moved. Did you take into account that a majority of the participants of chat last night favoured settling where we are? Did you review the opinions posted in this thread and see that 8 or 9 people asked to settle where we are and that 5 people wanted to move to the hill? That does not count myself or vondrack.

vondrack felt strongly that we should settle where we stand. For myself, I did not feel strongly about moving after we had already sent the Worker to the Game so I did not push it. One Consul feeling strongly, supported by another Consul (Ninot) and a majority of the people present last night as well as a majority in this thread... Where is the dictatorship?

	21-02-2003 06:30									#130
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There will probably be a river in the jungle to the South, but that's not very ideal. I think we're going to have to live with the fact that we'll behind in tech. To keep up, we'll have to rely on shrewd trading.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 06:46									#131
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither vondrack felt strongly that we should settle where we stand. For myself, I did not feel strongly about moving after we had already sent the Worker to the Game so I did not push it. One Consul feeling strongly, supported by another Consul (Ninot) and a majority of the people present last night as well as a majority in this thread... Where is the dictatorship?

I can't see any democracy, either. And with my comment I did not refer to the decisions met in turn 1. The city site we settled is not optimal, but ok with me, and I already said that I respect the decisions met by the Consulate and supported by a majority. The tech decision was suboptimal, Pottery would have done a far better job for our growth, and it was not enough discussed.

What concerns the constitution: I bet half of the people here did neither vote for the Consuls, nor the constitution. At least I did not elect you. I didn't have the slightest idea, that the private forum already exists and found it out only after the polls were already rushed. Since there are no new elections, I won't have any opportunity to cast a vote anymore. I don't call this democracy, sorry. You might.

	21-02-2003 07:08									#132
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We were elected four days ago Sir Ralph. It is unfortunate that we could not accommodate the desires of people who did not turn up until the game was actually on, but it was felt best by practically everyone here at the time that we should have players in place for the arrival of the first turn.

btw, there is still a democratic process available to you. You may elect to begin Votes of Nonconfidence on any or all Consuls. That is your democratic right. So, yeah, I'd say the word democracy would still apply.

	21-02-2003 07:11									#133
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I'm sure this will all feel a lot more democratic as the game progresses. Sir Ralph is doing an excellent job of voicing his opinion, which is the most important thing in a democratic society (as long as people listen, which they are). It is annoying to see decisions made which appear to be sub-optimal, but hey, that's democracy for you too. We've got enough talent on this team that no major screw-ups should happen, no matter who is leading us. I for one like our current Consuls (as far as I can tell); their organization is exemplary. What we really need are our Ministers, so that the Consuls can rely (although not totally) on "expert advice", instead of just who happens to be online at the time...


Dominae

	21-02-2003 07:51									#134
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I didn't even realize this game was about to start until this week, and knew next to nothing about it. That leads me to suspect that the game was not publicized nearly as well as it ideally should have been.

That, in turn, raises interesting questions about the long-term legitimacy of our constitution and government. If latecomers such as myself are only a small minority, all is fine. But if we comprise a significant percentage of the team, we have a situation where numerous members are being expected to live under a system we had no real input into the creation of. In that case, we need to at least consider whether to keep the government as it stands now or to call a new constitutional convention so that everyone now on the team (and those who join in the near future) can also have input. And we need to do some more publicizing to catch any others who haven't picked up on the game's existence.

Nathan

	21-02-2003 07:52									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm sure this will all feel a lot more democratic as the game progresses. Sir Ralph is doing an excellent job of voicing his opinion, which is the most important thing in a democratic society (as long as people listen, which they are).

Agreed.

btw

Does anyone have the logs of the chats last night? I was under the impression someone would post those. Am I correct that chat logs are normally posted?

	21-02-2003 07:59									#136
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E_T posted a log of our little chat yesterday. You can find it here (sorry, I forget how to anchor to a specific place on a web page...).


Dominae

	21-02-2003 08:17									#137
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Sir Ralph, I am reacting to your comments re DG = Dictatorship game partially.

I would like to add a couple of words, too.

As much as you dislike the current constitution, Sir Ralph, it allows you to call a CoC (change of command or "no-con") vote on any one of us (Consuls), either running for the post yourself or having someone else to run for it. There is no dictatorship here, unless you call decison making a dictatorship.

We - the Consuls, and sometime a single Consul alone - will have to take decisions. The Consuls are the only one allowed to. However, they are the ones that have to, at the same time. Undoubtedly, there will always be someone upset. There will always be someone happy, at least I hope. I bet the Consuls will always do their best to take decisions the Apolyton team will benefit from.

To that end, they will seek advice of every member of the team. They will do their best to read and consider whatever is posted in the forum (at least I do), post polls on various issues etc. If you (or anyone else, for that matter) believe we - the Apolyton team - should do this or that, suggest it in the forum, backing your suggestion with a solid argument or analysis. If your suggestions are often overlooked and you believe you would be a better Consul, by all means, go ahead, call a CoC/no-con vote, and run for the post. But unless you do that, I would respectfully ask that you stop questioning the democracy in this team.

Now, re: Turn 1.

I have already explained, why the worker went south instead of west. The game forest tile was apparently the tile we would be working from the very beginning. Thus, it seemed a good idea to move there, revealing few more tiles, ending up ready to start roading the tile. OTOH, moving the Worker westwards would bring him to a tile that we would certainly not work in any foreseeable future, thus for sure wasting one or two turns of his time. Moving the settler onto the hills seemed to be unlikely, as we would have to discover something extra great on the other side of the hills to justify settling atop those hills (shifting the game forest out of the inner city ring).

Even the initial position (with no info on the two southernmost tiles of what we are able to see now) seemed fine for many. With the extra info, a vast majority of the team voted for settling - and as nye correctly pointed out, I was in favour of settling, Ninot as well (quote: "I am completely adverse to moving the settler."), and he himself didn't mind. So we would have to be nuts to do anything else but settle.

And as for the research setting. Until 8pm, where the deadline was set, it was suggested that we start with Pottery to make it possible to get Bronze Working from the hut. I did not feel that majority of the team would be in favour of Pottery, many seemed to prefer Bronze Working. I myself being in favour of going for Pottery, changed my mind after nye mentioned (shortly before the turn was scheduled to be played and forwarded to CFC) that goody huts always give (one of) the cheapest techs you do not know/research. That ruled out the possibility of getting BW through the hut, one of the most important arguments raised in support of the Pottery first approach. Thus, we decided to follow what has been largely accepted before the game began - start with Bronze Working.

PLUS, as we anticipate(d) popping the hut with the worker, we have to consider the possibility of getting a tech from there. It will be one of the cheapest techs not known/researched at that time. If we go for Pottery, we would get Ceremonial Burial, that is for sure. If we go for Bronze Working, we have a 50% chance that in case there is a tech popped from the hut, it will be Pottery which we want.

There was one small mistake made, though. All of us overlooked a question BFM asked early - what kind of grassland is under the hut. Unfortunately, he coupled this question with a suggestion that was just totally insane (building the city on the game tile), so I did not pay attention enough (don't know about the others). But even with this information (and the follow-up sim/info from Dominae), I would not consider Pottery an obviously better choice. There is still a fair chance we might get Pottery from the hut... and how early we plan to build that granary? (or a Merc, for that matter?) 20 turns? 25? 30?

Now tell me, what exactly was done subpar? What exactly was done wrong, considering the information available at the moment the decision was taken? Why do you question the democracy and competence of the Consuls? The simple fact they decided different from what you would have done, does not necessarily mean that they decided wrong or that they exerted any inappropriate power conflicting with the democratic principles in the team. A decision had to be taken. A decision would have to be taken even if we had waited until now. And I seriously doubt I would rush to change it even at this moment.

Note: crossposting with others, some points already raised... not typing quickly enough plus having troubles with the connection (currently on the dial-up backup).

Note #2: Dominae, thanks for your constructive approach. I very much appreciate that although you did not like the decision taken, you are now working hard to make the most out of our - maybe good, maybe bad, maybe optimal, maybe suboptimal, but certainly irreversible - position.

Note #3: Should anyone feel the current government is not legitimate enough, PLEASE, call a no-con/CoC vote. That is the tool the current Constitution gives you. There was actually not that many people interested in becoming Consuls, you know...

	21-02-2003 09:06									#138
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What was the logic behind vesting such enormous power in the consuls - not just power over the final decisions but also power to appoint the lesser officials?

	21-02-2003 09:31									#139
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As far as I understand it, the logic was that because the game is being played by many teams from different sites (not just Apolyton), there is an expectation that the game has to move quickly, since other teams will get very impatient (not to mention the fact that we don’t want the game to drag on for the next three years) if we stop for a week between turns and take polls on every matter and wait for people to drift in and cast their votes as we have the time and leisure to do in an Apolyton-only democracy game. So we must have decisions made quickly; therefore the constitution gives the Consuls broad powers.

	21-02-2003 09:31									#140
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Nathan, it was thought important to have a simple system which could act fast due to the restrictions on time in a game like this.

It was also considered wise to vest ultimate authority in the Consuls, thus they appoint the Ministers to advise them. Rather the way cabinets in most modern democracies work.

Of course, you could read the apporpriate threads, they are not that old and should be on pages 1 and 2.

It should be noted that an equally large power was given to the citizens. The right to move for a vote of non confidence on the Consuls. Any citizen may do this. Under such a system, it is difficult to see how the word 'despot' would apply.

	21-02-2003 09:39									#141
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Sorry for being slow, but what are "Senators"? It appears they are the only ones that can initiate a Change of Command. I much prefer Changes of Command to votes of No-Confidence to replace our Consuls. As it stands, it seems like the only two times we would want to change our Consuls is if: 1) a Senator wants to make a grab for power, or 2) the people think the Consuls (or a subset of them) suck. Neither of these are very positive. So I think we organize a system of re-elections after a certain period. This way, citizens would have the more positive responsibility of casting votes of confidence for those candidates they want leading them. "Senators" would therefore be anyone citizen who plans to run for election.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 09:47									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Sorry for being slow, but what are "Senators"? It appears they are the only ones that can initiate a Change of Command.

All of us! At least I hope so

Tell you the truth, I would rather we referred to ourselves as Citizens, or better yet to be properly Carthaginian, Sofetes. Senators is a bit confusing.

	21-02-2003 09:48									#143
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Everyone who is not a Consul is a Senator.

	21-02-2003 09:51									#144
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So what's the difference between a vote of no-confidence and a change of command? In one case you're getting one Consul out, while in the other you're changing the whole group? Or does a vote of no-confidence happen immediately, while a change of command takes longer to process?

Answering these questions I think will go a long way to make people more comfortable with the current government/constitution.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 10:05									#145
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Not to sound peevish, Dominae, but perhaps newer members could familiarise themselves with page 1 and the top of page 2 before they fill up threads questioning what has gone before.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=77881

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=76450

	21-02-2003 10:16									#146
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Darn, a couple of these have slipped to page 3. They were early discussions.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=76177

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=75848

	21-02-2003 10:20									#147
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nye, I often forget most of what I've read previously, only remembering the things that strike me.

I guess my comments revolve around one aspect of the procedure: a Sentor must "single out" a Consul for replacement. This makes it sound as though the Consul is doing a bad job or something, and it essentially the same as a vote of no-confidence.

Indirectly, this means the Consuls will not often be replaced, as you people would feel you need an especially good reason to replace them.

But here's a good reason: maybe other people want to have a chance, or may do a better job than the current Consuls. This is not to say the current Consuls suck, but rather that changing Consuls should not be a "big deal", but something that happens for the sake of the team (perhaps periodically?).

As far as I can tell this has not been discussed yet. As it stands, I tend to agree with Nathan that the late-comers get kind of shafted, because they have to causes a ruckus just to get heard. If Consuls could be appointed and replaced more "peacefully", things would be a lot simpler (and less tense).

Anyway, we're talking something like 2 months down the line here. I'm happy with our current leadership.

Edit: You early guys all agreed that periodic votes were not the way to go. I think that's what's at the root of all this discussion. Many newer players think otherwise.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 10:23									#148
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If anyone has time (I certainly don't), it would be nice if someone could put together a topped thread with information for newcomers to bring them up to speed on the team's terminology, bureaucratic structure, etc. Then folks like Dominae and myself could find out without having to wade through a few pages of threads or pester people who have been around longer with questions. Just a thought in case anyone has the time and interest to pursue it.

Nathan

	21-02-2003 10:26									#149
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Dominae, I am quite sure that many people who serve as Consuls will willingly relinquish the post after a reasonable period of time. I would expect the ones to stay on indefinitely to be rare.

However, defined terms would not be a bad thing for a seperate discussion in it's own thread to serve as the basis for an amendment.

	21-02-2003 10:27									#150
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Nathan, vondrack is working on exactly that sort of thing. He has been preoccupied recently with the start up.