02-07-2003 20:20									#331
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO FP, you realize I was joking, right?

Yes. And so was I.

	02-07-2003 20:22									#332
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I thought so... but had to make sure

	03-07-2003 06:40									#333
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The StormHawk Party strongly protests the "let's all get along" nature of the Benelux countries!!



(seriously, one of my long-term clients is SWIFT... there's a reason that they and NATO et al are where they are... pretty cool)

	18-07-2003 13:51									#334
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not too much time right now (this afternoon hopefully better), but kind of urgent thing to discuss: With the lighthouse, and a newly build harbor on Legoland, we can trade! We discussed a lux-lux trade, so if nobody objects the following few hours, I'll send them a proposal. They are discussing the same thing, and will send dyes this turn.

I'm a bit short on time this evening, so I'd want to get this done at work... I hope the rest of the summary comes later (basically, yes: they want to give RP money, although they don't like it)

DeepO

	18-07-2003 14:08									#335
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Go for it DeepO. No reason not to. Just, build in the 1 turn warning both ways, OK?

	18-07-2003 14:13									#336
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Ah so another luxury on its way. good, good.

And they are giving RP money. wonder why that is, and wonder if that will cease when we intervene.

Are they going to give RP chivalry? While we wouldn't stand in there way, it wouldn't be prudent to ask them to give it to them yet...

	18-07-2003 14:29									#337
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yeah, I'll ask about the 1-turn warnings, no problem. This was discussed in chat, and Vondrack seemed to approve.

I asked about chivalry (I asked a lot, BTW, maybe better to read the whole transcript instead of a summary), but nothing got back... I think they were kind of surprised that I said that one of the options of keeping Bob stable was to go to the continent ourselves. I kind of asked for their permission... Vondrack only said we had to look out to not get everyone ganging up on us. He didn't outright disapproved.

One of the main things I still remember is that he said "the 'we're builders' theme is just a ruse, the moment we see an opportunity, we will attack". Kind of a shock to hear, as it means that indeed, Bob is not so safe. If we don't get a foothold there, and have 2 civs battered up, Lego will invade, and try to pacify Bob instead of us. If that happens, the game is lost.

more later

DeepO

	18-07-2003 14:31									#338
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Well, Lego shows its true colors. hmm. was he drunk or something, why would he say that?

	18-07-2003 14:39									#339
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* Aeson hopes Lego sends the Orange Dyes...

	18-07-2003 14:40									#340
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I think he's starting to trust us... we're relatively open with them, so he's opening up to us. They know they need a partner in this game, and none of the Bobians will be that.

DeepO

	18-07-2003 14:47									#341
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Just a vote in favour of the lux-lux deal with Lego

	18-07-2003 15:24									#342
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Do we need an extra lux?
AFAIK an extra lux won't change a thing for us, but Lego really needs an extra lux because all they have is just one lux. So it'd be a big payoff on Lego's side against as little as nothing, except maybe a friendship bonus, on our side.
Can we get Lego to pay for our luxuries, perhaps? We can offer them two luxes (surely they'll be delighted), but in exchange for gpt or maps.

	18-07-2003 15:30									#343
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We may lose Wines and Spices in the near future, and face War Weariness to boot. I think all the Luxuries we can get is a good idea.

	18-07-2003 15:39									#344
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Point taken.

	18-07-2003 17:23									#345
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BTW does anyone else suspect Lego is bee-lining for navigation at the moment? They are currently doing astronomy, and could finish it in ten turns (possibly less). Then they are researching navigation. What's the rush for them? They can already reach Bob. All that navigation allows them to do is -- reach us quickly. They could be building galleys (upgrade to caravels), load them up and dump on us two turns after they get navigation.

I just mention this, not because it is likely (it is if we are involved in a war on Bob and doing well IMHO) but because we should be prepared for it in any case. How well would we deal with a 20 unit landing next to Hurricane with no warning? Not too well. And they could be doing it soon (especially if they are misleading us with estimates of how long it takes them to get Astronomy). We need to start worrying about this now, or we could be toast before we know it.

Yes, yes, I'm a worryer.

	18-07-2003 17:25									#346
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Shiber, they stated they had no money to pay us for, which closes the discussion on 2 lux. I tried, but didn't want to push them.

More things to mention (don't have time to read the log, so it's coming back in pieces):
- ETA on Astro is 11 turns. I said we could probably make that, even if we prefered more gold. That leaves us at least 3 more turns of 100% tax, and more can be renegotiated.

- They don't know for certain, but would prefer racing along in tech, certainly if they want to get to RR and arty. Which means keeping techs to our own for a while.

- Lego sees one big trading point for their techs: Lux. That has a bit of a problem (I didn't explain that to them, though): their dyes can be worth wines, spices, ivory and furs if traded to 4 different civs. Which only leaves incense (from us, we don't trade techs for that), gems and lux #8 (forgot it). They don't realize yet that there will be very few lux to trade for, or the possible benefit these will give

- Vondrack tried to push us into a "Bob will attack you" theme. That may be what he heared from RP (which were trying, of course), or it may be manipuilation. One of the points he mentioned is that with our map, it became clear to the world that we need new ground if we want to expand, and also that we're far superiour economically speaking.

- Research: I tried to downplay it, but I think one of the Legos made a precise calculation of how much commerce we produce. Last chat, they still believed they were the better researchers, now he mentions something like "but of course we're still way behind you"

- Lego has a 'no invasion of Bob' pact with either ND or GoW (we know from GoW it is ND). Vondrack starts by saying he wished it wasn't there, but it was an opportunity they took when it presented itself. Further in the chat, he says it's not so bad. They have no special connection to ND apart from the pact

- RP is no friend of them, but still they want to help. I think that if they realize we are going to get large holdings on Bob, either by helping or conquering RP, we're done with our fine relation. But so be it One of the points that is not so good is that they have no-Sistine clauses with nearly everyone, while we read in the RP log that they want to build Sistine... I can imagine they're not so pleased.

- Astro is not on the trading table yet, education is.

- we talked a little about extending NDAs on techs, they would be willing to go with every reasonable proposal we come up with. Eventually, we'll have to come up with one. I said again that eternal NDAs can't work for us, because in case war breaks out, we would still be bound by it.

That's about it, I guess.

DeepO

	18-07-2003 17:31									#347
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vulture, navigation I don't know. They need astro quickly to be able to trade (at least that is how they told us). I'm not sure they are going to invade us fast, though, they know (or at least have been told) our force is not to be messed with.

But it's always good to watch out, meaning Hurricane not undefended, seeing when astro gets discovered, and possibly a galley or so on their side.

DeepO

	18-07-2003 17:43									#348
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Here's an interesting question: Lego now have a route to us. We have a route to RP (for example). Does that give Lego a trade route to RP? I'd guess not (which is one of those exceptions that makes calculating trade routes a bit of a nightmare), but you can never tell what the game mechanics will throw up.

	18-07-2003 19:44									#349
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I'm not sure on that, vulture. It wouldn't be fair, as it gives the effect of the lighthouse to everyone with a harbor, and peaceful to us.

But regardles of that, it is now perfectly possible to trade Lego some ivory. We can trade our only source away, give dyes to RP, and get an extra dye from Lego, and an extra Ivory from RP.

DeepO

	18-07-2003 20:00									#350
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We can't trade away imported resources, unless something has changed since I last checked. We can trade away the only source of a native resource, and replace it with an imported one, but we can't e.g. trade our dyes from Lego to anyone - it just won't appear as an option in the trade screen.

	18-07-2003 20:10									#351
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When you get Navigation, that doesn't let everyone else on your continent trade over ocean through your harbors. The Lighthouse situation would pretty much have to be the same as that.

	18-07-2003 20:41									#352
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ah, okay. Getting caried away again

Nathan, there is no turn thread yet (I think), but please don't forget the furs for Lego... or incense if we have more of those. Officially we need to wait for their response, but if it isn't negative (and I seriously doubt that), we shouldn't delay the trade. They can always cancel the deal if they don't like it.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 23:56									#353
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So lego was offered ostensibly the same deal that we were, except instead of bilbao they were offered leon.

Interesting. They say the accusations on the main page of RP helping vox are true. Not a suprise.

so did RP go to Lego first, or were these simultaneous. This explains how the treaty was written up so quickly, basically everything was the same but replace the names.

Lego seems an unlikely ally, they probably have no army to send over to aid, or not much of one.

	22-07-2003 00:18									#354
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quote: All that navigation allows them to do is -- reach us quickly. They could be building galleys (upgrade to caravels), load them up and dump on us two turns after they get navigation. I just mention this, not because it is likely (it is if we are involved in a war on Bob and doing well IMHO) but because we should be prepared for it in any case. How well would we deal with a 20 unit landing next to Hurricane with no warning? Not too well. And they could be doing it soon (especially if they are misleading us with estimates of how long it takes them to get Astronomy). We need to start worrying about this now, or we could be toast before we know it. Yes, yes, I'm a worryer.

That you are. And now you've got me worrying (a bit).

-Arrian

	22-07-2003 00:28									#355
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RP went to Lego first, sleepy. Last chat (the one last wednesday), Vondrack asked me if RP contacted us directly and extensively... they were in serious negotiations back then. Now Lego says the reason they didn't accept was because that would mean they had to break a treaty (with ND), but that is only half the thruth.

I'm quite positive that when the RP-GOW alliance discussion was going on, they were arranging to first of all take out ND, then come to Stormia, and not Legoland. Possibly, Vondrack knew this from RP. Legoland is also building up military to protect itself, and I can imagine they have a sizeable navy as well... but couldn't reach RP in time to protect those 2 cities. And, they don't want to trigger ND and GoW coming after them first, they want them to focus on us.

All of this makes it even more important for us to take out ND and GoW asap, if not, they will bind together with the Legos and attack us. It's a good thing caravels can't reach us from the East, we still have time left...

DeepO

	22-07-2003 00:33									#356
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BTW, something that might be missed: I think that before last turn, Lego and RP hadn't signed the no-Sistine clause yet. But, last chat with RP, they said they had signed it. They didn't mention how long ago, but possibly this was part of their pay to Lego: RP says they got 150 gold, and 2 free techs, they have nothing to offer in return. Except Sistine, that is...

DeepO

	22-07-2003 00:33									#357
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dp... sigh

Last edited by DeepO on 22-07-2003 at 01:03

	22-07-2003 01:05									#358
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good analysis DeepO

Looks like they will be more than content to see how this shakes out, all the while building their army and cities.

	22-07-2003 01:32									#359
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Of course.

This could work out great for Lego.

Or, it could be a disaster. If either side in the war has great success (military victory + leader(s)), Lego's got problems.

-Arrian

	22-07-2003 01:32									#360
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The only problem I foresee with the Lego chats is that if they feel we're going to go for both ND and GoW, instead of keeping RP alive, they are going to team up with the others anyway. Which is why we need good contacts with Vox: after we take out ND and GoW, we can handle a RP-us against Lego-Vox game, before that we cannot.

My problem is that it's quite easy to let them think we're only there for stabilization, and not for immediately go for Bob, but I can't lie to them... and even bending the thruth is not honorable. It's just that there are several truths, and we just need to make sure Lego hears the one they will like most.

BTW, if anyone wants to give detailed comments about how I handled the chat: please do. It will help the coming days, as I'm sure Vondrack is going to contact me or nye (or Arrian) soon. They must think about this in their forum, but very soon I'm expecting to get hammered with a whole number of Legos in one chat. I tried to mention a couple of things in this chat already (e.g. we're not doing it for nothing, but want RP land which is strategically important to us), but many more will come. Or at least they need to come: if Lego doesn't ask or contact us, we need to contact them unless we want to alienate them

DeepO