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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:26
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What are legos commitments that we know of?
We know they won't attack RP before 1000AD
We know that they have an agreement with GoW and ND not to land on Bob, but it is voidable by Lego and ND???
We have a lux deal and a tech deal and no sistine?
Does RP have a don't land on Bob pact with them as well? I could easily see lego pulling some blocking maneuvers against us, similar to what we are doing. The difference being that Nd is so reclusive, would they go for it? I'm sure GoW would if they were the first to get smacked.
Should we try to get an agreement that they wouldn't interefere with our war? Doubtful they would go for that, more of a don't land units, don't accept cities. hmm, I doubt they would take that, but it might be worth a shot.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Very true, Arrian. We do not know the outcome of this war. I don't think RP is in such bad shape (they can defend against one stack, just not to two), but we will have to coordinate, and they need to fall back. With bad luck, though, this war can be over before we get there...
Lego's commitment:
- no attack of RP until 1000 AD (but I wouldn't bet on them keeping their promise if they see a major opening)
- no Sistine clause with (nearly) everybody
- lux deal and tech deal with us
- ND has a no-land-on-Bob pact, RP is uncertain (but not likely). GoW I strongly doubt they have even a NAP with. I'm sure that if ND wants to waive the no-land clause of their NAP, Lego will certainly do it. This does not mean they will land, though
- Legoland are in name builders, in reality opportunists which see they can gain most by concentrating on building first.
Legoland is not going to block us like we're doing with GoW. They still beleive we need to be kept as friends. Blocking us would simply mean we take the cities, and they face the threat of the largest army around, without the means of invading our home turf. If they get into this war, it will be with a large army, not with the kind of 'dear to attack us and you're dead' tactic we're using
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Okay, we're going to need to contact Lego soon. So could we plan what they are going to hear? Tomorrow, I won't have time to chat, and Friday most likely neither, but I can send a few PMs from work. If this is not how to do it, somebody else will need to chat to Lego.
Things we need contact for (and no, we can't be silent to them):
1. We need to hear what they think about our invasion. Vondrack mentioned that his first impression was a worried one, and I can imagine. Now they probably have a better idea what the group opinion is going to be. We need to find this out asap, to avoid getting caught in an Lego invasion
2. Lego and Vox are going to see the war between RP and us, and the switching nationality of Inchon. We must avoid them spilling this either in public, or in private
3. We should avoid Lego becoming the silent, passive partner of the ND-GoW alliance. They can still investigate cities, we should try to prevent that.
I would like to tell them the following:
1. So far, so good. We seriously disturbed war plans from ND and GoW, and thrown them off balance. This will give time for RP to properly build their defenses
2. ND attacking us was foreseen, and not so bad. For the moment, this means we can keep them out of running over RP. By attacking the two cities, they have shortened the lines RP needs to defend.
3. GoW not attacking us is as we hoped for too. We don't need to get involved in another war, and they are caught in unfavorable terrain. It will take a while before they can start their GA, and by the time they get to RP's cities, hopefully RP is able to keep them out
4. our mutual objectives are reached, in that in the near future, 3 civs will remain on Bob. (Actually, there are four there, but our presence is only a symbolic one)
5. If you want this impasse to remain, please don't actively support ND or GoW, as it will disturb the face-off again. If you decide to help ND or GoW, please do us the favour of giving us some information first. We also don't ask for additional, direct help for 'our side', but you are free to give it, of course. However, this 2 vs 2 war makes it balanced again, and any interaction with either side will cause the scale to tilt again. We're not looking for a full blown war on Bob where one side conquers the other, the whole point of this was to keep the current balance intact, as any side winning the other half of Bob would be a serious threat to either of us 'island nations'.
6. During the next turn, you will see Inchon changing hands to RP, by the time the save will get back to ND, all will be as old again. I can't comment exactly what is happening (I will disclose this in a couple of turns), but could you please not spoil the surprise to either ND or GoW or in public? It is part of our plan to strengthen RP, but without the surprise it will not be effective.
7. If you have formed an opinion on our involvement, please let us know. As said, we still consider you our best hopes for the future, and would hate to see our involvement in Bob turn our relation sour. Any input will be appreciated, and taken into account.
8. Any questions you might have, we're willing to respond to. Of course, you will understand that we can't disclose battle plans, but there is a lot that can be answered.
Finally, there are a couple things they can hear if asked for:
1. We don't like RP. We don't trust RP
2. ND does not have a good idea of what they just got themselves into. But, they declared earlier that this fight was one to the death: RP's death, or ND's death. We're willing to discuss peace terms with them, but not if it means we have to let RP get overrun. We don't hold grudges, nor do we need their territory
3. GoW is in somewhat of a pickle. In order to have a sucessful war, they will have to break either a deal with us, or with ND. If they decide to honor all agreements (which so far they seem to be doing), this war is going to take forever for them. They were diplomatically outmaneuvered, which will certainly not make them happy. I can imagine they complain about RP being puppeteers, as in reality, it is true... but GoW fell into a hole they dug themselves.
Things I will not disclose to Lego at any cost:
1. We land on Bob this turn, with a stack worthy of either ND or GoW. No troop information can be given
2. We're planning to conquer ND, after that it will be either GoW or Lego 
3. We have a long term alliance with RP
4. We have more troops then ND and RP combined
5. we're planning on invading ND or GoW (only thing said can be that we're defending RP's land, not that we will go on the offensive)
...
Any comments on this? As said, if we want to keep the Inchon II maneuver hidden, we will have to ask Lego, as they most certainly will disclose it otherwise. Which means we have to ask them before RP sends the save on.
Oh, the things mentioned in the first point were not intended to be said to Lego in one shot, but more over the course of a few PMs. Also, I mention here the max I would be willing to disclose, if it can be done with less, it would be better.
DeepO
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:26
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I don't like a lot of it. Lego aren't our lapdogs, and some of what is listed to ask them would come off as us thinking they are. It would be insulting, much like GoW and ND's requests to us given the compensation. At least they offered some form of compensation, here we are just asking Lego to do something for nothing.
I think we should just give them minimal "ND has attacked us, and we are now at war with them" type stuff.
Also, maybe a gift of Incense (Furs?), as an apology for any delays on the tech trading, if we need any reason at all other than friendship. We could mention that the war on Bob will likely cause Luxuries to be untradeable at different times, and this is some assurance against any possible action by GS (or anyone else) that would hurt Lego's trades.
Assume everything said to Lego will be heard by ND/GoW. Lego are going to be looking at us as the one to beat now if they weren't already, and will want to knock us down a peg or two if possible. They were in on the Vox deal almost certainly, expect the same from them now. We can't talk them out of this, it's a decision made by game circumstance... we are bigger than anyone else, and now that we are on Bob, we have more potential than anyone else.
We can't force Lego to not ally against us. We can expect it and plan for it so we won't be caught off guard. We can also avoid giving any information which makes us look weak, avoiding giving it in such a way that makes us look condescending and manipulative. That's as much 'control' as we have over Lego at this point.
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quote:
3. GoW not attacking us is as we hoped for too... |
If GoW hears this, don't they end up attacking us? If Lego hears this, don't they end up seeing an opportunity to attack us?
It makes us look weak. I'd say something like "Things are progressing much as we planned." 'Hope' insinuates weakness. 'We had hoped GoW wouldn't attack' implies that we are vulnerable to someone else attacking. That or it conveys nothing, as no one ever wants to be attacked.
It would be Lego interpreting this, so all we know is that they would get something that is either harmful to us, or not useful to either of us.
quote:
5. If you want this impasse to remain, please don't actively support ND or GoW... |
The whole 'lapdog' thing. We look like we are trying to guide Lego policy, rather than just inform and allow them to make their own policy. At the very least it looks condescending and manipulative on our part. Making assumptions for people comes off that way.
We are basically going to war with 2 civs which treated us this way. ND and GoW are going to war with RP (and willing to fight us) because RP treated them this way. Lego already has plenty of reasons to fight against us, they don't need more.
quote:
6. During the next turn, you will see Inchon changing hands to RP... but could you please not spoil the surprise to either ND or GoW or in public? |
I don't mind informing them of what they will be seeing. They almost certainly will notice it, and so it's just being nice and giving them information they will have anyways.
We shouldn't ask them to do something for us as a favor. Maybe offer the luxury to them for silence, but even then Vox can spill it just as easily. If we ask them to keep quiet about it, they can even just say yes, resent us, keep their word, and have Vox tell. If they are on our side, they won't do it. If not they will. We can't tell them to be on our side, that's their decision.
I can't see any good coming from it.
quote:
It is part of our plan to strengthen RP, but without the surprise it will not be effective. |
This is deviously good actually, but I don't think we should use it. It's a lie, as it will be effective (and maybe moreso) if ND/GoW know what's going on. It's using the lie in a way which could entice ND into attacking the buzzsaw if they get wind of it.
If a team comes to a conclusion that is going to hurt them on their own, we aren't liable. (ie. GoW investigates Pamplona, RP moves everything in, ND attacks based on what GoW sees for them, which is outdated) If we lie to get them to come to that conclusion, it's too manipulative for my tastes.
quote:
1. We don't like RP. We don't trust RP |
"We are wary of RP still." RP is our ally now like it or not. We don't have to trust them, or like them, but we shouldn't flat out say we don't to anyone. Don't give Lego ammunition to turn RP against us eventually. Let them know we have our guard up, but not that we expect it to be necessary.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Hmmm... I see your points, and I agree. However the follow up as you put is is exactly why I think we should prepare what to say, it's obvious that this needs some preparation. nye, you mention 3 of my points (Inchon, their feelings, we're preserve RP), and even if you're not proposing to actively solicit information it's not so far from what I said.
Getting in touch the moment they get their save would indeed be good (which is basically the same as when RP is about to pass it on), but most likely, that will mean I can't contact Vondrack, and someone else has to take over.
and Aeson, you're very right in that hope implies weakness, however my idea of using it was that we should not try to appear overpowerful, even arrogant either. But I can easily see your points, especially that whatever we say can go to ND and GoW, and should therefore be approached very cautiously. I don't think Lego will give information to ND or GoW, but you never know. I do think, however, that if we don't keep contact with them fluent, they will have no reason whatsoever anymore to keep things from them, and for the moment, I'd rather be their lapdog then face them as pure opponents.
BTW, would any good come from disclosing the deal we rejected from ND and GoW: we get a couple of cities for our help against RP, until Lego is destroyed?
DeepO
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:26
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'Weak' was perhaps the wrong word. 'Vulnerable' would have been closer to what I mean, but still isn't quite right. We can't actually look weak with our city sizes, infrastructure, and military the way it is, and we can only look vulnerable in certain theaters, not overall.
We can make ourselves look out of position, which a team would want to take advantage of to help nullify our other advantages.
So we can downplay our overall position, but probably shouldn't downplay any specific position too much. We don't want to ever show our Achilles heal, or give the other teams the idea that we have one (unless we are setting a trap  ). Make sense?
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I wouldn't be suprised if ND, GoW, and Lego aren't having much the same talks about invading GS as GoW/ND approached us about in regards to Lego. Lego is smart enough to realize that the GoW/ND talks about an 'invincible' home base after railroads is applicable to both of us equally. If they are going to try to kill one island nation, they would have much the same motivation to kill the other as well.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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I hope last chat was as unrevealing as possible...
main points:
- we have 10 turns from now to research banking. Astro will get here in 8. Lego is going for any of the optional techs, as they want to trade invention from someone
- Vox is on 40-turn research, but they weren't really saying which one. Maybe better contact VBox over this
- For the moment, they are watching carefully what happens on Bob. They stay out of it, for the moment, but in case we would gain too much ground, they will intervene.
- Inchon hasn't been told to ND or GoW
- I thought I said only stuff to them that ND and GoW knew. E.g. they asked about the troops in the East, I told them GoW are in our territory. I did not comment on what we feel of that, or at least I tried to.
- They were worried about us getting many RP cities. I said that what we have for the moment woud be temporary (I hope that was okay). I told them what we would want to gain from the war, Lego thought it too be very vague
- They obviously anticipated more concrete info, but understood we couldn't give much.
more? I don't know... I'm exhausted, next time I miss this much sleep I let someone else do the talking, even if that means they will miss a familiar face.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Okay, it seems obvious we need to contact Lego again. I've got time for a chat this evening, so can try to grab Vondrack. If this needs to be done over PMs, we might be taking too long...
It's important that we keep our image as honorable clean (after all, we have been honorable all the way, so why let others spoil it). Which means we have to give away some info on what has happened diplomatically. I see 2 major points:
A: previous deals with GoW, and how they treated us
B: last deal, and how they tried to get us in on the RP war. Also includes the NAP, as it is obviously out in the open now.
I don't mind commenting on any of this, it doesn't look like GoW is ever going to be friendly to us again. Which means we have no reason anymore to keep negotiations secret.
so...
A1: scouting of GoW of Vox invasion: doctored screenshots
A2: getting a sea-RoP under promise of having an empty galley, not intended to land troops, landing troops 3 turns later from that empty galley
A3: 'technical state of war', because they wanted the chance to play their merc role, and enjoy the happiness. Only wanting to get peace the moment they could gain from it
A4: asking us where to land their mercs, asking us for a ruse, big display in public forum, doctored screenshots and all, while we were still in war.
A5: Selling Feudalism one turn before the NDA had transpired (which we only now discovered)
B1: AFAIK, we were offered a NAP before any talks about ganging up was been done. We declined
B2: We accepted the NAP once it became obvious there was going to be a war. A NAP seemed logical to close with GoW, as they were the smallest civ on Bob.
B3: We asked about plans for invasions, we then were informed of the ND contract on RP. We knew this at the time of Lego asking about it, but couldn't comment as it was secret
B4: We were asked to participate in the war. We never solicited our help by ourselves.
B5: Help could exist in two parts: either sail a coupld of galleys around RP, to draw defenders to the South. Or actively participate in the war, invading RP.
B6: payment was a problem: we wanted 3 cities permanently on Bob, to keep 1-turn galley crossings out of the possibilities. We were offered those 3 cities, temporary, until we conquered Lego, after which we could get part of Lego. We declined.
B7: Our NAP was being abused by GoW, to stall us. Last chat, they were talking about 'this is such a lengthy process, we will need several more weeks to get a deal in place.' In several weeks, there wouldn't have been anything left of RP.
B8: main idea in going through these negotiations was dual: on one hand seeing what the plans for conquest were on Bob before interfering (very little of the plans leaked to us), OTOH seeing if we would get the opportunity to become the 3rd Bob civ. But it was clear that GoW and ND wanted a 2-civ Bob
B9: at the same time, we were approached by RP, and made a deal with them, where we were going to protect them. Initially, this had the same payment as ND and GoW refused us: 3 coastal cities. This can change if we are forced to actually attack GoW and ND in their territory, instead of getting the territory back which they took of RP.
By being so open diplomatically, I hope to avoid any strategic questions. Also, by filling them in, we short-circuit any allegiations GoW can make about us.
Lastly, I hope it will give us some credit in asking about deals too: what was going on in the Vox war? who were the ones hiring GoW?
Comments please?
DeepO
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22-07-2003 01:36
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