09-03-2003 01:31									#61
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J/K

Good post, though, really.

	09-03-2003 04:42									#62
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One thing we need to be very careful about : for the time being, the plan is that Philosophy doesn't get shared with anyone outside us and Vox. So we need to avoid giving Lego the impression that they can expect Philosophy from us before it becomes widely available. Same goes for Republic when we get it.

	09-03-2003 04:52									#63
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How about tech widely spread now, IE no future tech is on the table.

	09-03-2003 05:01									#64
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When we get our turn, we'll have Philosophy. We could put the arrangement in terms of all techs that three or more teams currently have, though.

	09-03-2003 19:14									#65
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Nathan, good catch on philosophy. So far, no harm has been done, and I'll take care that the deal does not include philosophy. It was in the back of my mind, though...

I was thinking that the moment they showed even a little interest, I would enumerate what we have to offer, making a list of all techs, and contacts we can provide them. Does everybody still agree on the double WM deal? I think I'll ask for a little cash, but as said, I don't consider any cash necessary... let's hope this will be low enough for them to come to us, instead of trying the same thing with someone else.

DeepO

	09-03-2003 20:16									#66
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I still absolutely love it. This trade will deprive all the other teams of Lego's gold for their techs, and deprive GoW the gold from whoring Lego's contact if we finalize this deal before they manage to sell contacts to everyone, and give us a complete map of Bob. Woohoo!
However, I'd inform Lego that we'd like them to buy (or trade for) the world map of at least one Bobian civ during this 20 turns period.

	10-03-2003 02:07									#67
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Re: cash from Lego- how about asking them to pay for half the cost of the gold we give GoW?
This way they won't have a hard time giving it, and makes our trade look more like what we wanted it to look like: we help you stay in the game without ripping you off, and you help us make sure the warring Bobians don't get richer.

	10-03-2003 04:37									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

first proposal sent to legoland. this is the most important part:

quote: Basically, this is what we were thinking of: - We give you the following techs (if you don't have them already, of course): iron working, literature, code of laws, mysticism, horse back riding, mathematics and all techs leading to them if you don't have them already (this should include all level 1 techs). - We give you all contacts to other civs you might miss - You give us your world map when the deal starts - You give us your world map in 20 turns from the start of the deal. In the mean time, you try to exchange your worldmap with a Bobian civ, so that when we receive your second worldmap, hopefully most information on Bob is also included. Notice that you try to exchange it, there is no requirement that you succeed. We would be hoping for it, though, as it is the only real advantage we can get ourselves out of this deal, instead of denying others your cash - you pay us the symbolic amount of 50 gold, if you somehow get our contact from Bob. If we need to purchase your contact, you agree to pay 50 gold, plus half of what it costs us.

Maybe it's not perfectly worded, but it's a start. Let's see how they react.

Also, I think I left enough room to maneuver, so if anybody wants to comment: please do!

DeepO

	10-03-2003 06:06									#69
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Can Legoland have any gold at all? They researched Pottery, Writing, MapMaking, BW, IW, Philosophy... who knows what else.

Maybe they were smart and left all their huts alone, but otherwise I don't think they could have had much commerce to spare.

	10-03-2003 14:08									#70
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Well, they've had a LOT of encounters with Barbarians, so I'm sure that they popped (and continue to pop) enough barb encampments to make themselves a small fortune.

	11-03-2003 00:29									#71
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Lego will not trade world maps...
Though perhaps, they will agree to get a map of Bob and send us screenshots (no in-game maps), if this is legal (and if our new respected member Ixnay cannot provide such screenshots from the Luxian archives).

	11-03-2003 00:37									#72
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Damn... please read the messages in the lego log, they are quite interesting. I don't have a lot of time to comment right now, but here are a few quick comments:

- GoW has had to luck to not only receive lego's contact, but also philosophy.

- Lego is, or is going to start research on republic. bye bye republic advantage

- worldmap deal is off. I did point them quite hard onto the thing that whatever they give to GoW will get whored around instantly, meaning they deal with a middleman who is gaining more then them

- deals are already in place to distribute republic with GoW and RP

- they want 1/2 the gold as opposed to beaker cost from us from republic. No way, I would think. Next message I'll post an analysis to them explaining why this is bollocks, certainly after they tell us that they have 2 other teams already

- biggest point is that I'm unsure on whether we need to research republic ourselves, and ask legoland for gold, or we have to stop researching, and buy it from them. Maybe a chat is in order to smoothen this out. Currently, there is no way of knowing how far along they are already, so how much beakers wuold get lost on their side if we would ask them to stop, and give us half the beaker cost for republic, so they can sell it to other teams. It seems that we don't have a possibility to gain from it, so both researching it is foolish, because even if we would be faster, we can't sell it to others as legoland already has deals in place. A serious issue...

Other things: I don't know... will need to leave soon, I'll comment some more tonight (I hope)

DeepO

	11-03-2003 01:06									#73
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Sounds like they are willing to pay us 1/2 the gold for Republic as well (if we go this way?). We should try to get them to agree that we research it ourselves. This gives us a 1-2 turn advantage in starting our revolution over the others, and we have the Religious edge over some of them to boot.

If our goal is to keep gold out of the hands of BOB, this may work pretty well. We and Lego end up with the gold between us.

I think we should ask for an exclusive right to trade Republic to ND in either case, to balance out that Lego has GoW and RP signed up.

	11-03-2003 02:40									#74
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Damn, i should have figured earlier that Lego would jump on the first contact they find- GoW for that matter (better than ND or RP, though).

Let's try to talk them into buying Republic from us, and split the market between us.

At least now we know how GoW got Philosophy...

	11-03-2003 03:26									#75
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Didn't we trade CoL to GoW with a no-whore for 10-15 turns (depending on when we got MM from them)? Almost surely they traded CoL to Lego for Philosophy, I can't see Lego researching CoL on top of the rest of their techs, even if they got 2-3 from huts. If this is the case, I'll start working on a no Lighthouse + Vox + GoW scenario. Ixnay's maps will help a lot in this regard.

I think we need to send a message to Lego detailing the terms of how GoW got CoL.

	11-03-2003 03:31									#76
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1, 2, and 3... wow (why was the spacebar submitting my posts?)

	11-03-2003 03:31									#77
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...

	11-03-2003 03:31									#78
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quote: 1) The GS gives CoL for a 100 gold guarantee. 2) GoW gives MM for 130 gold. 3) Both teams agree not to trade the techs it has recieved through the mentioned deal, for a period of 10 turns.

If we can verify this deal was broken, should we keep the 130 gold and get MM from Vox (4 the 20g)? At the very least we should ask for some sort of compensation.

	11-03-2003 03:52									#79
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Couldn't GoW just have sold "older" techs ? Such as IW and so on?
(I don't think Lego made a good deal though, their contact should have enough(GoW having a monopoly 'lego contact' )).

	11-03-2003 04:22									#80
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If Lego can research Republic, that means they have CoL and Philosophy. Maybe Lego got Philosophy from GoW, but the timing seems to suggest GoW got Philosophy from Lego. Otherwise they would have been whoring it out before they got contact, they can't research it in 1 turn now can they?

So the possibilities are:

Given: Lego researched by themselves... Writing, IW (they said they were researching this at one point), BW (they aren't Scientific), Pottery, Map Making, and Philosophy.

- BW and Pottery could have come from huts easily, the rest could only come from huts if they had already researched all the first tier techs themselves or gotten them from huts. Even if it was by huts, Mysticism usually comes first.

1. Lego researched the above + CoL, and GoW traded such things as Mathmatics, Mysticism, HBR for Philosophy.

2. Lego didn't have time to research CoL along with all the others. They traded Philosophy for CoL along with some sort of deal on The Republic.

If you were Lego... Once you figured out it was an isolated start, would you beeline for Map Making? That would suggest that Lego researched Philosophy after Map Making, and their Galley has just now made contact. How many turns did it take their Galley to make contact, and is that enough time that they could have gotten both Philosophy and CoL?

To me it's rather doubtful that Lego researched CoL themselves. We've been at the front or ahead of the pack in research, and I don't think we could have done it.

Last edited by Aeson on 11-03-2003 at 04:28

	11-03-2003 04:35									#81
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Send a second message... should have read the comments here first. Guys, I know I'm rushing here, I try to stay as vague as possible, but this one is urgent... if we want any deal with legoland, we need to make one quickly, or we or legoland lose too much.

Main problem I see is Vox: if it wasn't for them, I would take the no-whoring clause, or get legoland to sign one with us. But if we need to give it to Vox anyway, there is little point in even trying that kind of plan. Too bad, actually, I would have much rather limited republic between legoland and ourselves, then between Vox and us.

I don't see many other options then at one point or another inform legoland from our oustanding deal with Vox (at least to sharing republic once we got it), and get some way of 3-way partnership. I want to avoid that for as long as possible, though, and now is certainly not the time to tell them anything.

One, rather dubious, possible solution is that we 'stretch' the agreement with Vox, and get a 10 turn no-whoring agreement with lego. Vox can get it at turn 11. Maybe we can arrange something like that with Vox, without legoland needing to be informed of anything, but I doubt Vox wil be happy... flashing a little cash might help, after all, they are Vollidiots

DeepO

DeepO

	11-03-2003 04:40									#82
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Aeson, cross posted with you, it seems. Indeed, it seems unlikely they researched CoL themselves, but there is one other possibility: delayed huts, or simply a very large continent with many huts. I don't think it's likely, but if they would somehow gotten philosophy from a hut, they could have researched CoL themselves...

If they don't give an explanation on CoL by themselves as an answer to my last message, I'll ask them, as a favor, to tell us the origins of CoL. It remains possible, though, that they haven't started on republic yet, in which case we would be the first to get it anyway...

BTW, when do we need to talk to Vox about this?

DeepO

	11-03-2003 04:47									#83
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I think our best course of action is to get Lego to allow us to research The Republic. Something like 'We have already started our research on The Republic and can finish it rather quickly.'

I think getting 1/2 the gold cost of The Republic from them is a good thing. We could possibly bribe Vox to allow a delay in The Republic, or give a bit of a refund to Lego so that Vox can get The Republic in a timely manner. We could also get them to reseach another tech as part of the deal (lowering our gold intake to 1/2 the difference in beakers). Construction or Currency would both be good.

We should try to get an agreement in place for revenue sharing between us and Lego from The Republic once it becomes apparent we need to trade it to BOB civs. Whenever that may be.

	11-03-2003 04:55									#84
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To get Philosophy from a hut they also would have had to get CB, WC, HBR, Mathmatics, and Mysticism first I think, with chances of Literature and Polytheism too. Unless they had 5 huts give them techs, it would have slowed them down.

If we tell Lego the nature of our CoL for MM deal with GoW, and ask if they received CoL from GoW, they will know if GoW broke the deal or not. Perhaps they will tell us, but if GoW broke the deal, and Lego finds out about it, that can only serve our purposes. It will make Lego less likely to trust in GoW. Whether we find out about it or not.

If they got CoL by themselves, it doesn't make us look bad to just inquire.

Do we have MM from GoW yet? Perhaps they are doing the same thing to Lego regarding MM. We could include that GoW is trading us MM (and selling it to many others), and we just want to be sure that GoW isn't breaking any agreements that would sour our relationship with Lego.

	11-03-2003 05:08									#85
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That's an idea, GoW wouldn't get MM from lego, would they? the timing is perfect... although it would have been too risky to count on lego making contact with them to precise a eta on MM.

As to telling lego how we dealt with it: I think I more or less asked that in last message, but if they don't answer me properly, I'll ask more directly next time.

Republic shared with lego: surely sounds like a good plan to me, but I need to think it out more deeply... something for tomorrow. Maybe we can wrap it as an anti-Bobian alliance... Let's see what their answer is going to be on the eta question, that should clear many things up.

DeepO

	11-03-2003 05:32									#86
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It does make some sense if they took both MM and CoL to gain time to stock up cash. They weren't very definite as to when they would get MM either.

Their 'win' at this point is probably to upgrade more Horses to Riders than ND can upgrade to Ansars.

	11-03-2003 05:35									#87
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I'd just like to point out that it's probable that GoW and Lego could have worked out a mini-map pinpoint of where the crossing would occur. The date of contact would be almost definite in such a case.

	11-03-2003 05:43									#88
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What if Lego does tell us that they got Col from GoW ?
Going public will put Lego into a rather tough place, as they are the only ones we could have gotten the info of.

An island alliance does sound good
-
It's a damned pity, we didn't had a few more goody huts

	11-03-2003 06:31									#89
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If it does turn out that way, I don't think we have to go public with it, or even let GoW know that we know necessarily... but it will help us in dealing with them in the future.

	11-03-2003 07:06									#90
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But that won't help very much, will it.

Perhaps we could inform others (could slow down trade a little)
We could even try to blackmail GoW with it
( not very honarable is it )
-
We could inform Vox to hold of buying MM from GoW for a while (or have they agreed to it yet?).
-
If we tell GoW that we know what they did, their MM prize to Vox could drop considerably (Thinking we will sell it to VoX, something that is worth considering)
-
Or we could just keep the 100 warranty gold.