11-03-2003 09:12									#91
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We've already closed the Map Making deal with GoW, at least assuming they accepted our offer. (Edit: In-game, that is.)

Last edited by nbarclay on 11-03-2003 at 09:35

	11-03-2003 09:37									#92
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Points we need to cover with Lego (if I'm not missing something):

1) We are already started researching Republic, so it would likely make more sense for us to research it than for them to.

2) Unless they have commitments from GoW and RP not to sell or trade Republic farther, an arrangement where Lego agrees not to sell it to ND or Vox themselves does not ensure us the opportunity of having half the trading rights. Expecting us to pay half the financial cost without our being guaranteed half the trading rights (or otherwise getting about half the benefits) seems less than entirely reasonable.

Last edited by nbarclay on 11-03-2003 at 10:00

	11-03-2003 14:26									#93
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Vondrack says they got 5 techs from huts. Likely ones would be The Wheel (can't see them researching this and IW once they have confirmation of an isolated start), Mysticism (who researches this anyways?), HBR, WC, CB...

I still don't think it helps their tech rate that much in getting to Philosophy, CoL, and Map Making. They would almost certainly be researching Writing themselves, and Map Making. Mathmatics should come before Philosophy (not entirely sure on this), and Literature and Polytheism are just as likely as Philosophy, and moreso than CoL.

Will be interesting to see what they have to say. Not sure what GoW had to offer Lego for Philosophy given what Lego would have had to have had to pop it from a hut.

	11-03-2003 16:59									#94
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Nathan, there is no real way of knowing how far lego is on republic, which erxplains my question of an eta. So far, I avoided telling them we are already on route with republic, but if you all think that this is not grave to spill to them, I ill have more arguments to reason with them.

as to your #2: of course half the financial cost would be nonsense, even more so as they define it as half the gold we would get during the turns it would take them to research. If we gain more commerce during this period, we could actually pay over half the beaker cost. I've got tons of arguments lined up with them to explain this, but first of all I need replies on CoL: if we're going to sell it to them, I wouldn't mind if they are going to pay us half the beaker cost for it, or even one third would be superb. In reality, 100 gold would probably be too much to ask.

DeepO

	11-03-2003 17:03									#95
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Aeson, are you taking into account that if you are researching one tech, you will not get that one from a hut? if you e.g. block writing by researching it, you could get to monarchy in 5 techs (I think). I realize that what they got is not ideal for blocking, but by changing techs at 0% research, they could do it.

As to 5 huts containing 5 techs: that's totally unlikely. Either they had a lot more huts (which would again mean their continent is huge, so far the only counterindication is that they only have one sort of luxs.), or they cheated, and reloaded in case a hut didn't provide what they wanted from it.

We got lucky with our only hut, but this kind of luck is what gets some people to win the lotery twice in a month...

DeepO

	12-03-2003 00:37									#96
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Well at least that's cleared up. Blocking techs is a good point, but that means they morgaged their future (getting to MM) on luck from huts. They would have had to be very smart to save their huts, and make a huge mistake hoping for long odds to pay off.

Of course if they had 10 huts, it's not that long of odds, but still nowhere near the sure thing that beelining for MM is.

---------------

I think it all works out well for us. We stand to make more from CoL than we could have otherwise.

I also don't mind slowing down the tech rate, as long as the 'duplication' is between us (GS, Vox, and Lego) and BOB. Once Riders and Ansars are roaming on BOB, bad things can happen. I think we should recommend that Lego research Construction or Currency, and we will be willing to trade The Republic for their tech + 1/2 the beaker difference in gold (if no trading restrictions), or hopefully work out some sort of revenue sharing treaty where we split the proceeds from those two techs and don't compete with ourselves when trading them. In such a case, 1/4 the beaker difference in gold.

How we include Vox in all this is the hard part.

	12-03-2003 00:44									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson How we include Vox in all this is the hard part.

Yeah... sigh. Damn Voxians, if we wouldn't need them, I would simply leave them out of the deal... If they could research one of the costlier techs, we could probably get lego on the two that were left, and still end in time for us to get a 3-partner alliance going.

I'm quite hesitant to start these kind of negotiations with 3 teams, that is simply too complex to be of good use. Look at the Vox-Lux-GS situation, or at what happened before on Bob... I do not blame Lux for what happened there, it was simply too complex to set up a partnership between 4 teams.

DeepO

	12-03-2003 19:18									#98
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DeepO- could you ask Lego to tell us exactly when they get CoL- so i could send GoW our message, re: Violation of NWA.

Regarding Vox being part of the tech alliance- perhaps now is the time to revise the arrangement between the two of us, and make Lego our prime partner?

	14-03-2003 23:44									#99
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Please advise, urgent.

	15-03-2003 01:03									#100
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Re: Lego getting our contact from ND.

ND doesn't have Philosophy right? Maybe we (or rather Vox) can just take that money that ND is getting?

	15-03-2003 02:42									#101
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We'd better decide quickly, they're going to play their turn anytime soon.

	16-03-2003 17:39									#102
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So this too late... totally overlooked it yesterday. I warned the legos that we are in contact, let's hope they did not already sent payment for our contact. They are right though, we should try to sell their contact to Vox, to avoid them letting spending money on someone else...

DeepO

	28-03-2003 01:33									#103
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Just received a new proposal on republic from lego, basically, they sell rep to GoW, we can sell it to Vox, and as a compensation they asked for 70 gold to compensate the difference.

I tried to friendly explain to them that given the new situation, maybe it wuld be a good idea for them to drop the gold, as perhaps we would be the ones needing to ask for money. If anyone feels inclined to accurately calculate it, be my guest

(should be BeforeLast(Curr) + BeforeLast(Constr) + Last(Curr) + Last(Constr) compared to Second(rep) + Third(rep) Not sure who is in the advantage here, it's definately close)

Further:
- are there people who want to join Sunday's chat, 9 pm GMT?
- And, what are our future research plans going to be, and what would we want to let the legos search for?

DeepO

	28-03-2003 01:49									#104
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Yes, I'd love to participate in Sunday's chat, but 9PM GMT is simply impossible for me. If we can hold it an hour and a half or so earlier then I could make it; of course, I fully understand if that is impossible.

I would have answered your other questions and related to your post and to your excellent quick response letter to Lego, but alas, RL calls.

	28-03-2003 01:51									#105
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quote: - And, what are our future research plans going to be, and what would we want to let the legos search for?

Would a strategy 'beelining' for cavalry work?

What I mean is, not researching the upper part of the tree, but Lego and us alternating on the bottom part of it, whereby one goes 100% on research, while the other saves up money to be able to go 100 on the next tech.(and using the extra cash for upgrades & rushing).
(Oh, not trading these tech to Bob of course)

	28-03-2003 02:12									#106
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Shiber: Sorry, sooner then 9pm GMT is not possible for me, it really is the earliest I can make it. Normally, I wouldn't mind at all if you would start before me, but not in this case, the relation to lego is still very unripe and fragile, I would really like it if I can keep the GS-voice-to-Lego role for a bit longer. Later on open chat should not be a problem, but now, we should look out for them getting a messy idea of us, I strongly suggest I moderate our side of the chat to Lego.

Beeline for cavalry... dunno... it sounds ok, as Bob will have 3-move UUs, so maybe their emphasis won't be on the Southern route. But if we want to really pull it off, we should either have an insane amount of cash by then to rushbuy knights / WCs before cavs, or we need to get Lego in to the fight. I hope I'm wrong, but somehow, I don't see us dominating enough to pul off a cav rush, Bob has 3 teams which could get them to riflemen rather quickly.

Not trading techs with Bob: another thing to consider, but (at least at first) not really viable. The moment we shut them out of our tech dealing, they are going to unite against us, which means we'll have a hard time, while Lego can sail right along... not our best option. Maybe we can do it later on, after education has been distributed (so a possible GL does not become an issue), and / or after our GA has given us double the territory we could get peacefully.

Short term, I think we should try to convince Lego to get us to knights asap. And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

DeepO

	28-03-2003 09:45									#107
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If RP is researching Republic themselves why aren't they shopping it around? They will almost certainly finish it the turn after we give it to Vox and Lego if they are... if not the turn after we do. So Republic isn't worth a whole lot either in that case.

The 70 gold isn't a bad idea if RP is researching it. We likely just make it back in the MT trade, and would be better for relations. Lets ask RP if they are interested in saving (remaining) beakers by splitting the difference with us, as there is no longer a potential NDA we'd be breaking. They stand to get Republic just as fast, if not sooner, while making another turn or two of gold. We would of course give them the exclusive resale right to ND if they already have a deal.

If we can figure out that RP isn't researching it, then the NDA enforced with GoW should open up RP and ND for trading.

	28-03-2003 14:50									#108
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quote: Short term, I think we should try to convince Lego to get us to knights asap. And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

Suppose they tell us, they are going for the pyramids and are nearly finished. To what are we going to switch? If we go GL, trade could suddenly become a completely different ballgame.

	28-03-2003 16:22									#109
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I'll try and make it to the chat- what's another hour of sleep prior to a 10-hours day of non-stop university studies, compared to pressing FA business?

We should point out that we would like to keep as less gold as possible from our deals- and make it a pure tech trading scheme. Any differences can be balanced by future trades, so there's no point in GS giving Lego money, than vice versa, and so forth, for every "in-game" trade we make.
After things have settled with Lego, wtr to the tech trade program, i think it would be appropriate to raise the issue of combined anti-Bob military alliance. The Bobians will surely get stronger, as they have ample room and plenty of Iron (especially RP). Although Lego might have enough territory- keeping the other super powers (like RP) in check could be in their interest as well. A Lego expeditionary (diversion) force striking on RP's east coast, and ours on the western could put an end to the main competitor. ND and GoW have both left RP alone, also because of the large jungle that seperates them- i'm sure they can be convinced of leaving themselves out of it.

	28-03-2003 16:57									#110
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

I suggest that we mask our intentions by telling them that we hope they are prebuilding for Sun Tzu's because if we can get Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's then Bob would become a lot less dangerous to both of us.

	28-03-2003 21:07									#111
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good idea, Shiber, I'll try to fit it in. I would like to avoid answering questions on our wonders, that's why I want to squeeze the question in somewhere (like I did when asking lego for their research power), not making it a big point, but simply one of the smaller things that get chatted about. The Legos are easy, in that they follow a chat instead of leading one (at least they have done so far), which makes it possible, with a bit of preparation, to set the topics we want to discuss and avoid those we don't want mentioned.

Aeson: indeed, if RP goes for rep, it's quite likely they will finish a few turns after us, even the next turn if we have to give it to a few nations immediately. Chatting with them might be a good idea, and splitting the difference would certainly work. Who's RP's ambassador?

One problem on the NDAs though (I saw it while writing the PM): we didn't ask before that lego enforced an NDA on rep, and it makes sense for both of us to demand it, with one catch: if republic comes with a NDA, it's highly likely that either curr of constr will come with one too. We cannot risk that, we need to get these techs in time, not 10 turns after we get republic.

Keep the comments coming, guys, a lot of useful stuff in here

DeepO

	29-03-2003 16:28									#112
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Interesting message from Legoland.
Seems like they're pulling a fast one on us, asking for 80 gold to balance the deal (didn't they ask for 70 gold before?). Even though, I suggest that we forward the 80 gold along with Republic, but explain that we are not entirely pleased with the price that Lego have set.
We've got Sunday's chat to work on a deal for Vox's MT, and to coordinate our mutual research in the next era.

	29-03-2003 16:48									#113
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80 gold is totally unexpectable IMHO. Didn't they get we don't have any resale potential for currency?
we have agreed to give them the MT in a favourable price for them -what kind of favourable price do they give us on their techs- nothing! we have no resale value for Const. No resale for Currency.

The Legos don't seem to understand we're seeking a tech alliance- any difference can be balanced later on. I'm tempted to get into the chatroom and try to explain this to redstar, but we'll have to wait until sunday, i guess. (we'll have the time, so nothing to worry).

	29-03-2003 17:02									#114
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If Lego is portraying both Currency and Construction as things they've researched themselves (are they?), something seems to stink horribly. Lego's GNP is lower than what we have left over after corruption, and the culture graph gives no hint that they might have built a library. And if they just now got Currency, they can't have had marketplaces to help with their research. So it's hard to see how they could research a cost-20 tech and a cost-16 tech in less time than it took us to research a cost-28 tech. (Presumably, they hadn't started either Currency or Construction when they were planning to start on Republic themselves, which was after we started Republic.) Or do I have something in my timeline mixed up?

Nathan

	29-03-2003 17:17									#115
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I think they said they got construction from a hut.

	29-03-2003 17:19									#116
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Nathan, no matter what they say, I strongly doubt they researched constr. themselves.

As to the 80 gold: I don't agree either, but I advised before to let it drop, I can't keep pushing them without upsetting them.

One thing we need to check: beaker cost for constr+curr in game! How many teams got it by now?

my reply has been sent. Do I need to make an official poll for this, or does everyone agrees 80 gold is too much?

DeepO

	29-03-2003 17:47									#117
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I checked the research costs for Currency and Construction, and the results are as follows:

Currency is at least 343 and no more than 351.

Construction is at least 426 and no more than 432.

This is consistent with the same number of civs having both techs, and if I remember right, it's consistent with that being just one civ.

	29-03-2003 17:52									#118
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Thanks Nathan. So somehow, the legos got a hand on constr before someone else too... maybe 80 gold is not that bad...

I can explain to them it surprises us that they got both techs, given their lesser research potential, asking where the second one comes from... but I think I know the answer: there where (at least) 2 more huts on little Bob, one of those could have contained constr.

Still. I think the price is high, in chat we definately need to discuss options for further, more advantageous tech trades. I don't mind the legos saving cash, or gaining, but preferably that gain comes from Bob, and not from us

DeepO

	29-03-2003 18:01									#119
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Since we're dealing in second-researcher prices, 80 gold is actually not unreasonable. It's a little less than half the difference in second-researcher costs for the techs involved. Of course the fact that Lego is offering us only a so-so deal won't help our enthusiasm to give them great deals later.

	29-03-2003 18:12									#120
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Lego have told us by the diplomatic channels that they got Construction from a hut, so if we ask them again where they got it from, it would appear like we think they're lying; mistrust is not the message we are trying to convey here, so I would advise against it.
I've rethought the whole 80 gold thing, and I've come to the conclusion that we should refuse to their offer at the moment. Sunday's chat would make an excellent opportunity to explain to Lego that, as Zeit said, we are seeking a partner and we can balance this deal in future exchanges, and furthermore, that we're nobody's fools, and they can't simply pull a fast one on us like that, allowing themselves to set a high price for the tech just because they've just discovered the tech and there's no time left for discussions.
Let's finish Republic, and then start stockpiling gold until this thing is resolved and we can enter the next era, and then use that gold to rush a library or something. Btw, are we working on any deals for Republic with any of the Bobian civs?