23-02-2003 22:49									#1
	No Science Succession: Revenge of the Space Luddites Got spare money?

Well, in homage to the SGs' seriously tricky game, I present my latest concoction, a gauntlet thrown down to the veterans of the Academy .

Having played several starts, I can definitively say that it COULD be winnable

Parameters:
-MGE, large map, deity/raging/7 civs

Special conditions:
-Science setting must be kept at 0%.
-Only one government change allowed. The change can be to any government. Of course, an early government change might handicap us later on.

Victory condition: Alpha Centauri

I haven't played any turns because I did have to check the map to ensure there were AIs within contact range - so I'll jump in after a few others have played.

Post below if you want 'in'

1. Hydey
2. SG(2)
3. obiwan18
4. SCG
5. STYOM
6. SG[1]
7. Bloody Monk
8. Jrabbit
9. La Fayette
10. (or more, this is an AC game).

Play 20 turns, for now.

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 25-02-2003 at 23:16

	23-02-2003 22:51									#2
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And, the save file:

Attachment: nedludd.sav
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	23-02-2003 22:55									#3
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and a .zip file for rabbit people:

(forgot to mention - we begin with Ceremonial Burial as a starting tech. Either a leg up to Monarchy... or a chance to build Temples. Or both. )

Attachment: nedludd.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	23-02-2003 23:51									#4
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For a government change, republic might be a choice - not too far past monarchy techwise, but allows for the major trade payoffs along with less corruption and larger # of base cities. if we want to try and induce the AI to democracy, we could get the SOL and choose Fundy or Communism. The main problem with that is that Democracy is a long ways off and if we keep science at 0, as will it be with the AI (what sort of techs did the AI have in the no science sticky game before 1500 AD?)

As for playing, I'm still thinking about it - maybe somewhere in the middle of the order? I can just see myself being up in 3 Sxn games and being a minister in the Demo Game all at the same time

	24-02-2003 01:44									#5
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I tend to agree. Democracy - and thereby Communism/Fundy via SoL - seems a long, long way away. The seriously tricky game suggests that we could have a hard time in Despo, and it will be even slower work, getting to Demo, with no science.

On the plus side, the AI's haven't been 'enhanced' in this game. They might even trade with us

	24-02-2003 01:55									#6
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count Hydey in please

	24-02-2003 02:27									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Consider yourself counted in

	24-02-2003 05:06									#8
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SGs were discussing this one earlier. A really nasty player would revolt at 3850BC and choose Despotism. Well that's the goverment change over (SG[1] suggested Anarchy but then he's a RAR )

Go on I'm in ... thinks ... Republic is probably the best way to tackle this one ... science @ 0% those freights had better pull their weight.

--------------------------

SG(2)

	24-02-2003 06:15									#9
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Play list updated...

Yes, I had thought of the revolt-to-anarchy-and-choose-despotism-again trick

It would make sense to come to some sort of consensus on the desired government... rather than the player who discovers a new government tech simply changing governments unilaterally.

Of course... there would be endless fun to be had constructively criticizing the offender

	24-02-2003 07:21									#10
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Count me in Scuse Gits.

Why not try for the despotism-Fundy switch?

All we will need is Literacy, and the Great Library.

We could also try to invade and steal techs from the AI to help us get to Democracy.

Then we could pull off the SoL trick to get a Fundy government, and then run a 'soft' fundy like in the 'Hard Times' game.

Republic is plagued with corruption.

Democracy is too fragile and not conductive from a Despotism foundation.

	24-02-2003 07:25									#11
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... instead of the Institute we could have Government House and pile scorn on the unlucky resident.

--------------------

SG(2)

	24-02-2003 08:15									#12
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ok, I think i'm far enough down the list to say i'm in now

Great Library may help out, although MPE probably would work better, since we can more easily dictate what the AI researches with it.

Also, i figure having an early size 5 city and lots of exploration units will make a big difference It looks like our continent gerrymanders all over the place and reaches the south pole (followed the continent #13), so we may be able to get quite a few techs just in basic exploration. With enough huts, demo may be within reach for the SOL

	24-02-2003 09:27									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Play list updated. Hydey has the ball, and it seems we're already in disagreement as to which government to go for...

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Count me in Scuse Gits.

Yes, can I play too

Republic has a lot of corruption, yes, but it's the trade bonuses we want, and we can get them a lot sooner in Republic than in Demo/Fundy/Commie - all of which I feel would be better choices were they available sooner. One of the Sticky Mouse games had a nice Republican trade empire running, with an AC win at the end - that seems like a worthwhile plan to me.

Plus, to get the GL, we need to get Literacy (probably an AI will get it first)... then we need to get Demo and build SoL... doing all of this in Despotism

	24-02-2003 10:33									#14
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Sorry STYOM.

Republic's okay, but we'll be restricted in size. Remember we get no science, so the smaller the empire, the harder it will be to advance.

Literacy is a required tech for Republic. IF we go the republic route, we will still need to research literacy under a no-science despotism.



At least in the other succession game we get science even in a despotism.



It looks like we'll need GL or MPE to advance. We can always take them by force.

	24-02-2003 12:50									#15
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After having my fingers seriously burned in the 'Early Landing' game - i am rather loath to try another AC game, but what the hell - I'm in (if you'll have me). For my money it has to be Fundy or Commie - with No Science we MUST have an Empire - and we can't run a serious empire in Republic - the corruption would be insane.

* suggestion *
another game of two halves - a mad Despotic Sleaze supported by the Gardens - playing like RARs only allowing the AI to survive in zoos
Followed by High Priest or Comrade to the Stars

SG[1]

	24-02-2003 20:10									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My 2 cents worth... Celebrations should be very do-able in whatever government we're in. In Despotism, we can hopefully grab HG and celebrate most of our cities, which would then behave as if they were in a Monarchy.

In Republic... hopefully we would be able to grow our core cities to a large enough size so as to offset the corruption effects. Remember, we'll probably be able to run 60% luxuries or more.

@obiwan - no problem - see the ?

@SG[1] - play list updated, you're in. The plan sounds good in concept... I just wonder how long it'll take us to get to Demo/SoL, if we confine the AI's to zoo cities. Sure, we can pop huts... but getting all science from trade will be tough in Despo. We need the AIs to do at least some of the research work.

	24-02-2003 21:49									#17
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STYOM,

This looks like another excellent test you've dreamed up. I would like to be included. May need some advice on handling despo for so long though. The earlier I am, the less likely I would screw up the beginning.

Monk

	25-02-2003 12:19									#18
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My work/sleep cycle has been messed with again (thanks, boss). I think I'll kibitz from the sidelines.
@ RARs: "Oooo, icky corruption! Please, please, PLEASE don't stick us with Republic! (Psst, any of you guys remember how to build a Courthouse?)"

Many a game I've played with the restriction that I had couldn't advance beyond Republic just to be a challenge vs multiple Fundie AIs. The corruption just means that you must build Courthouses. For more distant outposts CH may be the second improvement built (or the first, if you've got HG or Mike or Bach).

Your Super Science Trade City will be near (or in) the Capital so your Spam caravans won't suffer too much. You'll have a core of well developed cities with low corruption (the homeland, as it were). You'll have plenty of AI cities to trade with, too.

	25-02-2003 18:43									#19
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Corruption in Despotism is far worse. Judging by the progress of the Seriously Tricky Game we will have 4 millennia of dire wastage ... and more when people forget the oedo years.

With Republic we can at least enjoy a stable form of government much sooner. With science @ 0% reaching Democracy for SoL is a long, long haul.

------------------------

SG(2)

	25-02-2003 19:10									#20
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Republic
Republic
Republic

Those are my three votes

How's the game going Hydey? Did you stick us in Monarchy?

	25-02-2003 19:45									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Please add rabbit to the menu...

At 15 turns ea., looks like the govt change will happen long before I'm in the loop.
But FWIW, I'd like to see early Republic -- just cuz I'm bad at it and would like to see how the Institute handles it.

Oh, and BTW -- glad to see an AC sxn game. :b

	25-02-2003 20:01									#22
	Play list updated... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. obiwan18
2. SG(2)
3. Hydey
4. SCG
5. STYOM
6. SG[1]
7. Bloody Monk
8. Jrabbit
9. La Fayette
10. Vlad Antlerkov

Several cities are down now - since there are a lot of us, let's drop to 12 turns.

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 26-02-2003 at 20:48

	25-02-2003 22:29									#23
	Got spare money?

Is it OK if I play after JRabbit?
(just to take care of the mess )

	25-02-2003 23:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Is it OK if I play after JRabbit? (just to take care of the mess )

You're in... and you'll probably have less mess to clean up than SG[1] will

Hopefully Hydey isn't having too much trouble setting science to 0 and moving those 2 settlers

	26-02-2003 02:39									#25
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Is it OK if I play after JRabbit? (just to take care of the mess )

It's comforting to know that, with Bloody Monk before me and La Fayette after, there's virtually nothing I can do to really screw this up.

Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence, La F...

	26-02-2003 02:41									#26
	sorry Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

been busy, can't play till thursday evening (aussie time) so if 2 wants to swap i will be happy

	26-02-2003 03:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence, La F...

I know that you are in contact with those guys named Ming and Rah.
Hence I am fairly sure that you have strong defence against a few arrows from my feeble archers .

	26-02-2003 04:12									#28
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I started the last Despo-Democracy sxn game.

Shall I start this as well or wait for Hydey?

	26-02-2003 04:29									#29
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Go for it, obiwan...

I'll adjust the play list. If Hydey plays Thursday, Git(2) can play Friday...

.. and we might have 2 Gits on the case. Are 2 intoxicated Gits better than one sober Git?

I like the idea of wandering & picking up huts before founding... but then if I wanted to do that I should have played first

	26-02-2003 06:14									#30
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Merci, STYOM

*polishes lightsaber*