02-10-2003 10:31									#271
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Not only I don't find this an optimal solution, like you said, Zargon, but I find it totally unacceptable. Any solution involving GS gaining land on Bob is utterly out of question for me.

This "GS want only to prevent ND to win the game" is such a crap. They want to prevent anyone winning this game, except them. Isn't this what everybody wants? "They want land on Bob because otherwise they can't win". Duh, of course, and this exactly why LEF is on Bob, to prevent GS from winning.

What RP is obviously trying to do, is to convince us to join them in this war. Not only I think that this is against our interest, but I also have personal reasons: I want RP to pay for their attitude during this game. They can't treat us well in one chat and hope that we will suddenly fall in love and adore RP.

	02-10-2003 10:41									#272
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quote: Arnelos> In other words, RP would agree to trade and be friendly with Lego

Facts, not words, please.
They could and should have done it earlier, not now when they are dying. Their promises means zero. Nothing. Nil. We know exactly how the RP diplomacy worked and how RP trade proposals looked in the past. No, thank you, I'd rather "live" in a RP-free world.

	02-10-2003 11:05									#273
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quote: Not only I don't find this an optimal solution, like you said, Zargon, but I find it totally unacceptable. Any solution involving GS gaining land on Bob is utterly out of question for me.

Don't worry, Tiberius, I don't really think it's optimal either. Nor do I even think it's possible. Honor Code or no, I'm willing to believe that GS would stomp RP into the ground if they won the war to claim Bob for themselves. If it looked like a path to victory, they'd take it.

I feel kind of bad for Arnelos, because he was gone when RP diplo went so, so wrong. He's clearly trying to mend fences now, and while I appreciate that, I don't think RP is going to be around long enough for it to pay off

	02-10-2003 11:18									#274
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GS doesn't need to stomp RP. RP are so weak that they are no longer a threat. GS want to stomp GoW and RP because they are a potential threat. Just imagine how much land GS would have on Bob, should they win this war. I suppose that "the small land GS would get" north from RP is currently known as ND

	02-10-2003 11:24									#275
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Don't worry, Tiberius, I don't really think it's optimal either.

Well, why did you say it then? They are probably still assuming that you are the President and that you can convince us to do what you want, while we know this isn't true

	02-10-2003 13:54									#276
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I'd like to pick up on a couple of things Arnelos said which point to another reason why we are on the side we are...

He says that GOW and ND (GOW in particular) are committed to military action. He also says that come RR we will be able to defend Lego easily.

Well in essence this is what we want. We want to be impregnible in our own lands, we want others to see us that way. We also want the other teams to be too preoccupied with military to be bothered about building, because we want a spaceship victory.

Surely in trying to argue the reasons we should join RP/GS, he's given us exactly the excuse we need not to...

	02-10-2003 17:18									#277
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OK, read through the chatlog... just a couple of comments:

Z, it is completely up to you... but I'd suggest being a bit more careful about expressing agreement about what the other party says (like that 'optimal solution' part). Sometimes, your comments, which we know are largely meant as a formality or simply maintaining polite conversation, may lead the other party into believeing you like the ideas presented and support them. While I am not saying it is a bad thing overall and under every circumstances, it can later, when the other party finds out how things really are, be held against you personally (or even against the team).

Even if I do not care about whether RP FAM is mad at us or not, it's always better to avoid 'misunderstandings' of this kind. I am not mentioning this specifically because of this chat, because you did well, cleverly avoiding the need to tell Arnelos what kind of a power setup we are preferring on Bob. Just keep it in your mind when talking to other teams... it has bitten you/us in the past (with the GoW tech deal) and I can see it's sort of your habit to talk in this manner.

Not meant as a rant, really - I am mentioning it here especially because it has not really done any harm this time... allowing for a point made not in anger or displeasure.

And now regarding the chat:

I have to say I really dislike the way RPers act. They seem to be the least honourable, least noble team of this whole game. Just think of it - in this chat, they are in fact plotting against GS, which is the team that has helped them survive. I know, GS had other reasons to intervene, too, but I still find it very difficult to swallow. It is as if Voxes started plotting against us. I believe that when you lose, you shall admit it, and if you are left alive, it's imperative you do not turn against the one that left you alive or - even worse - against the one that helped you survive. :shrug:

Arnelos is in fact trying to persuade us that a "stable" world involves Bob divided between them, GS (but not much ...), and Vox (and maybe ND and GoW, if they are "reasonable" ...). Do you find this idea as crazy as I do? I think Bob split in half between ND and GoW is MUCH more stable. Neither of the Bobian powers would risk attacking the other one, as, obviously, non-Bobian powers would immediately intervene. Neither of non-Bobian powers will be in a position to invade Bob once RRs appear... I believe that THAT is what best suits our plans (no surprise, as that's the plan we currently follow), as we are fairly confident we will be able to outbuild GoW & ND, while not having to care about GS. There is no room for RP in this equation.

Second, Arnelos is trying to persuade us that the war is going well. Not sure if he really believes that or is just pretending it, but we know the war is NOT going well for them - and that it will get worse soon with the arrival of GoW/ND muskets.

Third, Arnelos has been kind enough to assure us RPers would be willing to be friendly to and trade with us. BEG YOUR PARDON? I've always thought there was a treaty binding them to be our friends and trading partners! I'd bet my last cent on that RPers would turn against us the very first moment they could gain from it. There is no other team as untrustworthy as them... Tibi puts it right - deeds, not words.

And redstar makes another excellent point - with other teams committed to warring and us happily building, the world is just wonderful.

All in all... I believe this chat has been yet another example of an RP diplomat trying to pull something that cannot really be pulled... something based upon quite incorrect assumptions - and possibly using arguments which only fools would believe.

I am just looking forward to seeing Aggie posting "save sent to Vox" soooo much...

	02-10-2003 20:38									#278
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I don't entirely believe Arnelos or RP either - though I think several of us have thought that RP's demise may not happen if GS evacuates them to the former Vox area.

I don't like the notion that they are already talking about an anti-GS idea - talk about biting the hand that feeds them...

That being said I am growing more concerned about us perhaps helping create a monster that we can't handle in helping GoW and ND. From the ISDG and from GoW actions in the PTWDG1, it is becoming more clear that GoW and ND are welded together at the hip - a nearly unbreakable alliance. We can't allow them to control all of Bob IMHO - their capacity for growth, commerce and shields would vastly outnumber ours.

I am also worried that now that it is known that GS has no easy access to saltpeter, that the Bob alliance may be regarding us as their remaining threat - as we do have saltpeter, more territory and vastly more shield capacity than GS (even they can see that from their maps).

	02-10-2003 22:17									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe That being said I am growing more concerned about us perhaps helping create a monster that we can't handle in helping GoW and ND. From the ISDG and from GoW actions in the PTWDG1, it is becoming more clear that GoW and ND are welded together at the hip - a nearly unbreakable alliance. We can't allow them to control all of Bob IMHO - their capacity for growth, commerce and shields would vastly outnumber ours.

I, too, believe GoW and ND are cooperating very closely, beyond what their own selfish goals would cover... and that they do trust each other. However, I'm not all that concerned about them controlling the whole of Bob. Bob is about twice the size of Legos Major - so, if they split Bob into two halves of approximately the same size, they would only get what we already have (and what we have been developing since Turn 1 - unlike them). Their COMBINED potential would be something to worry about, if we were to face it alone. But if you combine their potential, you must combine also the potential of the rest of the world. And I am fairly confident that us, Vox, and GS would be just the proper counterbalance.

ATM, we are able to match or nearly match both GoW and ND in all aspects... and they are in their GA, while we are not! That says a lot.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I am also worried that now that it is known that GS has no easy access to saltpeter, that the Bob alliance may be regarding us as their remaining threat - as we do have saltpeter, more territory and vastly more shield capacity than GS (even they can see that from their maps).

Now, out of the remaining teams, we would be the strongest rival, that's correct. However, that's exactly why we would be the LAST target... they know very well that we would be a very tough nut to crack - and the very minute they turn hostile, we gift saltpeter to GS... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND).

Now, I do not think that ANY hostile action from their side is technically possible within a foreseeable future. GoW and ND will have tough time getting rid of RP, they will lose many units, spend a lot of gold, their whole GA... while we are happily building our a$$es off here, with all those aqueducts, workers, and whatnot...

While carefully watching the situation is definitely a must, I do not think anything prompts a change in our mid-term strategy. Let's make sure GS does not gain any foothold on Bob - up to the extent of having Bob divided between GoW and ND only. With RP gone, GS cut to size, and ND and GoW facing the rebuild phase, we will have time enough to respond to whatever might happen we currently cannot foresee.

Keep in mind that even after GoW and ND conquer the whole of Bob, they will have to (re)settle it, redistribute their cities, build infrastructure in them, develop the surrounding lands - and until THAT is done (quite some time, as only GoW is industrious), they will be extremely vulnerable, as undeveloped lands are easier to invade than fully (rail)roaded terrain with (barracked) cities conveniently placed all along the border/coast.

Another point worth making: GS is weak or no threat only as long as having no saltpeter. Give them 'peter and they are a power to consider. Weaker than us, but still something you cannot leave unchecked in your backyard. So - as long as we are with GoW and ND, they do not have to fear GS that much (at least I hope so). But if they turn against us, we help GS quickly rise to power again (not that I would be dying to get that far).

	03-10-2003 01:22									#280
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Just one thing to make a point on, and it adds to what I said earlier....

"... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND)."

This is efffictively incorrect. It relies on the statistics only. The reality will be very different, they will have to attack us. They will have to get past the Lego navy, they will have to get past well defended cities and they will have to get past large counter offensive forces backed by artillery and railroads

	03-10-2003 13:12									#281
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Just one thing to make a point on, and it adds to what I said earlier.... "... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND)." This is efffictively incorrect. It relies on the statistics only. The reality will be very different, they will have to attack us. They will have to get past the Lego navy, they will have to get past well defended cities and they will have to get past large counter offensive forces backed by artillery and railroads

That's correct - but I was speaking more about the power of economy... ability to (out)research, (out)build etc. It goes without saying that their military losses would be tremendous, as I believe such an invasion cannot really happen before we lay at least the basic RR network.

	03-10-2003 23:02									#282
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack It goes without saying that their military losses would be tremendous, as I believe such an invasion cannot really happen before we lay at least the basic RR network.

I disagree here. ND and GoW will have quite an attack force of Knight UUs and Catapults left over from this war; an attack force that can upgrade to Cavalry and Cannons. I think we should plan for an invasion, using Cav loaded on either Caravels or Galleys, shortly before we get to RRs. Unless, of course, ND and GoW both decide to go the building path on Bob, but I don't see that as likely. As stated in this thread, there's not much chance of them catching up to us, so I bet at least one will try to bring us down, and they'll strike before we get our best defensive weapon: RRs.

Time to build those Knights for upgrade to counter-offensive Cavs!

	21-10-2003 04:52									#283
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PM from Arnelos

quote: Kloreep, (copy of message sent to ZargonX) Despite our victory this turn against some GoW riders, it is apparent that we cannot stand against the hordes. Between GS and RP, we simply do not have the forces to stop them from sweeping Southern Bob. Through the majority of the war, they have kept so many riders stacked together that we can only hope to wound some, most of which retreat. Only a few have we killed. From what we have heard and what we have seen, we suspect that GoW and ND possess UU's totalling more than 30 each, almost all of which are likely to survive the current war to claim all of Bob for their two civs. Should such an enormous force of UU's survive this war, it would be relatively easy for them to build fleets for the invasion of Legos and Stormia. Given that the GoW is dedicated to winning the game by force of arms, this is their goal, irregardless of what hollow claims they may make to other civilizations. Afterall, GoW was still officially allied to RP when they attacked. Should they see an opportunity to strike Stormia and Legos to win the game, they will not hesitate to do so. The same goes for ND and these two allies seem far closer to each other than RP and GS, or anyone to Lego. If Legoland is interested in preventing an ND/GoW victory over all of Bob, it is imperative that you act now or never. I am not waxing melodramatic when I say that RP could very well be wiped off of Bob in the next few turns, along with GS holdings in Southern Bob. Despite the small victories we have been afforded recently, the odds are simply too overwhelming. Once they bring their full army off healthy UUs to bear, the most we can hope to do is slow them down. There is one thing that might give us a chance to actually hold Southern Bob and that is gunpowder, which we are aware that you possess. Since we may not have a source of saltpeter already linked, it may be necessary (on a temporary basis) to provide that as well if you have it. Aside from the obvious benefit of preventing ND and GoW from claiming all of Bob with plenty of Riders and Ansar Warriors left over to invade other continents, if you are willing to substantially aid us, we can offer you future binding agreements to provide our luxuries to you when we regain our land as well as an offer from GS to provide you with incense (of which they have extra). I have spoken to GS about that and they seem willing to provide their incense to Legoland in return for RP having a fighting chance to itself. In terms of other conditions upon such an agreement, we can understand if you have certain concerns about whether gunpowder would be shared with GS, something which we are fully willing to negotiate with you. In short, our position is truly desperate and we're willing to take aid where we can get it, how we can get it. It may even be possible to get GS to agree to such an arrangement (I have begun discussing this with them). In terms of other issues, I have already told you what our goals in this war are and how I believe the interests of Lego, RP, Vox, and GS to contain ND and GoW while retaining the balance of power could all be achieved without imperiling Legoland's long-term interests. I have also laid out how the rest of the game could be played from that point and GS seems entirely open to this possibility, should we be able to sign a treaty to its effect. I believe it possible to sign such a treaty and to ensure that it is honored. So I would greatly appreciate it if I was able to discuss these matters with Legoland this evening in chat. I would also be highly appreciative if Legoland, when they do receive the save, HOLD the save until your consultative decision-making body is able to come to a decision on matters and thus still have time to act on such a decision, should you decide how I might hope. Thank You. - Prince Regent Francisco Clemente, Duque de Madrid, Chief Ambassador of the Spanish Crown

	21-10-2003 06:09									#284
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Oh, I guess you go it too Points of interest:

-They know we have gunpowder (which we expected)
-They know they are doomed
-Does GS know we have troops on Bob? Aeson mentioned it in his post, but I couldn't tell if he was speaking hypotetically or not. You'd think they would have contacted us if they actually knew...

	21-10-2003 06:17									#285
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Oh, I guess you go it too Points of interest: -They know they are doomed

IIRC, he says nothing about GS evacuating the to former Voxland. But certainly doomed on Bob, yes.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX -Does GS know we have troops on Bob? Aeson mentioned it in his post, but I couldn't tell if he was speaking hypotetically or not. You'd think they would have contacted us if they actually knew...

Considering Aeson is not on GS anymore, he must be speaking hypothetically.

	21-10-2003 08:15									#286
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I don't think they know that we have troops on Bob.

I don't think they can share GP with GS. I don't think the game let's you do second hand trades. So GS would not get the GP.

That said, I don't see how this can work. Yes, I would like to give RP the GP but they are at war with our allies. I don't see how we can tell GoW and ND, "Yes we are your friends. By the way, we have given your enemy GP." That puts us in an uncomfortable position; playing both sides.

We have thrown our lot with GoW and ND. So we are better off staying the course and not play politics.

So how do we respond to Arenelos? I don't know...I'll leave that up to someone else.

	21-10-2003 10:11									#287
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Too bad they didn't use this kind of attitude towards us until now. I'm talking about actually giving something, not just demanding all kind of stuff.

It is too late. There's nothing we can do and we don't want to do anything. We can even be sincere in this regard. We could tell them: "Sorry guys, too late. The horse has gone".

PS Btw, I got the PM too.

	21-10-2003 11:53									#288
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Well... I can only agree with others. It's too late.

It's absolutely impossible to give gunpowder to RP. We acquired the tech under certain terms and those terms, even if not written, clearly forbid providing gp to RP or GS. It's as easy as that. Pretending otherwise would be most dishonourable.

Besides... giving gunpowder to RP would not help a bit. They have no source they can hook up and use. Nor has GS. We'd have to provide it together with the resource - and we do not have it connected yet, plus, they would have to hold in Barcelona (which is unlikely).

They are doomed.

We allied with GoW and ND. The goal of this alliance, clearly stated at its very beginning, was to make sure RP and GS are driven off Bob. Now that it seems the goal is within the reach, we should rejoice and not feel bad about RPers... their "better" attitude came too late - and I am not even 100% convinced it's honest.

We had very good reasons to ally with GoW & ND against RP & GS. Let's not forget those - they still apply.

Unless someone else WANTS to take the job, I will arrange a chat with Arnelos today evening and tell him the bad news. Using his wording... Lego will never help RP...

	21-10-2003 19:55									#289
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Well, I think Arnelos is being honest, I think he just had the misfortune of stepping in to try and fix the diplomatic minefield Togas left for him. Regardless, giving them GP would be useless for them, harmful for us. I would make the following points in chat:

-Tell them giving them GP is not going to help them.
-Explain we'd rather get GP to GS on our own terms, not have them turn around and gift it.
-We are not providing military or economic aid to either GoW or ND (true), thus we can't hurt them that way.
-Our military is defense-based, so we won't be attacking GoW or ND to assist them.

At that point, they should realize there really isn't anything we can do to save them that wouldn't harm ourselves, which we certainly wouldn't be doing. If he is still pleading, tell HIM to propose something then, other than just showing up begging for us to come up with something.

	22-10-2003 02:24									#290
	Increase the size of your Attachments

He has proposed something, us gifting GP... I think we've pansied around RP enough and we should tell them straight out that there is nothing we can do, and nothing we want to do....

We can even spell out the reasons if we like....

	22-10-2003 02:35									#291
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Just finished the chat with Arnelos, the log will be up shortly.

	22-10-2003 02:55									#292
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quote: Session Start: Tue Oct 21 22:31:22 2003 Session Ident: Arnelos vondrack: Hello! Arnelos: hey vondrack: I have no good news for you Arnelos: so I figured vondrack: said very briefly, Legoland is not going to help vondrack: actually vondrack: more or less, the only help possible would be direct military intervention vondrack: and we are not going to do that Arnelos: I seem to think that Gunpowder would give us a fighting chance vondrack: I understand you would believe so vondrack: but it's not true Arnelos: at the very least, it might bleed GoW and ND some more UUs Arnelos: and that can't hurt anyone but them Arnelos: so I have been lead to believe vondrack: the map generator screwed some teams big time vondrack: speaking about saltpeter, that is vondrack: though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant vondrack: the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits Arnelos: is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no? vondrack: has nothing to do with our involvement in the war vondrack: ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way vondrack: enough vondrack: though quite inconveniently located vondrack: but that's, as I said, not the reason for withholding our help Arnelos: you're allied to GoW Arnelos: which, if I dare say so, will eventually come back to bite you vondrack: I am sorry, I cannot answer questions regarding alliances Legoland may or may not be part of Arnelos: vondrack: if it was a question, that is... Arnelos: We've actually believed you were allied with GoW for quite some time now Arnelos: QUITE some time Arnelos: here's the thing... you guys helping GoW made a ton of sense, I will admit, when GS entered the war to help us Arnelos: but that's no longer true Arnelos: GS and RP are not winning this war Arnelos: until GoW and ND are re-contained, you run the very real risk that you will help them break out and eventually even threaten you Arnelos: keeping Bob weak and divided would seem the superior option vondrack: it's difficult for me to discuss these things - as I have said, I can't confirm nor deny that we may or may not be allied/friendly/unfriendly/hostile towards another team vondrack: so, let's talk academic Arnelos: my team is on the brink of either surviving or being killed off... I have no time for academic discussions... you're allied with GoW. I'm trying to tell you, reasonably, that this is no longer a policy which fits your interests. That it happens to be hurting us as well is why I'm saying it, of course. Arnelos: but that doesn't prevent it from being true, either Arnelos: fact is, if ND and GoW actually *win* this war, which is looking much more likely, they will have the power to start looking for other targets Arnelos: and, to be perfectly honest, Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship vondrack: Arnelos, let's not get into this, please vondrack: there is, I am sorry, nothing you can do to change things Arnelos: there is, you're simply choosing not to exercise it Arnelos: the bone-crushing momentum of previous policy vondrack: I meant that you, Arnelos (and for that matter, even me, vondrack), cannot do anything to change the Legoland's decision Arnelos: YOU can't change it? vondrack: it's not that we would be hesitating, still waging pros and cons Arnelos: I have been lead to believe otherwise. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't vondrack: explain, please vondrack: do you think I have any special powers in Legoland? Arnelos: Legoland retains the power of freedom of action... you have it within your power to change course. That you are choosing not to is a choice of your own volition. No-one is forcing you to hold to the present course, with the dangers that lay ahead. vondrack: oh, yes, that's true Arnelos: I happen to believe that you are one of the principle individuals opposed to changing course... multiple individuals from Legoland have mentioned this... that the main obstacle to changing Legoland policy is you. vondrack: ummm... things in Legoland are decided by polls vondrack: my vote is as important as any other Arnelos: while true, apparently you hold more weight over other people's votes than you might assume vondrack: like I can influence them? Arnelos: votes are decided as much by convincing arguments as by anything else vondrack: well, that is often true Arnelos: look... I understand that I come to you as a highly biased source. I obviously have a vested interest in my own team's survival.... that said... Arnelos: that said, it's still true, as I see it, that Legoland is encouraging a dangerous future for itself by continuing to support the Glory of War. It has the rather troubling potential of coming back to bite you. Arnelos: I'm not making that up vondrack: I understand your concerns. But Legoland is not taking its future lightly. We have been discussing the situation quite a bit. vondrack: And the result was vondrack: (it changed radically after GS entered the war) vondrack: that we chose to not assist you vondrack: it may have been the wrong thing to do Arnelos: the point is... there is an option you could exercise that would have significantly less chance of biting you back. The word of Gathering Storm is their bond. We have found that they have performed to every letter of our treaties with them. We are willing to do the same... we have little left to gain by not doing so. Arnelos: I have discussed the matter with Gathering Storm and they seem willing to sign a treaty with Legoland in which they would bind themselves to an honorable non-aggression agreement if Legoland would cease support for GoW and instead work with us Arnelos: the key of the matter is that where GoW would violate such an agreement in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself, our teams would not Arnelos: I believe we can achieve a genuine commitment to ending the game in a peaceable fashion vondrack: Arnelos, I am sorry I cannot give you an answer that would make you happier - but I am here communicating the stance of my team (though not denying it's my own, too) vondrack: we heard your proposals, your arguments vondrack: you may be right vondrack: we admit that vondrack: but still, we made our minds vondrack: and we are not going to change the decision Arnelos: hmm Arnelos: I suppose the best I can hope for is that at some point in the not too distant future, I may yet be a member of Legoland myself when RP goes down vondrack: vondrack: not sure if you'd enjoy our "social life" Arnelos: lol vondrack: sometimes it takes days between posts... Arnelos: sounds like RP of late Arnelos: well, until the game started moving agian vondrack: that's because of the bug, yes vondrack: but even when the game is going on vondrack: the forum is not all that busy Arnelos: yeah, I think the PTWDG, in general, has slowed over the past 2 months... Arnelos: activity has fallen, sapped by other pursuits vondrack: true vondrack: I have to admit that my interest in DGs vondrack: is getting weaker and weaker... vondrack: I find it difficult vondrack: to pitch myself against other people - not only ingame enemies, but even against my teammates vondrack: if we disagree on something vondrack: (and there were a LOT of times this happened in Lego) Arnelos: indeed Arnelos: on any team Arnelos: hell, we've had two attempted revolutions on this team vondrack: btw - I love your ISDG turnlogs Arnelos: yeah, I only got to do 2 of them Arnelos: thanks vondrack: as much as I just fear BigFree's... Arnelos: lol Arnelos: that was actually a point of rather high argument in RP in 280 A.D. last turn Arnelos: because the turn had to be replayed Arnelos: BigFree hadn't really recorded what he did very well vondrack: yeah vondrack: Arnelos: so I had to get Trip to look at Vox's save and use the reload bug to see where BigFree moved our units vondrack: vondrack: I managed to have Lego players make very detailed records vondrack: besides, it's almost always either me or Zargon Arnelos: meanwhile, I was pissed as hell that our units had moved where they did... the current battle between GoW and RP is the result... that battle should have never happened... Aggie is right to taunt us, I'm just trying to hold face and repair what damage I can vondrack: oh? was it a team decision? Arnelos: that said, thankfully GoW still underestimates our defenses Arnelos: no vondrack: hehe - watch your words... if we are allied to GoW... Arnelos: BigFree moved the units, then we held the save for a bit... then Togas signed on, repeated BigFRee's moves and just sent it to the next team without a turnchat or even looking at it himself.... he said it had been 24 hours and we just needed to send on the save... it was a stupid move Arnelos: GoW took advantage of the situation, of course vondrack: oops... Arnelos: but that's behind us... we're making the best of our current situation Arnelos: alrighty, I should go post in our forum and move on the game vondrack: ok, hope to meet you again under more cheerful circumstances Arnelos: perhaps so Arnelos: either things may go better than I believe they will, or, if they go badly (as I expect in the long run), I may yet join in you Legoland vondrack: I will personally vote for you to be adopted Arnelos: vondrack: though... maybe you should thence restrict yourself to reading only SOME threads... Arnelos: and vondrack... something else to mention... vondrack: yes? Arnelos: Keep in mind that I was not active on RP team from the time we made contact with Legoland (which I had worked on with sending you guys the minimaps of Bob) and the GoW/ND-RP war Arnelos: it seems to me that a lot of history happpened in there Arnelos: most of it not good vondrack: most of, actually... vondrack: yes vondrack: that's why I understand that you are trying to fix things now and feel bad for not being able to help you out Arnelos: ah vondrack: but things moved a lot while you were away vondrack: an awful lot happened Arnelos: yeah, it sounds to me like our team made way too much of a big deal out of that start-of-game agreement.... it may not be a good idea to sign those in future games... a good leason to learn vondrack: well - the only problem I can see vondrack: might be that you thought the deal was something different from what we thought it was vondrack: we though it was two-way, mutual Arnelos: it was a bit vague Arnelos: ah.... Arnelos: I see vondrack: yes, it must have been, I guess Arnelos: the whole thing was like 4 lines vondrack: but the thing is that many times, we felt as if RP saw it as one-way (as in "you still pay for getting Carthage") vondrack: I made a very lame attempt at explaining that in the ISDG thread - but spoiled the whole thing by the part on Togas vondrack: I later regretted that post a lot Arnelos: in effect, the agreement was the "price" for Legoland getting Carthage... which is my point. I don't think establishing a debter-debtee relationship like that at the start of the game was productive for relations... especially when our team harped on it vondrack: ah, so - RP _did_ see it as a debter-debtee? Arnelos: yes Arnelos: that was the team's understanding of the treaty Arnelos: that it was the price for Carthage vondrack: do you have the wording of the treaty somewhere? Arnelos: sure... lemme get that Arnelos: We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading). Arnelos: In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above. Arnelos: Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations. Arnelos: Signed in 4000 BC vondrack: yes, that's the text I have always been referring to as well vondrack: so that was not the problem vondrack: the problem is - when you read through it vondrack: what actually came to fruition? Arnelos: I'd agree that RP made more of the "most favored nation" thing than they should have... harped on it way too much. That said, many on RP remain resentful in the present conflict of the non-aggression portion (not joining another at war with RP) Arnelos: in all, the treaty just didn't work vondrack: the problem is it is not a war of RP against GoW+ND vondrack: not only Arnelos: too vague and too binding on future action vondrack: the GS bit messed things badly vondrack: agreed vondrack: trading civs pre-game for something ingame is just no-no for any future games Arnelos: agreed vondrack: especially if that something is vaguely defined Arnelos: a good lesson learned, as I said vondrack: pity you have to pay so many hours for such a lesson Arnelos: well, I should probably get going, since I have other things to do today. As for you, it's what? 10:30 or 11:30 p.m. there? vondrack: 11:30pm Arnelos: alright, thanks for the chat, even if it didn't work out as hoped vondrack: yeah - take care vondrack: good night Arnelos: cya Session Close: Tue Oct 21 23:28:38 2003

	22-10-2003 03:03									#293
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I do not think this needs to be commented. It was one of the unpleasant duties I have had to do in this game.

Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I have thought the team decision over the involvement in the war was... unanimous? And I can recall only Steve proposing major changes after we discovered gunpowder - and that was only/mostly academical, summing up our options, as I understood it.

Even if the things here are not really decided by polls, I believe we hold something like "informal polls" in the discussion threads...

Is there anyone seriously preferring to break our alliance promises to GoW/ND and coming to RP's aid?

	22-10-2003 03:31									#294
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I think he was just harping on old discussions. I think all of our joking around about you and Steve being at each other's throats makes him think you're some sort of conservative monster

	22-10-2003 03:36									#295
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I made my decision many turns ago and have stuck with it. I support the GoW/ND alliance.

But of course, I always blame everything on Vondrack

	22-10-2003 03:43									#296
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops But of course, I always blame everything on Vondrack

Way to go, Leo!

	22-10-2003 05:34									#297
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I do see you as being one of the more pro-ND/GoW people on the team, but that's not a bad thing; nor does it necessarily mean I disagree with you. I think you just see the alliance as longer-term than I do. I don't know why Arnelos thinks that though; probably because of the vondrack-Sharpe jokes.

	22-10-2003 09:08									#298
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I wasn't around for the start of the alliance, but if I had I would of been more for the pushing out of GS from bob and just trimming RP as 3 nations on bob is better then just 2. As for the "several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course" I don't know where he got that from, though I do think you have a good deal of influance on the team.

	22-10-2003 12:43									#299
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Nimitz I wasn't around for the start of the alliance, but if I had I would of been more for the pushing out of GS from bob and just trimming RP as 3 nations on bob is better then just 2.

I believe that would have been the choice for all of us - alas, this option was not actually available. Not helping GoW & ND carried a serious implied risk of having them fall to GS in the long run, effectively allowing GS to win the game.

If we wanted to prevent that, there was, more or less, only one other choice - to get in bed with them. We DID limit our involvement in the war quite strictly. We said we'd join no military actions against RP (though it would be ridiculous to pretend that our involvement was not hostile towards RP and in fact against the spirit of the pre-game treaty) and that we'd not join invasion of Stormia. But other than that, we had to make our choice - sleeping in two beds at the same time means you are not really in any of them. So we chose to work towards a 2-civ Bob, which we hope to be able to handle peacefully (outbuilding both GoW and ND in the long run).

It's pretty much the same situation at this very moment. We can see GoW & ND will probably win even without our extensive help. But while changing sides just to "keep the balance and fuel the war" might benefit us short term, it would harm our reputation long-term.

At the moment, we have one team indebted and I hope honestly friendly to us (Vox), wishing to help us win. We have 2 more teams very friendly to us, at least for now and the foreseeable future (GoW & ND). These 2 teams are economically little threat to the never-struck-by-war Legoland empire (even combined). And then we have two teams that we have always been having troubles with - RP (soon to leave the game it seems) and GS (so far our main competitor for the victory in this game).

When RP is dead and the alliance goals achieved (GS cut to size on Stormia), we will be the key to the world's balance of power (thanks to how the saltpeter deposits are distributed). Without our approval, GoW & ND will have little chance to invade Stormia successfully - as our saltpeter would turn it into Fortress Stormia (plus, we would be free to attack from the West).

Changing sides NOW would only mean we would make two teams (GoW & ND) very angry at us, while gaining little love from GS & RP - as they would likely view our decision as self-interest driven, thus establishing very little "debt" (and would turn against us any time in the future, I suspect). OTOH, since there is no or very little (immediate, at least) benefit to supporting GoW & ND now (as opposed to 20 turns ago), it DOES help our trustworthiness and long-term bonds with these teams.

And frankly - with Vox being our little brother, GoW & ND being sort of indebted to us (the gunpowder thing is a MAJOR one, especially if you add NOT providing saltpeter to RP/GS) and having the whole of Bob to (re)settle and improve, GS cut to size on Stormia and RP gone... where is any threat to us? In case Bobians try to be naughty, we equip GS with saltpeter and the balance of power is back (the only caveat being GS deliberately NOT helping us, which I, however, not consider probable, given how relations have developed in this game).

So, to sum things up - I don't say we'd gain nothing by breaking the alliance. It's a valid and perhaps even fine option in terms of coldblooded calculations. But the possible gain is far less than what I believe is the "price of our honour". It's not that the only way to win this game is to break our alliance now. I strongly believe we can win even if remaining honourable and true to our current allies.

So, let's avoid backstabbing, at least for the moment. I happen to believe we can afford it.

	01-05-2004 19:30									#300
	Role Play Corresponadnace and Foreign Affairs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: ZargonX, I'm sending messages out to the leaderships of the various teams notifying them of my position as turnplayer and leader of RP Team during Togas' absence. I may also have a heightened role after Togas' return, don't know. Please send all diplomatic traffic/requests for RP Team to me for now. Thanks. - Arnelos